Putin Youth Camp

[cannon_fodder]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=471324&in_page_id=1770

Extremely disturbing article on a new government sponsored Youth Movement in Russia that teaches the state is more important than the individual, obedience to the president, and that Stalin was the greatest leader of all time.  At their "Youth Camp" they have a section set aside for the youths to "procreate" called the "Love Oasis."  No drugs, alcohol, or thongs (they inhibit procreation, apparently) and no condoms either.

They are encourage to counter protests and are free to ignore protest laws so long as they follow the official party line.  They have gatherings to collect and burn "unpatriotic" books and the police do nothing when they vandalized an embassy (Moscow police are usually quick to beat down any crowd).  What's worse, many of these teachings are being mandated in the classroom.

It would be like GW adopting and funding the Christian Coalition to teach school and do his bidding.  Scary stuff.

"f tens of thousands of uniformed German youngsters were marching across Germany in support of an authoritarian Fuhrer, baiting foreigners and praising Hitler, alarm bells would be jangling all across Europe. So why aren't they ringing about Nashi?"

Found that interesting anyway...

[iplaw]

Putin is one creepy guy.  I forsee big problems with Russia in the future especially vis-a-vis Iran.  Putin has systematically and slowly began to rebuild a communistic Russia.  His term is coming to an end, but the next guy in line will just be a puppet.

This will be the greatest foreign policy challenge for the next president...IMO.

Did anyone happen to see that we got NK not only to abandon it's nuclear program, but to dismantle what they have already created?  Interesting that it really wasn't reported on at all.  Pretty significant development and I heard practically NOTHING about it in the news.

[cannon_fodder]

Interesting points IP.  I did hear that NK backed down, but I did not really grasp the extent.  Basically, we got everything back to the status quo (we feed their people, they pretend they do and we let them think so so long as NK doesnt t threaten the rest of the world).

Also, I think its cute you think Putin won't find a way to "extend" his term.  I will be surprised if there is even a pretend exchange of power.  I will be more surprised if the man is not denounced as an outright puppet within 6 months by all but the Kremlin itself.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Also, I think its cute you think Putin won't find a way to "extend" his term.  I will be surprised if there is even a pretend exchange of power.  I will be more surprised if the man is not denounced as an outright puppet within 6 months by all but the Kremlin itself.

I will also be interested to see if the sycophants in Russia (like Gorbachev)who have been decrying the Bush admin and American "Imperialism" will be so vocal once Putin starts to destroy everything they worked so hard to build during the 90's...they may finally get to see what "imperialism" actually looks like if Putin starts collecting all of Russia's breakaway republics...

[cannon_fodder]

Wow, that attempt would be very interesting.  I would anticipate more than token resistance from the "stans" and most of Eastern Europe.

[tim huntzinger]

I saw that link on Drudge but never read it.  I thought it was great but now am less sure.

We need more babies, that is for sure.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger


We need more babies, that is for sure.

Why, again, do we need more babies?  I was under the impression that the world was being over populated and that babies were ridiculously expensive and time consuming.

[cannon_fodder]

and for good measure... the camp also includes military training and excellent soviet style slogans:

quote:"Forward, Putin Generation! The 7th of May! We have been with the President for 7 years!"

not to mention a blatant anti west agenda:
"Nashi sees its job as preventing the kind of revolution that brought pro-Western politicians to power in neighboring Ukraine in late 2004."

[tim huntzinger]

Not overpopulated, just poorly managed.  Babies give, too, don'tcha know . . .

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Not overpopulated, just poorly managed.  Babies give, too, don'tcha know . . .

i duno, looks pretty fun to me.  Guns, Sex...just need some rock and roll.

[swake]

I think the west would be very well served to not overreact here and to take a long term and non-confrontational position towards Russia. We do not want another pointless cold war situation.

