Let's try a new way of discussing immigration..

[deinstein]

The problem as that immigration should be based on supply and demand. The quotas should match this and updated annually in consideration to the needs of our economy. If you did this, the country benefits from immigration and at the same time the immigrants would be legal, therefore paying tax money as well.

[kakie]

The number one issue for me is not clarifying between illegal immigration and legal immigration.  If you blend these two issues together you are not discussing the issue correctly, IMO.

[S.]

Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!  

I'm with EdW.  This is what I perceive to be the critical issue that needs to be addressed first and foremost.  Other issues are by-products of this main issue, and will take care of themselves if this issue is dealt with.

It's a very old issue, as someone else mentioned.  The difference now is people are coming from Mexico instead of Ireland, etc.  

quote:Originally posted by Ed W

Immigration has been a hot button issue in this country since the Irish potato famine in the 1840s (?) if not sooner.  Successive waves of immigrants arrived here for much the same reason - the economic opportunity that a good job brings.  The Poles, Jews, Chinese and Italians all faced the same anti-immigrant biases.  The present 'hot issue' of immigration is hardly new.

But if Marx was right about all conflict originating from economic reasons, then there's an economic solution to the problem of immigration.  Simply eliminate the low-paying jobs that 'real' Americans won't take by passing legislation that heavily penalizes employers of illegals.  Wages will rise until under-employed citizens see the jobs as a realistic alternative to lesser paying jobs.  

How much would they have to pay for any one of us to take a job in a meat cutting plant or as a field hand?  And how much would you be willing to see your grocery prices rise as a result?

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

The problem as that immigration should be based on supply and demand. The quotas should match this and updated annually in consideration to the needs of our economy. If you did this, the country benefits from immigration and at the same time the immigrants would be legal, therefore paying tax money as well.

The kind of immigrants we really need are skilled workers. Today's industry does not have much of a need for un-skilled or un-educated workers. Much of the unskilled work is going to China. People really need more than just a high-school education to make it in todays world. What they plan to do with millions of illegals when they make them legal is beyond me, and it will slam the taxpayers hard. For every dollar an illegal earns it costs the taxpayers about $2-$3.00 in socal services (or about $22,000 a year per illegal alien). The nation will go broke. We cannot afford floods of immigrants who can't pay their own way, and the jobs are not there for waves and waves of immigrants..

[S.]

And yes, my post is WAY too simplified, given the topic.  But I think employers conducting themselves legally is a good place to start.  Seems like they add the most fuel to the fire.  The other issues are the other issues.  I just picked one because that's what the idea behind the thread was.  

As an aside, most of the people I've encountered who have brought this subject up in my presence have done so from a very racist place.  They have little to no knowledge of immigration policy or the laws past/present, no knowledge of immigration to/from this country historically, and no interest in having any knowledge going forward.  The views seem to come from a place of frustration about things which they feel they have no control over, and are often largely unrelated to Mexican immigration, when you get right down to brass tacks.  Reminds me of indian casinos.  Don't get people going on that subject, either.  The most asinine diatribes will spew forth with no apparent rhyme or reason.

This is one of those topics where I feel like we're best off eductating ourselves individually, then making informed choices come elections.  

quote:Originally posted by S.

Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!  

I'm with EdW.  This is what I perceive to be the critical issue that needs to be addressed first and foremost.  Other issues are by-products of this main issue, and will take care of themselves if this issue is dealt with.

It's a very old issue, as someone else mentioned.  The difference now is people are coming from Mexico instead of Ireland, etc.  

quote:Originally posted by Ed W

Immigration has been a hot button issue in this country since the Irish potato famine in the 1840s (?) if not sooner.  Successive waves of immigrants arrived here for much the same reason - the economic opportunity that a good job brings.  The Poles, Jews, Chinese and Italians all faced the same anti-immigrant biases.  The present 'hot issue' of immigration is hardly new.

But if Marx was right about all conflict originating from economic reasons, then there's an economic solution to the problem of immigration.  Simply eliminate the low-paying jobs that 'real' Americans won't take by passing legislation that heavily penalizes employers of illegals.  Wages will rise until under-employed citizens see the jobs as a realistic alternative to lesser paying jobs.  

