Tulsa’s fiscal priorities are out of whack

[cannon_fodder]

Misnomer #1)  Tulsa's retail sales are not shrinking, they are at an all time high.

#2) Tulsa's population is no longer shrinking.  We remain some 1.2% off of our all time high, which we hit in 2000.  Given the collapse of our major industries that is not surprising and I hope we can recover that by the next census.


Tulsa is not want I want it to be, but it is not the withered old man some here speak of.  The fact that IP had to wuss out and move to the suburbs is proof enough that there is DEMAND to live in Tulsa.  That's why Midtown prices are high.  (wuss!)

http://www.city-data.com/city/Tulsa-Oklahoma.html
Interesting data.

[iplaw]

quote:
Tulsa's survival depends on core development, and attracting new people.  People that like urban living, or simply establishing new locations for visitors.  Anything that will broaden the tax base.

I agree, but part of that has to include reasonable housing, and projects like the lofts and many others like it don't qualify (at least to me).  Newer and more modern living spaces in a renewed downtown area would be great, but I can't stress enough that it has to be reasonable.  We have too many high quality neighborhoods within a short distance.  If there's one thing that guarantees a white, upper class, socialite, un-diverse area it's high priced urban housing.  How many people around here would be happy to see that?  5 years ago I would have loved to live in a vibrant downtown loft, but today, with a family that's just not an option.

After being in Spain for a couple of weeks, it makes me really wish we had cities like Pamplona where you have anything within walking distance from your home.  People aren't fat, and they're generally happier and frendlier because they are forced to build great communities.

You may be right that Tulsa's only option is to be the hub that provides everything else the surrounding communities can't, and that's entertainment, but I suggest we step on it if we wish not to play second fiddle to Jenks.

The one question I can't answer is why this can't be done with private money if it is to be so lucractive?

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Misnomer #1)  Tulsa's retail sales are not shrinking, they are at an all time high.

#2) Tulsa's population is no longer shrinking.  We remain some 1.2% off of our all time high, which we hit in 2000.  Given the collapse of our major industries that is not surprising and I hope we can recover that by the next census.


Tulsa is not want I want it to be, but it is not the withered old man some here speak of.  The fact that IP had to wuss out and move to the suburbs is proof enough that there is DEMAND to live in Tulsa.  That's why Midtown prices are high.  (wuss!)

http://www.city-data.com/city/Tulsa-Oklahoma.html
Interesting data.

That's true...not the wuss part... but all that other stuff you said []

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Ever heard of getting the cart before the horse?

I have been flabbergasted to see that the City of Tulsa does not have enough money budgeted to mow her property.  And then I read in the local newspaper that our streets have deteriorated so badly that we can never realistically expect that they will be well maintained.

A City is like a person.  Think about how you run your household affairs and then think about how Tulsa runs her household affairs.

Tulsa recently decided to borrow $76M for a new city hall that she does not have to have.

Tulsa is about to ask her citizens to approve $200M in new taxes for developing recreational areas on the river.

That would be like me borrowing $19,000 for a storage room addition and $40,000 for a new in ground swimming pool when I couldn't pay my monthly electric bill and when I was also unable to pay the hazard insurance on my home.

I'm a pro-growth social liberal but I'm also a fiscal conservative and it looks to me like Tulsa needs to tighten her belt and put her many self improvement schemes on hold until she has something left over after fully funding basic services.

The city of Tulsa lives on two cents of sales tax for operating revenue. Last month the city got $14.56 per cent, per resident to that end (which is actually more than Oklahoma City per resident). Tulsa also has raised a 3rd cent sales tax for infrastructure and has a modest amount of Bond issue money coming in for streets and other capital needs, these two money streams cannot by law be used for city operations. The city can levy a income tax, but that would require a vote of the people and would never pass.

The reason the streets are in the condition they are is that over the last decade the federal government ended it's payment to local government for street maintenance and the city has been unable to find another revenue stream to make up that difference.