Russia is a paranoid nation, and with good reason. Over and over in the last 200 years the west has gone to war with and invaded Russia. Napoleon burned Moscow, the United States invaded during the Russian civil war between 1918 and 1920. Russia had more casualties in World Wars I and II than any other modern nation. Almost 15% of the Soviet Union's population was killed in WWII with 26 million dead and another 15 million wounded. And that was just 60 years ago. Fear and hate of the west is very well ingrained in the Russian psyche, with good reason, and having potentially threatening western armies and armament on their borders scares Russians no matter their political leanings. And Putin is very Russian.

The eastern block of nations was a construct that yes furthered aims of Soviet world domination, but also was a defense line for the motherland. That defense line is gone. NATO is now in nations right next door and is growing and Bush's missile defense shield right next door is another indication to Russians that they have much to fear (again) from the west.

Weather Putin got spooked by western fortification on his doorstep and decided he needed a more unified and stronger Russia or if he it used as a pretext for recentralizing power is kind of irrelevant.  Our reaction is incredibly important and we have been again clueless with international relations. Bush was stupid to push the defense shield but having done so now we can't allow Russia to dictate where NATO and it's weapons are located. Bush has painted us in a bad corner yet again. The defense shield was always more about Russia than "terrorists" and is somewhat pointless since Russians are far from stupid and are well aware that while our Tridents, while not currently targeted at them, can be retargeted in seconds and there is nothing they can do about those subs.

We were beyond foolish in pushing/allowing the Russians to act defensive. Bush embracing Putin is also a kind of stupid tactic. The President of the United States should not be overfriendly to someone that is being hostile to us. Meeting was the right thing to do, but the sailboat was silly and the whole tone of the meeting seemed to take issues too lightly. This was proven to be the case by Russia's threat to retarget missiles just a week later.  Inviting Russian participation in the missile shield program is an interesting gambit, but seemingly offering to allow Russians access to our technology in the current situation is beyond belief stupid. Bush is simply clueless. He simply cannot leave office soon enough.

[cannon_fodder]

Good points Swake, I understand and appreciate Russia's unique history and place in the world.  But many of their problems are self inflicted.

Russia's own empire building and isolationism created the rift between East and West in the 1800's.  Mismanagement caused many of the casualties in WWII (kill off all your top generals and the way is not likely to go well, nor were mass formations particularly effective against machine guns).  But to be sure, they took the brunt of the war effort.

Likewise, Russia's ruling class has always been paranoid (well, since the Romanov's for sure) as their rule was not guaranteed.  Historically, both Czarist governments, revolutionary leaders, and communist heads of state went to great lengths to consolidate their power and hold it as long as possible.  I have yet to determine if that is what Putin is interested in or if he really thinks his current trajectory is best for the Russian people.

[iplaw]

quote:I think the west would be very well served to not overreact here and to take a long term and non-confrontational position towards Russia. We do not want another pointless cold war situation.

Russia is a paranoid nation, and with good reason. Over and over in the last 200 years the west has gone to war with and invaded Russia. Napoleon burned Moscow, the United States invaded during the Russian civil war between 1918 and 1920. Russia had more casualties in World Wars I and II than any other modern nation. Almost 15% of the Soviet Union's population was killed in WWII with 26 million dead and another 15 million wounded. And that was just 60 years ago. Fear and hate of the west is very well ingrained in the Russian psyche, with good reason, and having potentially threatening western armies and armament on their borders scares Russians no matter their political leanings. And Putin is very Russian.

I love it, is there any totalitarian regime you can't get behind? [] That has to be the rosiest review of russian history I've ever heard.  You do remember that Russian attempted to invade Poland during WWII right? And that whole communisim and Stalin nonsense should be ignored too.[xx(]

Also, am I to understand that the US was somehow unjustified in being as fearful and reactionary with Russia, or is the only justified fear one that places the US as the antagonist?

quote:
The eastern block of nations was a construct that yes furthered aims of Soviet world domination, but also was a defense line for the motherland. That defense line is gone. NATO is now in nations right next door and is growing and Bush's missile defense shield right next door is another indication to Russians that they have much to fear (again) from the west.

