Mandatory deportation has illegals on the run

[Lister]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Lister

Well, when it's all said and done, they are leaving and that's a good thing. It seems like many of you want illegals here to profit off their sweat without regard to the law. You keep talking about the economics of it all. If that's not taking advantage of a whole group of people then I don't know what is.

Not what I'm saying at all, Lister.  I'd simply like to know if people like you are willing to pay a premium, i.e. more taxes, in order to fill the gap they leave after you chase them away.  How about it?  You ready to raise taxes on yourself?

The answer to that is a definite YES. I won't sell out because I like the cost of slave labor. Michael C, be careful, or you'll end up like me, everything I submit has to go through Winston Smith for approval before it is posted because I got out of hand a couple of times. []

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Lister

quote:Originally posted by Chicken LittleYou ready to raise taxes on yourself?

The answer to that is a definite YES. I won't sell out because I like the cost of slave labor. Michael C, be careful, or you'll end up like me, everything I submit has to go through Winston Smith for approval before it is posted because I got out of hand a couple of times. []

Thank you for being a grownup, Lister.  I respect someone who is willing to deal with the consequences of their actions...some of them, at least.  

I disagree with our State's and our city's "solutions", for a number of reasons:
1. I think that the only way to implement these "solutions" effectively is through racial profiling;
2.  Because of #1, they have already resulted in the wrongful persecution of US Citizens of Hispanic and Latino descent;
3.  Because of #1 and #2, we are driving people away, many, if not most, here legally, and
4.  Without a federal solution, the actions by the city and state are futile and unecessarily harmful to our economy...putting us at an economic disadvantage.  

Moreover, I believe that the federal "solutions" since 1986, i.e., amnesties coupled with tougher immigration quotas, have resulted in a disasterous interruption in the flow of one of our country's greatest resources...people who come here with a dream.  And I think that, if these folks were fair-skinned, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place, and deep down that really hurts.  The irony here is that those immigrants are doing exactly what previous waves of immigrants (our forefathers) did, working hard and trying to get ahead.  It's us that have forgotton what it means to be an American, not them.

[truth4freedom]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little
I'd simply like to know if people like you are willing to pay a premium, i.e. more taxes, in order to fill the gap they leave after you chase them away.  How about it?  You ready to raise taxes on yourself?

You still haven't answered my refutation of your point. Less demand on the services equals no increase in taxes. Simple economics. Maybe he still has me on ignore from a disagreement we had about homosexuality a few months back.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little
I'd simply like to know if people like you are willing to pay a premium, i.e. more taxes, in order to fill the gap they leave after you chase them away.  How about it?  You ready to raise taxes on yourself?

You still haven't answered my refutation of your point. Less demand on the services equals no increase in taxes. Simple economics. Maybe he still has me on ignore from a disagreement we had about homosexuality a few months back.

City services are pretty inelastic.    Streets, water, sewer, fire stations, etc., these things are already built and in place.    The city is responsible for maintaining these systems, regardless of the amount of users. The trash trucks will still be going up and down every street, regardless of the number of vacant houses.  Get it? Considering how bad the streets are already, do you really think it's a terrific idea to kick out 5-10% of our taxpayers?  If there are fewer people supporting these things, then, logically, those people will have to pay more.

The only place where you have any wiggle room at all is with personnel, the majority of that goes to policemen and firemen.  In theory, you could start laying off cops, but do you really think that's a good idea?

My point is, chasing off 20,000 or 50,000 people will have consequences.  Big boys like Lister will face them...others apparently won't.

I don't remember a previous disagreement and I generally don't care about that stuff.  I simply missed your question.  Sorry about that.

[truth4freedom]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little
The only place where you have any wiggle room at all is with personnel, the majority of that goes to policemen and firemen.  In theory, you could start laying off cops, but do you really think that's a good idea?

My point is, chasing off 20,000 or 50,000 people will have consequences.  Big boys like Lister will face them...others apparently won't.

I don't remember a previous disagreement and I generally don't care about that stuff.  I simply missed your question.  Sorry about that.

I see your point on permanent infrastructure. As far as reduction in emergency personnel etc. I don't see that happening. You are right that a loss of citizens, legal or not, will hurt. But I submit to you that it will not hurt nearly as much as the draw illegal immigrants have on many social government programs and the medical field as well. When one hospital visit can rack up thousands of dollars overnight that is a much larger savings if it never happened than the tax revenue from a minimum wage earner. Sending an illegals children to school when they may or may not be filing for taxes is a massive imbalance.
Ultimately I am for driving out illegals because we have a slave class here making millions of dollars for wealthy employers. We are not doing these immigrants a favor by letting them slip under the radar, neither are we doing our justice system any good. And making them legal by a piece of legislation didn't work during the Reagan era so why would it be any different now? I want legal immigrant workers here, and I think that reworking the immigration procedure is just as important as demanding there not exist a slave class under our noses to make us more money and provide us with cheap labor. Unless a stand is taken ,the border sealed, and illegal immigrants are unable to exist here, we will never solve this issue. The mistake of many legislators and good hearted people is to try and legalize the immigrants first, then work on stopping the illegal flow. Only they have no intention of doing anything about the border or the broken justice system once millions of illegals are 'legalized'.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom

I see your point on permanent infrastructure. As far as reduction in emergency personnel etc. I don't see that happening. You are right that a loss of citizens, legal or not, will hurt. But I submit to you that it will not hurt nearly as much as the draw illegal immigrants have on many social government programs and the medical field as well. When one hospital visit can rack up thousands of dollars overnight that is a much larger savings if it never happened than the tax revenue from a minimum wage earner. Sending an illegals children to school when they may or may not be filing for taxes is a massive imbalance.
Ultimately I am for driving out illegals because we have a slave class here making millions of dollars for wealthy employers. We are not doing these immigrants a favor by letting them slip under the radar, neither are we doing our justice system any good. And making them legal by a piece of legislation didn't work during the Reagan era so why would it be any different now? I want legal immigrant workers here, and I think that reworking the immigration procedure is just as important as demanding there not exist a slave class under our noses to make us more money and provide us with cheap labor. Unless a stand is taken ,the border sealed, and illegal immigrants are unable to exist here, we will never solve this issue. The mistake of many legislators and good hearted people is to try and legalize the immigrants first, then work on stopping the illegal flow. Only they have no intention of doing anything about the border or the broken justice system once millions of illegals are 'legalized'.

Assume, for a moment, that I agree with you that illegal aliens are a drain on welfare programs.  Those are federal programs.  If you drive them from this state into another, you still end up paying the same amount.  I'd speculate that as soon as the feds look at numbers, they'd cut back this state's entitlement.  So, in reality, we might end up paying the same into the system and receiving  less.  So, besides putting us in an unfair situation, what have you accomplished?

I, too, worry that our country is developing a permanent underclass...and a permanent aristocracy.  But these "solutions" that are about to go into effect are pretty cruddy.  Nobody's going to reward Oklahoma for passing a few laws that amount to institutionalized racism.

Oh, and as for the kids...first, don't be mean, they're just kids for crying out loud.  And second, property taxes support the schools.  As long as the undocumented family owns or rents a place to live, then they are paying taxes directly or indirectly through their landlord.  And don't be mad at the schools either.  The LAW says they should be in school, regardless.  I happen to like that law a lot...it reminds me that I'm an American, and there are still times when we feel a need to treat everybody equally.  I guarantee the truant officer isn't paying attention to skin color, he'll toss that butterfly net over anybody.

[truth4freedom]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little
I happen to like that law a lot...it reminds me that I'm an American, and there are still times when we feel a need to treat everybody equally.

Then why are you opposing the law being enforced in the case of illegal immigrants to save a few bucks and create a special class that receives unequaled rights under the law? Do you agree with Mexico's immigration laws? Do you think that we as Americans should be able to enter their country, or any country for that matter at will then use their federal benefits regardless of our legal immigration status?

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little
I happen to like that law a lot...it reminds me that I'm an American, and there are still times when we feel a need to treat everybody equally.

Then why are you opposing the law being enforced in the case of illegal immigrants to save a few bucks and create a special class that receives unequaled rights under the law? Do you agree with Mexico's immigration laws? Do you think that we as Americans should be able to enter their country, or any country for that matter at will then use their federal benefits regardless of our legal immigration status?

I'm against Tulsa and Oklahoma acting on a problem that requires a federal solution, and I've already stated my reasons, among them, that people aren't being treated equally.  You're right, undocumented workers are preyed upon, but how does a law that treats all people who appear to be Latino and Hispanic unfairly make the situation any better?  Two wrongs do not make a right.

As for the federal benefits, again, I have to question whether or not this is overblown.  Sure, there are some people that end up in the ER.  And yes, some people get paid cash under the table, but that's not the norm.  These days, I think a lot more folks are providing fake SSNs to their employers, and their employers in turn are paying federal withholding.  I'm not condoning it, I'm simply saying that most of these guys are paying into the system.  Maybe even more than you and me, since they aren't filing and getting refunds.

I really haven't studied Mexico's laws.  I believe that you should follow the laws of the country you are in or be willing to accept the consequences.  That goes for here, too.

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken LittleThat's your plan?  

[Jamesrage impression]
Dear friend,
Sorry I screwed you over with a racist immigration reform plan, now all our neighbors are kicking our butts:  with booming populations, soaring revenues, and growing workforces.  Maybe you should suck it, because I'm not going to pay an extra dime for the problems I've caused with my dumb new laws.  Whatever...I blame somebody else...unions...or Norwegians...dirty whale hunters.  
Up Yours, Jamesrage
[/Jamesrage impression]

Oh good more bogus accusations of racist and racist laws. Pro-illegals caused the problems,if anyone should pay the extra taxes it should be the businesses that knowingly hired illegals and the property owners who knowingly rented to illegals.

quote: What are you, a teenager or a Republican?  Either way, that's the kind of talk you hear from people who don't take responsibility for their actions.