Why is this all germane to the river question? Well, Tulsa has not been growing residentially recently so revenue has been at best about flat when indexed for inflation. The river question will do two things to help Tulsa from a budget perspective both operationally and with capital needs.

The quality of life aspect for the city will encourage infill development and encourage more people to live in the city thus driving up sales taxes and property values which in turn increases property taxes. If that's all too fuzzy and hard to prove, then there this: The proposed "Tulsa Landing" which is part of this plan will have a strong and direct impact on the city budget. A development like this could easily see a million dollars a day in revenue, or about a third of a billion dollars in sales a year with much of it from outside the city and even the metro. That's about $7 million dollar more a year for the operations budget of the city and another $3.5 million to the 3rd penny. On top of that the development will have an appraised value in the range of half a billion dollars, that's a lot more money to the city's bond issue fund and lot more money for schools.

These numbers are real and there is a real impact. To be against the plan is penny wise and pound foolish.

There's nothing inherently wrong about your synopsis, except the last paragraph. The River Plan is fine, the funding mechanism is the problem. There's much better ways to accomplish the river plan which do not require the County or its' new authority.

Start by letting the County finish its' obligations in V2025 with the dam construction. Then, they're out of it. Let each City decide what they want to do from that point, so long as it conforms to the Plan via INCOG, TMAPC or whomever as a zoning type restriction. That is, if each City also decides to 'adopt' that plan. They would seem to have an option there as well.

That's "putting water in the river". All the rest is fluff.

[MichaelC]

Technically, the sales tax base is growing, which under current conditions, it should.  If it won't keep pace with infrastructure growth or other city obligations, it doesn't matter.  We'll sit here frozen in time, slowly decaying.

quote:The one question I can't answer is why this can't be done with private money if it is to be so lucractive?

If you're talking about the river, if I'm not mistaken, there is a $111 million private contribution that will be coupled with the public tax if it goes through.  

I can't think of one place in Tulsa, where the river is marginally prepared for private development.  It may exist, I can't think of one.  And cities do compete for these types of things, if you can't provide basic access to the river and infrastructure, no one will bother.

[restored2x]

I don't think Tulsa is dying. I think it can be a growing and vibrant area - I just think that the mentality of developing the river is the answer, or moving city hall and getting into more debt is the answer - is wrong.

I love this city more than any other place I've lived. It's not he most beautiful (that would be Humacao, PR). It's not the most prosperous (Richmond, VA). It's not the biggest (Baltimore, MD) - but it is a great place to raise a family and just enjoy life. The people are nice and there's enough diversity to make it interesting.

I believe the city can co-exist and prosper with all our neighbors (burbs). The debt and pipe dreams on the river are way too big for where we stand now. Maybe dice and slice the plan into smaller bite-sized pieces and evaluate the effectiveness as we go.

The city hall thing was and is a bad idea - just as Hometown said above - bad business decision. A waste of money. A giant risk. Political bling. I can't see how it improves Tulsa one bit.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by restored2x

The city hall thing was and is a bad idea - just as Hometown said above - bad business decision. A waste of money. A giant risk. Political bling. I can't see how it improves Tulsa one bit.

If a company bought a building, on the presumption that current rental agreements would pay off the loan completely, and get them an essentially free building, how is that a bad business decision?

Also, how long have you lived here?  Have you kept up to speed on say last say 4 years?  Just wondering, how much of the current "goings on" you've followed.

[MichaelC]

If I sat hear and said "the situation is dire", I might be lying to myself.  Tulsa isn't done yet, there are a few things in the pipeline that could really help.  And V2025, the Arena, a lot of private investment in downtown, is likely to be a big help.

I wonder if it's enough.  It may be, I'm not convinced.  This "old man" syndrome in cities, it happens.  Detroit and Pittsburgh are not the only examples, it happens everywhere.  Dallas, mostly a hellhole now.  It takes a lot of work out of a city, to keep itself young and functional.  

And the River is underdeveloped, except in Jenks.  We're running the risk that Jenks, Bixby, BA, and even Sand Springs will be far ahead of us, before we ever decide to develop the river.  And there is a lot of potential there, a lot of potential to add to the population and tax base of Tulsa, and to the county Tax base.  If you want density, downtown, and the river is where it needs to happen.