How much would they have to pay for any one of us to take a job in a meat cutting plant or as a field hand?  And how much would you be willing to see your grocery prices rise as a result?

[kakie]

Just found this on a blog:

Is it OK for Oklahoma to have a law that promotes hate among people?"

Just as predicted, there are plans in the works from various groups to come to the aid of thousands of illegal foreign nationals in the state of Oklahoma despite legislation put in place by the will of the people, you know - the legal citizens of Oklahoma.  I'm telling you if illegal foreign nationals end up having equal or more rights than legal citizens our country,  as we know it,  is finished.

Starting Wednesday, a billboard near 21st and 1-44 in Tulsa will say:  "Is it OK for Oklahoma to have a law that promotes hate among people?"

This fight begins by an action that tries to shift the will of the people into a crime of hate!  How dare they. How dare they!

[dbacks fan]

I know all of the discussions about illegal immigrants coming into the US, and the discussions about crime, jobs, and clogging up ER's, and everything else.

But, there is a bigger issue that I think is overlooked in all of this, and that is the health of these people coming into our country. Anyone of us traveling out of the US depending on where we go, may need to get vaccinated for certain diseases, or booster shots for other issues. The people that are coming here illegaly have not been checked for any form of communicable disease what so ever. NOTHING! While not being ill, thet can be carriers of disease and illness.

I bring this up because my wife who is a 3rd generation Arizonian is currently dealing with and being treated for a form of meningitis. From talking to the people treating her, and information that I have researched on the CDC website, most forms of this have been controlled or removed from the US to the point that some forms have been rare in the US to the point of 2 per 100,000 people for some strains.

While we can't pinpoint the point of her exposure, I can't help but wonder if any of these illegal immigrants (I mean all illegals, period) could bring in something that was nearly removed from the US. There has been a recent change in the number of cases of bacterial meningitis in adults while there has been a decline in cases of infants, children, and the elderly.

I'm just saying that there is a larger concern that I haven't really seen addressed by anyone for the president on down to your local representative about this, in any state or in any form of news media.

[shadows]

Restored2x quoted: You are funny! (You are trying to be funny, right?)
***************************

Even the jesters may show wisdom even in jest.

[Der Teufel]

"every illegal alien costs taxpayers $22,000 a year in social sevices"

what BS.  That would mean the 60,000 illegals in Tulsa cost us 1.3 billiondollars!  

This is an issue that needs to be dealt with soon, but that kind of misinformation is just plain silly.  

As for the billboards, don't pro-immigrant groups have the same rights as anti-immigrant groups?

[USRufnex]

no.  cuz the anti-immigrant groups are all VICTIMS.

/sarcasm.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

No, they do deserve their share of the blame, too. As a Union member I could leave Tulsa for much greener pastures in much friendlier places. I choose to stay and stand up for an honest days pay for an honest days work, a safe workplace and secure health/retirement benefits where I have lived the majority of my life. Sorry, if I have very little sympathy or respect for those who lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves where they live and whose actions hurt the welfare of their fellow workers in the process.  There is nothing redeemable or admirable about that IMO.

Too bad.  Because of the insatiable appetite of the unions of this country to unionize disount retailers like WalMart and their efforts to screw up the grocery industry, your unions have completely ignored the REAL workers of this country.

If the union bureacracy in this country cannot be reformed, it should be replaced.  I have my CWA cards...

The worker is my brother... the worker who is trying to provide for his/her family... not some unionized bureaucratic tea party...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by dbacks fan
But, there is a bigger issue that I think is overlooked in all of this, and that is the health of these people coming into our country. Anyone of us traveling out of the US depending on where we go, may need to get vaccinated for certain diseases, or booster shots for other issues. The people that are coming here illegaly have not been checked for any form of communicable disease what so ever. NOTHING! While not being ill, thet can be carriers of disease and illness.

I bring this up because my wife who is a 3rd generation Arizonian is currently dealing with and being treated for a form of meningitis. From talking to the people treating her, and information that I have researched on the CDC website, most forms of this have been controlled or removed from the US to the point that some forms have been rare in the US to the point of 2 per 100,000 people for some strains.

While we can't pinpoint the point of her exposure, I can't help but wonder if any of these illegal immigrants (I mean all illegals, period) could bring in something that was nearly removed from the US. There has been a recent change in the number of cases of bacterial meningitis in adults while there has been a decline in cases of infants, children, and the elderly.

