Let's try a new way of discussing immigration..

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by Der Teufel
However, the term "illegal" is misleading, being in the US without the proper documents is still just a CIVIL infraction.

Ooooh, shoot and a miss.  Illegal immigration has been a misdemeanor in the US since 1929.  The penalty for a first offense is up to six months in jail or prison and/or a fine of $50 to $250.  The fact that it's not enforced does not make it "legal."

Why should I take anything else you've said seriously since you didn't even bother to research this detail?

[Wingnut]

quote: This won't be accomplished by throwing open our borders and it won't be accomplished by rhetoric which is thinnly veiled race hatred or pure political posturing.  

I would sure call this latest shamnesty bill nothing but political posturing. They were doing nothing but trying to appease the illegals, get them a green card and sign them up to vote.
Why does a group of people wanting another group of people to follow the law become a racist group of people? What is racist about wanting order in a society?
On aspect of the whole issues that is usually overlooked is the fact that we import most all of mexico's oil. Should we start enforcing the law on the illegals that the gov't appears to be sending up here, they could shut off the tap.

I really don't buy the "system is broken" story line at all. There is a good working system in place and there always has been. The problem is that the gov't wasn't doing what they were supposed to be doing in enforcing the law. Those that have failed to do their job should be brought to justice.
I agree with Ip, do some research.

[Der Teufel]

IPLAW,

So, I made a mistake oooooooh geeez burn me at the stake.  Frankly, YOUR opinion matters least. Of all the posters I have read on this board, you are one of the most pompous and self-serving in your posts, rebuttals, etc.  You're not the only guy (or gal) in town with a law degree, and I'll bet it drives you crazy some of the "ambulance chasers" I seen you complain about rake in the money.  You probably look like your avatar in person. Anyway, sod off. (And pardon my overt hostility, but in the months I have been reading this board, you do come across as a horse's behind.)

Wingnut, on the other hand seems to be genuine. So, wing, here's my answer, I'm all for enforcement of the current immigration laws.  I don't agree with you that one crime begets another, but I do agree that the US must be able to secure its borders and we cannot just open up the doors wide and invite everyone in.

Here's why the system is broken...the immigration mess is like "an attractive nuisance." (Oh, bugger me IPLAW isn't that Torts I?) If you owned a swimming pool, complete with slide, diving board and pool toys, and that pool sat in your unfenced back yard, you would be responsible if some child wandered back there, fell in and gurgled his last breath.  This may seem like a paternalistic argument, but we (the States) have lured workers here with good jobs and lax enforcement.  Now, we have to deal with the mess we have created.

One thing that is often overlooked is the fate of US Citizen children of illegals.  Are they somehow less American than those of you born here?  If so, doesn't that philosophy begin to chip away at what it is to be an American.

As to the racism question, here's the problem Wingnut, in the grand old days of unabashed racial profiling, the standard was easy, if a driver was Black, pull 'em over. Now, it's not quite so simple.  Pulling over and questioning a Hispanic, the driver may be illegal or he may be a 5th generation American. Hell, he may be a Native American or just someone with a darker complexion than those of us blessed with blonde hair, blue eyes, and bonnie cheeks.

There has to be some sort of solution that addresses the real issues and is fair to all. However, until the 2008 elections are over, I doubt we'll see it.

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by Admin

Since a related post went downhill fast, how about we try this another way.

The rules:
Each person can post what they believe to be the #1 problem related to immigration and immigration reform and follow it with their best idea of how to fix it. No negative replies allowed. Post your ideas and read the other suggestions. No name calling, arguing or bashing of other's suggestions. Just consider this the immigration version of 100ideasOK.