[TheArtist]

I really think people get it wrong when they talk of our river and downtown as competing with the suburbs. We are not going to draw those people from there to downtown to live. However there are a lot of people like me who want to live in a city environment and would rather rot in heck than live in the burbs. Tulsa can compete with the burbs in other areas, but when it comes to downtown and some mid-town/river areas Tulsa needs to be thinking about competing with other cities, for the urban, walkable district loving type people. Plus by having great "destinations" and attractions Tulsa can draw people in from the suburbs and reap the rewards of the money they spend here. World class museums, a destination riverwalk, great downtown activities, great park facilities, etc.

The only possible, sizeable, market of people that we may attract to live in central Tulsa from the suburbs are the younger people who were raised there and often want to move and experience "active city living". They most likely don't want to live in a quiet lazy suburban environment. Tulsa should be making itself one of the places they may choose.

I was quite heartened just the other day when I was reading several different articles about TCC's new scholarship program and the reaction it was getting. Several young people said something to this effect.  "I had never seriously thought of going to TCC or staying in Tulsa to get my education. But now its hard to say no with this TCC program, and having the colleges like OSU nearby definitely makes it an option I will consider."  Now thats exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to see in this town, and glad to see that those of us pushing for better university systems in Tulsa, are being proved right in our belief in what it will do for our city.

[MichaelC]

It's only a competition if Tulsa fails miserably to develop it's part of the river.  We'll always lose people and business to the burbs, sitting on our hands and watching it happen without trying to attract new people, that's what we've done so far with the river.

And since we'll always lose people and business to the burbs, the burbs will benefit from a bigger better Tulsa.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

It's only a competition if Tulsa fails miserably to develop it's part of the river.  We'll always lose people and business to the burbs, sitting on our hands and watching it happen without trying to attract new people, that's what we've done so far with the river.

And since we'll always lose people and business to the burbs, the burbs will benefit from a bigger better Tulsa.

That's all well and fine, but not this way.

We need a better plan for financing. The River Plan, by itself, is fine for the most part.

When are people going to realize that people will want to come here when they see US having a good time?

We're being told to suck it up and suffer to hang trinkettes to attract flies.

[AMP]

quote:Originally posted by jackbristow

quote:Originally posted by AMP

We used to have some Low Water Dams, Nice Racetrack, Amusement Park . . .  

Seems we used to have low water dams, there was one in Sand Springs by the park, but they were torn down for some stated safety reason.

Seems we had a state of the art Clay Oval 5/8 mile Racetrack at Expo Square (now QuikTrip Center) at one time that drew over 8,000 fans on Saturday nights.

Seems the racetrack was moved to another location and did worse there than it did at the original location at Expo.  

Seems we have a very nice Ballpark at QT Center currently that the owners want to move to another location.

Seems we had an operating Amusement Park at Expo for 50+ years, that now is a pile of rubble and some rides in storage.  

As pointed out above in another post the tax base appears to of decreased and that seems to coincide with lower ticket sales and purchases at most attractions and retail businesses in Tulsa.  

Based on the lower number of participants this past weekend at the Road Races held at Hallett, versus what we have been seeing this season at the tracks in Louisiana and Texas I would have to say it appears to be an economic problem in Oklahoma.

Could be wrong, but I do know there are two racetracks that have closed for this season, Tulsa Speedway and Salina Highbanks which were going concerns not two seasons ago.  No new competitors have moved in, and the other tracks that have struggled to stay open, have not experienced a large influx of business by their closings.  

Could be high cost of energy, low wages, lack of gainfully employed workers, weather, under-employment and the higher cost of housing.  Most of those have an effect on the sales tax base.

You point out ventures that are doing poorly and moves that you feel were bad decisions.  But what about things that are doing well?  The Riverwalk in Jenks seems to do well.  Our movie theaters seem to get good traffic on the weekends.  The lakes seem to have an abundance of activity and boats in the summer.  Social districts such as Cherry St and Brookside seem strong.  Business on 71st St, as much as most complain of the area, is always booming.

