Downtown Wal-Mart

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace


4. This shouldn't leave any room for a baseball or soccer stadium so that long running argument (soccer! baseball! SOCCER! BASEBALL!) is dead.

Gee.  Ain't payback a bee-atch... enjoy your new SuperWalMart, suckuhzzzzzz....

This should never have been primarily about the sports stadium... should have been about the forty acres...... oh, wait... twenty acres and a mule... oh, wait... one square block of mixed-use new urbanism that's gonna be big... no, I mean it... really big... I heard it from Michael Eisner... no, Tim Kissler... c'mon... trust me...

The guys from DC who bought MLS's DC United who were going to bring pro soccer back to Tulsa didn't tell the whole truth... to anyone.  This includes MLS and the city of Tulsa.  It's a shame, really.

Instead of arguing over the merits of the 40 acres of walkable urbanity part of GDP's proposal, I was stuck arguing over the less-important part of the project... oh, gee, Average Joe... yes, indeedley doodley... a double-A baseball park is soooooooo much more important to downtown Tulsa than attracting MLS, a league that had been actively  recruiting this city despite its small size... I'm still angry over the naysayers who decided a new minor league ballpark is preferable to Major League Soccer... the soccer part of this  goes back not only to former mayor LaFortune but to Susan Savage as well.... but we can't git-r-done for soccer fans here, who just need to take a backseat... yet again.

LaFortune is still the only person in the last decade who spoke common sense when it came to ideas for downtown development... Taylor ain't saying nothing, probably because she saw the political damage it did to her predecesor... too bad political partisans on both sides have poisoned the well for at least the last 20 years and evidently aim for the next 20 years as well...

Cool off Ruf! Its like making sausage, not too many people will eat it if they ever see the process up close. Stand back a little let our little burg wrestle with itself. Good stuff happens in spite of our best efforts. You have pithy comments and argue tenaciously but I think you lack the faith that others like yourself and the more erudite on this forum will prevail. It wasn't evil that destroyed downtown, it was apathy and economics. And it won't be "good" that rebuilds it, but passion and greed. Ya gotta have the faith. More often than not stupid wins, but that makes the successes all the more sweet. Enough Oprah think...damn I gotta block that channel.

Soccer is an inevitability. The investment made with our kids back in the late 70's-80's has yet to flower but the seeds were planted. We will have to meet that demand as those generations take the reins. Maybe the river bank is the best place for a soccer stadium. Certainly a better investment than 30million for useless pedestrian bridges.

How about a soccer stadium on the west bank near the proposed 41st Street bridge? Isn't there a big soccer complex already going in over there? Could be a beautiful location with river views, two miles from Brookside, could potentially be integrated with River Parks and also give a boost to the Red Fork area.

[Rico]

"LaFortune is still the only person in the last decade who spoke common sense when it came to ideas for downtown development..."

^^^^
Say Rufie whatever you smokin put me down for a kilo....

[USRufnex]

I should have a more detailed response, Rico.... but the cliffnotes version involves former mayor LaFortune's successful Vision 2025 effort that passed with 60% of the vote... the former mayor who openly discussed Tulsa's inability to retain many of its own citizens... discussed attracting young couples, 20-somethings and "empty-nesters" to a rejuvenated downtown...

A sad story of political partisanship on both sides, hypocrisy, Great Plains Airlines, DESCO, Boeing, MLS, CS&L, GDP, "confidentiality agreements," TIF's, starbonds, Maurice Kanbar, Winnercomm, Express Sports, craziness from The Tulsa Beacon and KFAQ, and republicans who eat-their-own... then, after chewing him up and spitting him out, still endorse him in the general election...

Oh, and about the former mayor who wanted to turn downtown Tulsa into a "sports complex"???

I'll give you a hint... her name wasn't "LaFortune."  []

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE


How about a soccer stadium on the west bank near the proposed 41st Street bridge? Isn't there a big soccer complex already going in over there? Could be a beautiful location with river views, two miles from Brookside, could potentially be integrated with River Parks and also give a boost to the Red Fork area.

Yes, there are soccer fields there now and plenty of fairly cheap land that could be redeveloped. Making the 41st bridge pedestrian-only is a mistake in my book but I'd rather have pedestrian than nothing.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

"LaFortune is still the only person in the last decade who spoke common sense when it came to ideas for downtown development..."

^^^^
Say Rufie whatever you smokin put me down for a kilo....

I talked to Lafortune for about an hour on it. I would say that he wasn't the best informed.

[buckeye]

Major League Soccer?

In an unscientific poll of soccer fans I know (one), the idea was received well.

Best hold off on this one until the immigrants have disposable cash.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace


4. This shouldn't leave any room for a baseball or soccer stadium so that long running argument (soccer! baseball! SOCCER! BASEBALL!) is dead.

Gee.  Ain't payback a bee-atch... enjoy your new SuperWalMart, suckuhzzzzzz....