I'm just saying that there is a larger concern that I haven't really seen addressed by anyone for the president on down to your local representative about this, in any state or in any form of news media.

Many/most meningitis outbreaks happen at college campuses.  Care to tell me how we need to send college students back home?  I, personally, had to get a vaccination for meningitis a few years back.......... some people actually died in the outbreak (including an acquaintance who was neither illegal nor hispanic)... and it wasn't caused by immigrants (legal or illegal)...

Instead of using this health issue to justify deportation, how 'bout we step up to the plate and REGISTER all our workers... after all, meningitis could kill them too, eh?

[Wingnut]

quote:  "every illegal alien costs taxpayers $22,000 a year in social sevices"

quote: what BS. That would mean the 60,000 illegals in Tulsa cost us 1.3 billiondollars!  

quote: This is an issue that needs to be dealt with soon, but that kind of misinformation is just plain silly.  

These aren't all local dollars, they are mostly federal dollars in the form of food stamps and welfare. Some local dollars would be hospital visits that aren't compensated for.

Wasn't the outbreak of disease drug resistant TB in the South Texas border region that was traced back to Mexican nationals?

[Der Teufel]

Wingnut,

No way EVERY SINGLE ILLEGAL ALIEN costs the US $22,000 APIECE in services. If you use 12 million as the number of illegal people here that would be 264 BILLION DOLLARS! Give me a cite or source for your $22,000 number.

USRufnex is right when he says the anti-immigrant groups are Victims.  They are victims of their own self-pity.  Take out "illegal alien" and replace it with Jew, Asian, or Black and most people would recoil in disgust at the unabashed racism this is promoting.

And before you local Sturmabteilungsmann decide to kick me with your jackboots and call me a liberal apologist...I agree something must be done about the immigration problem. Our system is broken, subject to abuses by both the people coming here illegally and the companies profiting from their labor.

However, the term "illegal" is misleading, being in the US without the proper documents is still just a CIVIL infraction. Criminalizing these folks who have become a necessary part of our economy and who are doing nothing more than trying to earn a living goes against everything America is supposed to be about.  Additionally, it adds a very real strain to our economy. When you start breaking up families and making two income households into one income households you certainly will see an increase in the need for tax payer funded social services.

The arguments that Hispanics are unwilling to assimilate is a false one. No one complains about the Oriental grocery store, Kosher market, or Middle Eastern delis. More likely, many immigrants are fearful of their status, and therefore less likely to readily intergrate.

The stereotype about the "uninsured Mexican" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Unable to get a driver's license, they are consequently unable to obtain insurance. Drive by the car wash at 21st and Garnett and look at some of those trucks.  As much money and time as some of those folks have put in their vehicles, you can bet your bottom they would have insurance if they could get it.

A reasonable solution needs to be found to allow people to provide the much needed labor necessary to our national economy and concurrently address the necessity of knowing who exactly is in our country. This won't be accomplished by throwing open our borders and it won't be accomplished by rhetoric which is thinnly veiled race hatred or pure political posturing.  

The national spotlight will be turned on Oklahoma when one of these national legal organizations steps up and files a lawsuit. Maybe hb1804 will stand, maybe not. Whatever the case, our image on the national stage will be tarnished.

And if your answer to that is "I don't care," then you just don't get it.

[Wingnut]

DT,
Read it and weep.....http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/tst052107a.cfm
All I know is what I read and then form an opinion. What I have read on the "pro-illegal immigrant" side seems to ignore the facts that laws are broken, that it costs taxpayers money, and that they demand their "rights", or they are being mistreated. I can't believe that the pro side was against the amnesty plan, saying it was too harsh on them, when it was giving them a free ride, virtually straight away.
I don't make any claims to know any more than anyone else about immigration. But when emergency rooms shutdown because they run out of money because too many illegals come up and use the free services (as has happened in the border region of AZ.) I would say there is a real problem.
One thing I read that rings true is that once someone does something illegal, like crossing the border, they will continue to do illegal things, like driving without a license, or insurance, getting bogus paperwork to get a job, turning to crime to make ends meet, etc. One crime begets another.