You do remember that they brutally oppressed the eastern bloc nations right...that's why their defensive line is gone, because those people are free to associate as they choose, and they are choosing the US over Russia, and for good cause.

quote:
Weather Putin got spooked by western fortification on his doorstep and decided he needed a more unified and stronger Russia or if he it used as a pretext for recentralizing power is kind of irrelevant.  Our reaction is incredibly important and we have been again clueless with international relations. Bush was stupid to push the defense shield but having done so now we can't allow Russia to dictate where NATO and it's weapons are located. Bush has painted us in a bad corner yet again. The defense shield was always more about Russia than "terrorists" and is somewhat pointless since Russians are far from stupid and are well aware that while our Tridents, while not currently targeted at them, can be retargeted in seconds and there is nothing they can do about those subs.

I can assure you that the next president will proceed likewise with a missile defense shield, as the shield is NOT intended to intercept MIRV ICBMs.  The technology to defend the US against Russian missiles with their sheer numbers simply doesn't exist.  Current technology has a difficult time tracking and eliminating a single missile...

quote:
We were beyond foolish in pushing/allowing the Russians to act defensive. Bush embracing Putin is also a kind of stupid tactic. The President of the United States should not be overfriendly to someone that is being hostile to us. Meeting was the right thing to do, but the sailboat was silly and the whole tone of the meeting seemed to take issues too lightly. This was proven to be the case by Russia's threat to retarget missiles just a week later.  Inviting Russian participation in the missile shield program is an interesting gambit, but seemingly offering to allow Russians access to our technology in the current situation is beyond belief stupid. Bush is simply clueless. He simply cannot leave office soon enough.

Glass always half empty Swake...he doesn't engage Iran and North Korea diplomatically and you call him isolationist, he does engage in diplomacy with Russia and it's overfriendly.  I can't wait for Bush to be out of office so you guys don't have the scapegoat any longer.  You do realize that Russia has offered the US significant concessions regarding placement of the missile defense batteries since that meeting...or do you just like complaining about Bush so you ignore all that?  I'm guessing you just like to complain.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:I think the west would be very well served to not overreact here and to take a long term and non-confrontational position towards Russia. We do not want another pointless cold war situation.

Russia is a paranoid nation, and with good reason. Over and over in the last 200 years the west has gone to war with and invaded Russia. Napoleon burned Moscow, the United States invaded during the Russian civil war between 1918 and 1920. Russia had more casualties in World Wars I and II than any other modern nation. Almost 15% of the Soviet Union's population was killed in WWII with 26 million dead and another 15 million wounded. And that was just 60 years ago. Fear and hate of the west is very well ingrained in the Russian psyche, with good reason, and having potentially threatening western armies and armament on their borders scares Russians no matter their political leanings. And Putin is very Russian.

I love it, is there any totalitarian regime you can't get behind? [] That has to be the rosiest review of russian history I've ever heard.  You do remember that Russian attempted to invade Poland during WWII right? And that whole communisim and Stalin nonsense should be ignored too.[xx(]

Also, am I to understand that the US was somehow unjustified in being as fearful and reactionary with Russia, or is the only justified fear one that places the US as the antagonist?

quote:
The eastern block of nations was a construct that yes furthered aims of Soviet world domination, but also was a defense line for the motherland. That defense line is gone. NATO is now in nations right next door and is growing and Bush's missile defense shield right next door is another indication to Russians that they have much to fear (again) from the west.

You do remember that they brutally oppressed the eastern bloc nations right...that's why their defensive line is gone, because those people are free to associate as they choose, and they are choosing the US over Russia, and for good cause.

quote:
Weather Putin got spooked by western fortification on his doorstep and decided he needed a more unified and stronger Russia or if he it used as a pretext for recentralizing power is kind of irrelevant.  Our reaction is incredibly important and we have been again clueless with international relations. Bush was stupid to push the defense shield but having done so now we can't allow Russia to dictate where NATO and it's weapons are located. Bush has painted us in a bad corner yet again. The defense shield was always more about Russia than "terrorists" and is somewhat pointless since Russians are far from stupid and are well aware that while our Tridents, while not currently targeted at them, can be retargeted in seconds and there is nothing they can do about those subs.