The number one problem with is illegal immigration is the employers who hire illegals.The solution is to severely crack down on those hire illegals,we crack down on them by heavy fining,confiscating the property and assets,lengthy prison sentence,felony status and deny the offender any ability to own and or operate a business(no business licenses and anything required to own and or operate business.The fines,prison sentence,felony status,loss of property and assets and loss of future ability to own and or operate a business will encourage businesses to obey the law.The fines and property and assets confiscation of those found guilty of hiring illegals will entice local and state governments to make sure law enforcement is cracking down on those who hire illegals.No jobs for illegals means people will not be coming over here illegally to get jobs.

[Wingnut]

DT,
I'll take being called genuine as a compliment. Thank you. I try to read up on this stuff, usually on a daily basis, so I can carry on a basis conversation we people on the current topics of the day.

As for employers, Ann Coulter, love her or hate her, (not the point here), said that the gov't should let illegals sue their employers for paying them less than minimum wage. That would clear things up fast!

As fore the racism part. Who knows? If a robbery occurs and the discription is of a 5'8", xxxx color, male, driving a green 4 door, and the cops are looking for that and see someone matching that description, he just profiled. Does he have the right to pull him over whether he's the felon or not? Profiling is a sticky wicket. It's about the only real way to find what your looking for, but you also get what your not looking for, and thats what upsets people.
Look at Israel, they profile everyone in line at the airport. The guards and specially trained to look for sweaty foreheads and underarms and if they see someome that looks suspect, they check them out. Hence, no hijackings in years. Do they pull out innocent people, certainly, are they upset about it, probably not.
Laws forbidding cops to ask obviously illegal people their status because they might profile is crazy.

[kakie]

"The attitude that many illegals seem to have that it's their right to be here and demand citizenship lacks a certain humbleness and shows utter disrespect for Americans. This does follow, though, the philosophy of a movement that was started in the late 60s in Denver, Colorado.  It's called the Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán.  In their philosophy it states:   "Chicanismo involves a personal decision to reject assimilation and work towards the preservation of our cultural heritage.  They seek an end to oppression and exploitation of the Chicano/Chicana community and create a Chicano nationalism which is the key to taking their people forward. You can read more about this on their national website.  Their first National Liaison meeting will be held in Denver on Saturday, July 28th.  This seems to explain the mindset of the outright indignant demands we see from many illegals, doesn't  it?  It also explains why the U.S. flag was removed in two instances in California and replace by the Mexican flag last year.  One historic document on their website (with no links to it) is El Plan de Aztlan which starts off by saying:

"In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, We, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlán from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny..."
(ztruth blog, 7/22/07)  

Google "mecha" and find their national website and you can read for yourself.  

Are you paying attention?
 

[iplaw]

If I may borrow from CF:

quote:
So, I made a mistake oooooooh geeez burn me at the stake.  Frankly, YOUR opinion matters least. Of all the posters I have read on this board, you are one of the most pompous and self-serving in your posts, rebuttals, etc.  You're not the only guy (or gal) in town with a law degree, and I'll bet it drives you crazy some of the "ambulance chasers" I seen you complain about rake in the money.  You probably look like your avatar in person. Anyway, sod off. (And pardon my overt hostility, but in the months I have been reading this board, you do come across as a horse's behind.)

I'll take either Pot or Kettle on the phone for $500 Alex...

quote:
Here's why the system is broken...the immigration mess is like "an attractive nuisance." (Oh, bugger me IPLAW isn't that Torts I?) If you owned a swimming pool, complete with slide, diving board and pool toys, and that pool sat in your unfenced back yard, you would be responsible if some child wandered back there, fell in and gurgled his last breath.  This may seem like a paternalistic argument, but we (the States) have lured workers here with good jobs and lax enforcement.  Now, we have to deal with the mess we have created.

Poor analogy, you should pick up a torts book sometime, might do you some good.

quote:
One thing that is often overlooked is the fate of US Citizen children of illegals.  Are they somehow less American than those of you born here?  If so, doesn't that philosophy begin to chip away at what it is to be an American.

Not really, but you're free to make your points about it and we can go from there.

[restored2x]

Fuel for the fire:
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1649483,00.html?cnn=yes

Parents brought them in when they were toddlers - now they may be deported because the parents got caught.