Perhaps those things that have been abandoned or failed simply did so due to a lack of interest from the regional population.  What a concept!!!  The market speaks!  Demanded activities and services will find their way to success.  All it takes is for enterprising individuals (such as Mr. Gordon of the Jenks Riverwalk) to see demand for something and offer it.

Most movie theaters I knew of it Tulsa are defunct, some are boarded up while others have become Drug Stores or other businesses that cater to an older generation.  Movie theaters that are left operating may have some folks attending them, as there are less theaters than in the past, just like there are less racetracks than in the near past as well. Last movie I attended which was two Friday nights ago had less than 50 people in the audiance at the movies at 41st and Yale.  Place looked as if someone had called in a bomb scare compared to 6 years ago crowds.      

My point being that just because you have the tax payers fund a project that may or may not attract people for a short or long term does not mean it will work or last.  I travel over 65,000 miles each year to several other states and have had first hand view of many cities' riverfronts.  Stopped and walked the area, engaged in conversation with business owners and folks around the area.  Majority I come across near larger cities are street people sitting on the bench or concrete partitions getting drunk.  But that is common in most downtown areas I have visited.

Many times folks think the problem with lack of attendance is the venue or the area it is located in.  Bottom line is the income and attitude of the people living in that market.  If people have entertainment dollars in their budget, they will seek out places to spend it.  There are older venues all over the world that continue to attract sell out crowds today.  So it is not how fancy the venue is, or where it is located, it is the market in most cases.  

With motorsports the main problem is the cost of energy for both the support staff, teams and fans to travel to and from the venue.  Because most are located in remote locations today due to noise requirement, the support of those events has fallen off tremendously at many levels of competition.  

Not sure about a couple of the places you mention as I have never been to the Jenks River Walk or ever read much about it or seen any photos of it.  I did hear that Gary who worked at Brownies Hamburgers had a burger joint there, but it did not last long. I actually have no clue where the River Walk is. If I decided to drive there, I would need directions.  

I do travel to Hallett twelve times during the summer, and drive across Keystone Lake quite often, I do not recall seeing much boating activity on the water.  Most boats I have seen in the past 24 times past there on the weekends were six at one time.  Last season I would travel across Lake Hudson, their boating traffic had fallen off dramatically as well, most the businesses in the area complained about lack of numbers, the Salina Highbanks Speedway is located near Lake Hudson and fell victim to lack of traffic in that area as well.  

The outrageous high cost of energy has put many of the large high maintenance and high ticket price businesses out.  Much more cost effective to sell or rent a video, or download videos online for around $10 to $29 for Internet rental, and watch it on a laptop or DVD player than it is to go to watch an event live today.   Cost me $103 just to travel to and from Hallett this past weekend to perform my services there.  Race teams that traveled from Texas and Louisiana fuel expenses were well over $300 for their transports.  Not to mention a additional $53 each for Turnpike and big rig fuel and weight certificates required in Oklahoma and Kansas.

I continue to see more companies going out of business in Tulsa than going into business.  If you like I will spend a few days this week taking photos of numerous empty buildings that recently housed businesses that have been in Tulsa for over 40 years.  

Anyone have a list of new businesses that have opened in the city of Tulsa in the past year?

While Tulsa may have a few service type business such as restaurants and some small retail stores will operating in the areas you describe, I continue to see a deterioration of business that provided high paying positions.

How many of the fancy brass and glass businesses currently operating in Tulsa are also owned by Tulsan's?  Or are they corporate owned and are being used as tax write offs for major firms?  Either way the companies that are owned out of Tulsa and Oklahoma only serve to suck the revenue out of the City/State, and perhaps may employ a few low wage folks locally.  A few that come to mind are AEP that supplies our electricity owned in Ohio or at least that is where the bill is generated from.  Out wonder six telephone books for the Tulsa Metropolitan area, of which none are owned, managed or printed in the state of Oklahooma.  