This should never have been primarily about the sports stadium... should have been about the forty acres...... oh, wait... twenty acres and a mule... oh, wait... one square block of mixed-use new urbanism that's gonna be big... no, I mean it... really big... I heard it from Michael Eisner... no, Tim Kissler... c'mon... trust me...

The guys from DC who bought MLS's DC United who were going to bring pro soccer back to Tulsa didn't tell the whole truth... to anyone.  This includes MLS and the city of Tulsa.  It's a shame, really.

Instead of arguing over the merits of the 40 acres of walkable urbanity part of GDP's proposal, I was stuck arguing over the less-important part of the project... oh, gee, Average Joe... yes, indeedley doodley... a double-A baseball park is soooooooo much more important to downtown Tulsa than attracting MLS, a league that had been actively  recruiting this city despite its small size... I'm still angry over the naysayers who decided a new minor league ballpark is preferable to Major League Soccer... the soccer part of this  goes back not only to former mayor LaFortune but to Susan Savage as well.... but we can't git-r-done for soccer fans here, who just need to take a backseat... yet again.

LaFortune is still the only person in the last decade who spoke common sense when it came to ideas for downtown development... Taylor ain't saying nothing, probably because she saw the political damage it did to her predecesor... too bad political partisans on both sides have poisoned the well for at least the last 20 years and evidently aim for the next 20 years as well...

Cool off Ruf! Its like making sausage, not too many people will eat it if they ever see the process up close. Stand back a little let our little burg wrestle with itself. Good stuff happens in spite of our best efforts. You have pithy comments and argue tenaciously but I think you lack the faith that others like yourself and the more erudite on this forum will prevail. It wasn't evil that destroyed downtown, it was apathy and economics. And it won't be "good" that rebuilds it, but passion and greed. Ya gotta have the faith. More often than not stupid wins, but that makes the successes all the more sweet. Enough Oprah think...damn I gotta block that channel.

Soccer is an inevitability. The investment made with our kids back in the late 70's-80's has yet to flower but the seeds were planted. We will have to meet that demand as those generations take the reins. Maybe the river bank is the best place for a soccer stadium. Certainly a better investment than 30million for useless pedestrian bridges.

How about a soccer stadium on the west bank near the proposed 41st Street bridge? Isn't there a big soccer complex already going in over there? Could be a beautiful location with river views, two miles from Brookside, could potentially be integrated with River Parks and also give a boost to the Red Fork area.

One of the commercial property companies (Brandt, I think) has a few parcels of open land for sale roughly west of that park.  There's more which could be acquired for such a development.

Since I don't have kids in soccer, I don't have the slightest clue what the demand is for a pro soccer stadium these days.  Anyone got an idea?  Is it like it used to be when Green Country Soccer first came in and then the Roughnecks?  Is there as much amateur participation in soccer as there used to be? More?

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by buckeye

Major League Soccer?

In an unscientific poll of soccer fans I know (one), the idea was received well.

Best hold off on this one until the immigrants have disposable cash.

^
Senor..... The idea in Tulsa is to dispose of the immigrants before they have disposable $cash$......

Haven't you heard... The contractors now get the job done and then sell their liabilities to the Immigration....

Boom Town!

[}:)]

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

quote:Originally posted by elm

I think now would be a good time for the City (for instance, the MAYOR) to surface with a statement of vision for how this project might fit in with the context of our city and what our city's expectations are for the developer (and by extension, Wal-Mart).  The real question that I would have of the Mayor is:  Do you know what you should want or expect of this development and what tools you have at your disposal to "guide" them?....

So, let's first ask in the strongest possible way, that the Mayor take a crack at forming a vision statement that elevates the expectations and possibilities.  We DO NOT WANT OR NEED a traditional strip center with huge fields of parking in front.  NOPE.  We DO want and need retail, groceries, housing, entertainment downtown....

Welcome to the discussion, elm.  I agree.  

But read through all the pages of posts on this topic.  If tax increment financing is allowed, then I think the City has some leverage if officials don't cave as they did on the Tulsa Hills TIF district.  Otherwise, it's a private development on private property.  The City has allowed for a situation such as this one by vacating public streets and alleys for decades.

I did not attend those Tulsa Hills meetings and hearings.  I spoke with someone today who did, and she said that the Planning Commission was able to work something out with the developer to provide bus stops, curbs, and sidewalks.  Looks like I was wrong.  

If Seayco pursues TIF, then I hope the City will demand very high quality urban design standards.

[USRufnex]

If Seayco pursues TIF, I hope the city grants a TIF on the basis of funding the ballpark... after all, why should a TIF be used for a business that will not be a regional attraction?... or as former mayor LaFortune put it... a "destination"...?!?

oh, and conan, you can find a response to your question here...
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7028

[Jamie]

Mayor Kathy Taylor
200, Civic Center, 11th Floor
Tulsa, OK 74103

August 30, 2007

Dear Mayor Taylor,
RE.: DOWNTOWN WAL-MART

First, I want to congratulate you on the purposeful approach you and your team have taken in addressing a wide range of issues, especially on the upcoming City Hall move.  The purpose of this letter is to help you turn Downtown Tulsa into the vital, dynamic, funky, walkable place it has to be, to compete for business in the 21st Century.  