Not anchor babies - they were born in Colombia - but raised here.

I think this atricle tells us what is most wrong with the immigration thing: Politics.

[Der Teufel]

IP:

I'll be the kettle, you be the pot. One puts one the kettle, and one....well you get the idea.

(Incidently, I like your avatar, I just couldn't resist the dig... I'll ask your indulgence.)

"Poor analogy, you should pick up a torts book sometime, might do you some good."

Done me better than you might imagine. I should like to know how exactly it is a poor analogy.

Why would the US Citizen child of illegals be less American than the rest of you? If you take a strict constructionalist view of the Constitution, are not all born here equally Americans?

So far you've only disagreed with me, but not offered any of your own arguments. Pray, dazzle us with your brillance Herr Doktor Rechtsanwalt.

[Der Teufel]

brilliance Herr Doktor brilliance  Diese Sprache ist häufig schwierig.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

DT,
Read it and weep.....http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/tst052107a.cfm
All I know is what I read and then form an opinion. ..

What do you read besides Heritage Foundation research...isn't that an oxymoron?[]

[LeftOCenter]

POEM - Illegal Immigrants
I cross River, poor and broke,
Take bus, see unemployment folk.
Nice man treat me good in there,
Say I need go see Welfare.
Welfare say, "You come no more,
We send cash right to your door."
Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid it keep you healthy!
By and by, Got plenty money,
Thanks to you, TAXPAYER dummy
Write to friends in motherland,
Tell them 'come, fast as you can'
They come in SUVs and Ford trucks,
I buy big house with welfare bucks.
They come here, we live together,
More welfare checks, it gets better!
Fourteen families, they moving in,
But neighbor's patience wearing thin.
Finally, white guy moves away,
I buy his house, and then I say,
"Find more aliens for House to Rent."
In my yard I put a tent.
Send for family, they just trash,
But can pay me rent with welfare cash!
Everything is very good,
Soon we own the whole neighborhood.
We have hobby it called breeding,
Welfare pay for baby feeding.
Kids need dentist? Wife need pills?
We get free! Medicaid pay bill!
TAXPAYER crazy! He pay all year,
To keep welfare check coming here.
We think America darn good place!
Too darn good for white man race.
If they no like us, they can GO,
Got lots of room in Mexico.

[LeftOCenter]

It's all a little ironic. Years ago white folks came here by the thousands. They thought indians were ignorant. They came in and changed our language, took over our land and change our government. Pushed indians onto reservations were the land was infertal and with more population than resorces to feed them. It all worked out for the best. Right? Unless you are indian. Better start brushing up on your spanish. This wouldn't be the first time this has happened in the USA.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by Double A

No, they do deserve their share of the blame, too. As a Union member I could leave Tulsa for much greener pastures in much friendlier places. I choose to stay and stand up for an honest days pay for an honest days work, a safe workplace and secure health/retirement benefits where I have lived the majority of my life. Sorry, if I have very little sympathy or respect for those who lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves where they live and whose actions hurt the welfare of their fellow workers in the process.  There is nothing redeemable or admirable about that IMO.

Too bad.  Because of the insatiable appetite of the unions of this country to unionize disount retailers like WalMart and their efforts to screw up the grocery industry, your unions have completely ignored the REAL workers of this country.

If the union bureacracy in this country cannot be reformed, it should be replaced.  I have my CWA cards...

The worker is my brother... the worker who is trying to provide for his/her family... not some unionized bureaucratic tea party...

                                                                                                                                    A brotherhood of rats who steal from the families of their siblings by working for slave wages? BTW, service workers shouldn't be relegated to second class, slave wage serfs, they deserve the right to join a union and collectively bargain, too. I agree with you that the leadership of Unions have been co-opted and have lost touch with their rank and file memberships. A Union job for a Union contractor means equal pay for equal work regardless of race, gender, religion, national origin, political affiliation, or sexual orientation.                           Think about what we would be like without unions:                                                    IF IT WASN'T FOR THE UNION

Loren Adams, 6th District Vice-President, Arkansas Postal Workers Union




Where would you be today if it wasn't for the Union? How much would you be making? Would you constantly be a target for firing just because... and with no such thing as "just cause"? What kind of a benefit package would you boast? How many rights could you claim?