All the massive amount of revenue flows out of Tulsa at a much higher rate of travel than the water of the Arkansas River.  

If one were wanting to build some new Dams and re-direct a flow, the massive flow of cash in the form of Revenue of the six Yellow Page Books would be a great starting place.  


By the way, Tulsa Speedway had been in business since the late 1930s.  Bell's Amusement Park had been in business since the late 1940s.  Both make it through some very rough times, but could not survive this recent economic downturn in Tulsa.  
 
Entertainment dollars are the first to be cut from ones budget when other fees, taxes and cost of living exceeds the income of the average family.  If those long time firms could not survive under the current tax, fee and cost of living index, just imagine what will happen if any of those items are raised above what they are today.

Guess Tulsa could entice new businesses to move into the abandoned and vacant buildings, hire younger educated folks that you could also lure into the area, move out the older folks on fixed income as they would no longer be able to afford the cost of housing if the replacements took over and were able to pay higher fees, rent and mortgage payments due to the increased income brought on by the wonderful River Font Project.  This River Front Project sounds like the salvation of many problems in Tulsa.

I would suggest traveling to Memphis, Baton Rouge, St Louis and other cities with riverfronts and walk those before deciding that the Riverfront project is such the "save all" that it seems to be for some. Keep in mind those cities are on the Mississippi river, and not a small drainage ditch such as the Arkansa is in this area.  Now the Arkansas is much nicer in Little Rock, Arkansas where they have a recreation area on the river there.  

In Memphis they also have an NBA coliseum that is the number one attraction, folks walking Beal Street and the River area are mostly killing time waiting for the games.  

Not so sure about trying to transform the drainage ditch, with Oil Refineries and sewage treatment plants that dump into the water in this area into some recreation meca.  Perhaps the new younger higher educated imports may be swayed to believe in the project, and if so one should have them and the companies they will be working for pay for the entire deal.

[waterboy]

Having a tough time this week AMP? No need for the glass half empty attitude. One would not be surprised that high energy prices would negatively affect your business. In fact it is changing our entire lifestyle as all industry adapts to the new reality. But we will adapt.

I am of your generation. It is particularly depressing for us to endure the (perceived negative) changes that technology and high energy costs are causing. I think its part of the life cycle though. We sound and feel like our parents. I don't care to stay in that paradigm. Tasted it, don't care for it.

But you won't find many admirers for your attitude on this forum. We are all trying to understand what's happening and adjust or improve. For instance, I happen to believe that the high cost of energy is going to be the catalyst for tremendous positive change. The Tesla electric sports car will cause Porsche, Ferrari, and other high performance enthusiasts to take notice. It outperforms them on a cost/performance ratio. Imagine being able to move your race tracks closer to population centers because their clean, electric motors make little noise. Eventually even GM has to pull their head out.

The natural race to the burbs of populations chasing low taxes, low construction costs and perceived safety will do the same thing. And its hardly a new process. It leave tremendous opportunities for cheaper investment once the larger city adjusts to the new reality of flatter tax revenues. And those who move into burbs like Owasso will soon tire of the atmosphere. Especially their children who will rebel from that lifestyle and move back into the city.

The river plan is an effort to help. Think of it as a recently divorced middle age man who realizes he needs to make some changes to be effective in his new reality. He's suddenly less affluent, overweight, out of style and boring. What does he do? Buys a sports car on credit, buys some inappropriate clothes, joins a health club and makes a pass at the secretary. Somehow in spite of his laughable choices, some woman finds him intriguing and pulls his donkey back into a better reality. It would have happened anyway but you'll never convince him of that.

In my thinking, its all about repeating cycles, realizing where you are in the cycle, and making adjustment. We will adjust or become irrelevant as a city.

Edit: Btw I believe our position in this current cycle is quite similar to the late 1890's often referred to as the gilded age. In fact, many ultra-conservatives consider that the golden age of America where corporations were the government and politicians were there stooges. It ended with the progressive movement of the late 20's early 30's. Startling parallels.