I can assure you that the next president will proceed likewise with a missile defense shield, as the shield is NOT intended to intercept MIRV ICBMs.  The technology to defend the US against Russian missiles with their sheer numbers simply doesn't exist.  Current technology has a difficult time tracking and eliminating a single missile...

quote:
We were beyond foolish in pushing/allowing the Russians to act defensive. Bush embracing Putin is also a kind of stupid tactic. The President of the United States should not be overfriendly to someone that is being hostile to us. Meeting was the right thing to do, but the sailboat was silly and the whole tone of the meeting seemed to take issues too lightly. This was proven to be the case by Russia's threat to retarget missiles just a week later.  Inviting Russian participation in the missile shield program is an interesting gambit, but seemingly offering to allow Russians access to our technology in the current situation is beyond belief stupid. Bush is simply clueless. He simply cannot leave office soon enough.

Glass always half empty Swake...he doesn't engage Iran and North Korea diplomatically and you call him isolationist, he does engage in diplomacy with Russia and it's overfriendly.  I can't wait for Bush to be out of office so you guys don't have the scapegoat any longer.  You do realize that Russia has offered the US significant concessions regarding placement of the missile defense batteries since that meeting...or do you just like complaining about Bush so you ignore all that?  I'm guessing you just like to complain.

Nice trick, trying to associate me with a lot of positions that I never said anything about nor do I support.

Should we act in a fearful manner with Russia? Absolutely not, we should act in a manner that does not create tension needlessly (there are plenty of real reasons for tension) between our nations. And we should always be inwardly very wary of Russia and always be prepared. "Speak softly and carry a big stick" should be our diplomatic mantra with Russia.

As for the Eastern Bloc, I never said these nations weren't oppressed. The Soviet Union and Maoist China were evil at a level seen by very few states in history. You could make a strong case for worse than any other including Nazi Germany. These two countries murdered more of their own people than all the people that died in all the worlds wars combined.

And, do you really think that the president of the United States should act like he's best friends with the leader of Russia after all the threats they have made recently against the west? After attempting to assassinate the president of Ukraine, a NATO partner and prospective member? Have diplomatic relations with another nation is one thing, what Bush did is another.

Your blinders to Bush's failures are simply stunning.

[iplaw]

quote:
Should we act in a fearful manner with Russia?

Depends on how they behave.  Selling arms to Iran and assisting them in securing nuclear weapons...committing acts of murder against ex-patriots...putting the head of the largest oil co. in Russia in jail to steal Lukoil...claiming stake to the North Pole and it's resources....keeping the US from protecting itself from rogue nuclear threats (which Russia has a hand in creating)...reviving a communistic Russia...  These issues aren't insignificant.  What gives you any indication that Putin has any interest in keeping Russia on a democratic path?

quote:
And we should always be inwardly very wary of Russia and always be prepared. "Speak softly and carry a big stick" should be our diplomatic mantra with Russia.

There is no "big stick" with Russia.  They have a nuclear arsenal that can wipe out the population of the world...keeping Russia from sliding back into communisim is a real concern.

quote:
And, do you really think that the president of the United States should act like he's best friends with the leader of Russia after all the threats they have made recently against the west? After attempting to assassinate the president of Ukraine, a NATO partner and prospective member? Have diplomatic relations with another nation is one thing, what Bush did is another.

I agree with you, but you have advocated for us having diplomatic relationships with people like the two cranks in NK and Iran.  Not only advocated, but chided Bush for not doing so sooner.  How can you reconcile the two positions?

quote:
Your blinders to Bush's failures are simply stunning.

As is your blind hatred of everything he does, without exception.  No matter what his action, you condem it.  And your inability to see his successes.  Did you ever comment on his tremendous success with North Korea...cricket.....cricket.....cricket.