Millions of workers in America find themselves living in fear: Fear of losing their jobs because the company bosses are threatening to outsource the whole operation to some other country if they don't get what they want — less pay for workers, more wealth for the few at the top.

On the other hand, there's the threat to hire immigrants (legal or the other kind) just because the current government looks the other way at such practices. In truth, if they decide not to export the company lock-stock & barrel, by golly they're going to import cheap foreign labor — just to show who's boss and to boast how "patriotic" they are.

Ruth Voshell drove me around Jonesboro a couple years ago and showed me empty factories that had moved to China, Mexico and elsewhere. I hope the buildings have re-opened to industry, that back then they were vacant. It was like seeing a ghost town, except they were fairly new buildings — empty of course.

I thought then, "How could they let this happen to America?"

Well, the pace has actually picked up. Our industrial base is deteriorating right under our feet. NAFTA, WTO and other such trade agreements have eroded the labor-base, and thus America's economic engine: the mighty middle class. They say the only things keeping us afloat are credit cards and indebtedness to China.

Yes, politicians give the problem proper lip-service, but what have they done? This is what's eating away at America's heart today -- not all the phony-balogny we hear so much about!

In contrast, Unions in this country have made a big impact — the kind that boosts the overall economy, the kind that helps the middle class be the powerhouse of the USA. The 8-hour day, 40-hour week, week-ends off, child labor laws, over-time, safety, retirement, health and life insurances, and a host of other benefits oft' forgot.

Do you question this fact? Well, before unions came along in the good ol' U.S. of A., there was no middle class — only the few "have's" and the "have-not's" (the rest of the population). Union pioneers opened the opportunities we enjoy today — paying for them with their blood, sweat and tears. Many of them were imprisoned; hundreds of the union rank & file died while trying to picket and demonstrate against injustice. It was never a pretty picture.

One incident stands out in my mind, the massacre at Ludlow, Colorado in 1914 where several dozen miners, their wives and children were mowed down by state troopers and hired company militia. Mother Jones was imprisoned there for many months trying to help the miners.

Ludlow was repeated by several incidents across the country, although at a smaller scale.

Our struggle for rights, better working conditions and a fair day's pay for a fair day's labor never came easy. Never will.

It's a fact: If it wasn't for unions, there would be no middle class. And as labor goes, so goes America.

And that's the predicament we're heading for now if we don't stand up and stand with the union!

Though some excuse themselves from sharing the load, they are quick at demanding the advantages — as if they were entitled to them. There are a million and one alibis NOT to belong — most every one of them groundless — but one main reason to join: RESPONSIBILITY. No one twists your arm to sign up; it's your own free will. Remember, though, that fellow workers are carrying your load — making sure that you have a good-paying job and better working conditions.

It's not cheap to keep it going either. Like hiring a lawyer... if you want a cheap ambulance chaser to represent you, then that's what you'll end up with. Best of luck with your jailtime.

On the other hand, let's be grateful to belong to one of the greatest organizations in the world: THE UNION. Just like democracy is imperfect, so is the union. But like democracy, unionism is the BEST there is to offer.

[Wingnut]

quote: What do you read besides Heritage Foundation research...isn't that an oxymoron?

Who else has done any substantial research into the issue? Rector researches and studies the issues for a living. I don't, and I'll guess no one else on this board does either. If anyone would know about the true effects of illegal aliens on the country it would be him.
If you don't agree with Rectors evaluation of the situation, your issue is with him, not me.
By all means, show some other research that has some real numbers and not rhetoric and I'll read it.

Where do you get your information on the subject?