[AMP]

Actually I am having a very busy and good month. Gross numbers are down, but the net profit margin is higher than last year due to adjustments we made for 2007.

Sleep depravation must of caused the brain pain. Worked 16 hours Friday, then started again at 4am Saturday and worked both the Road Races then drove 50 miles to PCR to announce the Sprint Cars Saturday night which lasted until 1:30am due to a rain delay.  Back up at 4am Sunday after two hours of sleep, and left Hallett around 7:30 Sunday evening to drive back to Tulsa.  Actually looked like the same numbers as last year at Hallett for the Road Races last weekend.  

Hallett Track owner the late Mike Stephens, who passed away in August has done an outstanding job of making improvements and maintaining that facility built in 1974 by Toly Arutunoff, dirt work by Frank McElroy.  Mike's family continues their great management at the facility, and they are in the process of completing a new racing school building.  Shane and Scott Stephen's will be moving their Stephens Brothers Racing Schoool business which is currently located in West Tulsa on Nogales street out to the new building at the racetrack.  

They are trying the Electric Indoor Racing thing in OKC. Tried it in Tulsa at two locations, but they both failed.  Gator's and Mickey's tried the Electric Indoor Karting.  

The one in OKC appears to have much more invested in the facility and equipment.

http://www.racep2r.com/

[TheArtist]

AMP quote... "Last movie I attended which was two Friday nights ago had less than 50 people in the audiance at the movies at 41st and Yale. Place looked as if someone had called in a bomb scare compared to 6 years ago crowds."

I live near the AMC 20 and yes some nights its slow, but other nights movies are sold out. I don't know of any movie theater in Tulsa that has ever not been that way.  

AMP quote..."Not sure about a couple of the places you mention as I have never been to the Jenks River Walk or ever read much about it or seen any photos of it. I did hear that Gary who worked at Brownies Hamburgers had a burger joint there, but it did not last long. I actually have no clue where the River Walk is. If I decided to drive there, I would need directions."   " continue to see more companies going out of business in Tulsa than going into business. If you like I will spend a few days this week taking photos of numerous empty buildings that recently housed businesses that have been in Tulsa for over 40 years.

Anyone have a list of new businesses that have opened in the city of Tulsa in the past year?"


Wow you don't get out much do you? This points out to me my argument about how people around here are very very "territorial". Those lines on a map that delineate the boundaries between BA, Jenks, Sand Springs seem to be more real here than many other places. The distances arent that great at all. If we made the entire county of Tulsa the City of Tulsa it would completely shift our view of the conversation. All of Tulsa county is smaller than OKC and the developed part is smaller still. In this view, Tulsa as a whole wouldnt be seen as losing population, or businesses. We would simply be seeing a shift in where in the city the people and businesses are moving.

Go to south Tulsa and the area around Jenks and look at all the new businesses there. Drive down South Yale and look at all the new office parks and buildings. They no longer work in downtown offic towers. Our downtown was doomed when it became a, business only area, it needs to evolve back into a mixed use environment. I work for a lot of those people who have businesses in South Tulsa. There are lots of small oil companies, doctors, many professionals that work from home, work via computer or with tech related companies in those office parks. The people in Tulsa have shifted where they live, and the nature and places of the businesses in Tulsa have shifted as well. There werent too many tech or computer related businesses in Tulsa 40 years ago.

I think downtown and the river are similar in that revitalizing them will bring a new type of people into our core. Its not going to be some big oil company that will fill up a whole building downtown. Its going to be those YP types that want an urban environment to live in and even older people who enjoy a pleasant walkable environment with lots of things nearby to do. Plus having great concentration of attractions that will attract day trippers to the central city.   D-fest, PAC, Cains, Brady, Philbrook, An urban Riverwalk, high end shopping at Utica, an arts district, etc.

Central Tulsa is just at the start of a major trasition. Gonna take a lot of work, but it can be great and prosper. Tulsas population is stabilizing and growing, and the continued growth of the suburban population is a great opportunity to help Tulsas core become all the more attractive and alive, but with a different mix and reasons, than it once was.