I am therefore writing to express my strong objections to the City's funding of anything resembling a suburban Wal-Mart in Downtown Tulsa's 'East End'.

For several years my company has worked collaboratively with the City and with the Pearl District Association, to help create a walkable, downtown neighborhood that embraces the new century's opportunities and imperatives.  It has taken six, long years so far, and our early successes are very evident.

Wal-Mart's fundamentally suburban design concept conflicts with every lesson we've learned about downtown design; and it would be right on our door-step.  It conflicts in scale (a 150,000sf store is far too big), it conflicts in land-use principles, architectural design, parking layout, street-presence, window placement and signage.  It conflicts with Tulsa's long-term economic, demographic and environmental interests.  It even conflicts with Wal-Mart's own, up-to-the-minute thinking about smaller, city-center stores.  In short, it's a Neanderthal.

Yes, of course we want a grocery store in Downtown.  But it must enhance Downtown's distinctiveness, the scale must be appropriate, and it must promote the development of viable stores, businesses, homes and other amenities nearby.  It must be truly pedestrian-friendly.  It should be multi-story.  It should front directly onto a sidewalk, have windows onto pedestrian streets, be street-scaped for an urban setting, and its parking should be structured, attractive, shared and at the rear (or underneath).

Downtown Drillers
This Wal-Mart proposal comes at a crucial time.  We have a huge opportunity to bring the Tulsa Drillers to Downtown Tulsa.  Ball-parks thrive in pedestrian-friendly, downtown settings.  (Check out the Rockies' 'Coors Field' in Denver.)  So we must seize this opportunity to raise the bar, - not lower it.  Let's help the Drillers design for a Downtown context, and insist that a Downtown grocery partner collaborate fully with the city to provide a truly compatible, urban' design within walking distance.  Other good ideas are ready and waiting too - notably from the Pearl District Association - that will add value to a 'Downtown Drillers' concept.  

It would be a huge, strategic mistake if, in our eagerness to attract the Drillers we tolerate a big-box behemoth of a Downtown grocery store, set back from the street, with desolate, toxic, surface parking.

There's a no-brainer solution here for Wal-Mart: Invite them to put an urgently-needed, neighborhood grocery store where customer demand, infrastructure, public funding structure - and even the building itself – are primed and ready: at Pine & Peoria.

Let's insist on distinctive, world-class solutions for Tulsa.  Let's not dumb-down Downtown.

And let me know how we can help.

With Best Wishes,


Jamie Jamieson
Manager, The Village At Central Park, LLC

[Rico]

"There�s a no-brainer solution here for Wal-Mart: Invite them to put an urgently-needed, neighborhood grocery store where customer demand, infrastructure, public funding structure - and even the building itself � are primed and ready: at Pine & Peoria."



Very Good Letter Jamie.

I pulled this paragraph from the entire text as this is exactly what other Cities are doing.

They place guidelines by which the corporate members of the community can participate as a true partner of the City.  

The above statement also is reflective of the current
"Corporate Mission Statement" being espoused by WalMart.

Make them live up to their words.

We need to get out of the trend of bribing? corporations to become part of Tulsa.

Get off your knees Tulsa and respect yourself.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by Jamie


It would be a huge, strategic mistake if, in our eagerness to attract the Drillers we tolerate a big-box behemoth of a Downtown grocery store, set back from the street, with desolate, toxic, surface parking.

There's a no-brainer solution here for Wal-Mart: Invite them to put an urgently-needed, neighborhood grocery store where customer demand, infrastructure, public funding structure - and even the building itself – are primed and ready: at Pine & Peoria.

Let's insist on distinctive, world-class solutions for Tulsa.

Good letter, Jamie.  Please post Mayor Taylor's response the instant you receive it.

It also would be a huge, strategic mistake if, in our overly-eager desperation to attract the Drillers, we tolerate the closing of more public streets downtown.  We need to maintain the fine-grained pattern of streets and blocks as much as we can.  A new Drillers stadium might fit on the site northeast of Archer and Elgin.  But otherwise, there are not good locations for a baseball stadium downtown without disrupting the street grid.  

[waterboy]

For an area that is no doubt the last bastion of bootstraps capitalism, it always amazes me that we admire small businessmen who make it on their own but we beg the Drillers, who don't need the help, and offer them a variety of perks including a new free stadium if they'll just play ball with us. Meanwhile, a small businessman has to beg, plead and sell his soul just to serve the city.

I agree Rico. No self-esteem.

[booWorld]

Yes, for decades I've had the dream of working like the dickens so I can fork over my tax dollars in order to finance the construction of a private ballpark so that grown men can have a nice place to be paid to play games.  

Priorities, priorities...