Responsibility?If you were responsible you would not tolerate lawlessness too instead of trying to make asinine excuses for criminal behavior.



Here is Jamerage's actual impression

Dear friend,
YEAH!! WE WON!!,ILLEGALS AND THE PRO-ILLEGALS SCUM LOST,WE WON YOU LOST.If the other 49 states did what Oklahoma did we would not 12-20 million illegals in this country.Thank God Oklahoma exercised some common sense and dwelt with the illegal immigration problems in our state and thank God Oklahoma law makers did not listen to sell out businesses and other pro-illegals scum.

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken LittleNot what I'm saying at all, Lister.  I'd simply like to know if people like you are willing to pay a premium, i.e. more taxes, in order to fill the gap they leave after you chase them away.  How about it?  You ready to raise taxes on yourself?

What sales taxes have illegals been paying?Does Tulsa charge extremely high taxes on money wiring services to foreign countries,because that where illegals send most of their money to?What money can people who make below minimum wage contribute in sales taxes?No illegals means no children of illegals that have to schooled.No illegals in Tulsa means no illegals not using any city services.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by jamesrage

quote:Oh good more bogus accusations of racist and racist laws. Pro-illegals caused the problems,if anyone should pay the extra taxes it should be the businesses that knowingly hired illegals and the property owners who knowingly rented to illegals.

What are you, a teenager or a Republican?  Either way, that's the kind of talk you hear from people who don't take responsibility for their actions.

Responsibility?If you were responsible you would not tolerate lawlessness too instead of trying to make asinine excuses for criminal behavior.



Here is Jamerage's actual impression

Dear friend,
YEAH!! WE WON!!,ILLEGALS AND THE PRO-ILLEGALS SCUM LOST,WE WON YOU LOST.If the other 49 states did what Oklahoma did we would not 12-20 million illegals in this country.Thank God Oklahoma exercised some common sense and dwelt with the illegal immigration problems in our state and thank God Oklahoma law makers did not listen to sell out businesses and other pro-illegals scum.

James, do you realize that you posted the same thing yesterday, and that I responded to each of your problems?  Nevertheless:

1.  "Pro-illegals caused the problems,if anyone should pay the extra taxes it should be the businesses that knowingly hired illegals and the property owners who knowingly rented to illegals."  I barely know what this means...whose a "pro-illegal"?  But, whatever, how are you going to selectively tax these people.  You keep repeating this, so, either you think it's funny or you think it's a good idea.  So, how?

2."Responsibility?If you were responsible you would not tolerate lawlessness too instead of trying to make asinine excuses for criminal behavior."  If you would read, you would clearly see that I do not condone criminality nor do I make excuses for it.  If I "tolerate" lawlessness it is because I am not a federal law enforcement officer.  How am I to know whether someone is documented or not?  This vigilantism you call for is what's "asinine" and illegal.

3.  "What sales taxes have illegals been paying?"  Taxes on food, clothing, entertainment, fuel...they do everything that you and I do to survive between paychecks.

4.  "Dear friend, YEAH!! WE WON!!..." Yep, that reads about the same as my impression save for the fact that you still don't recognize that your actions have consequences.  Who's going to reward Oklahoma for your bigoted new laws?  Who's really going to pay for the losses when 20,000 people leave this City?  Obviously, you don't know the answers to these questions because I've asked them before.  You fail to recognize that your actions will have consequences and that you are responsible for your actions.  That's childlike behavior.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Lister

Well, when it's all said and done, they are leaving and that's a good thing. It seems like many of you want illegals here to profit off their sweat without regard to the law. You keep talking about the economics of it all. If that's not taking advantage of a whole group of people then I don't know what is.

No.  I want all the undocumented workers to be documented as guest workers and treated as such.  Because that's exactly what they've been doing here for years and years at the request of their AMERICAN employers.

When good people leave Tulsa, it's never a good thing.  It's a VERY BAD thing.  It was a pleasant surprise to see more ethnic areas in the city of Tulsa.  Tulsa needed it, badly.  I was afraid I'd miss that after moving from the "Little Pakistan" area of Chicago last year... I live in an apt complex in east Tulsa.

If the hispanic FAMILIES in my complex leave because of the racists in this city who pretend they're not being racists, you know what we've got left in my apt complex?!?

Young punks, drug dealers, redneck trailer trash on SSI and more possible methlabs.  At that point, I'll probably have to leave, too...

I'm glad that my old bowling alley at Tiffany Lanes is filled with tax paying hispanic businesses compared to the boarded up shell that is the old Rose Bowl these days... I'm glad that Executive Mall is filled with taxpaying businesses and that the old Skate World that could easily have been boarded up is now a supermercado.... and I hated that a co-worker and friend of mine is leaving with her family... she didn't come here from Mexico, she's from Houston, speaks perfect English and speaks Spanish, but even after living here in Tulsa for the past five years, she doesn't want her family to have to put up with the current atmosphere of xenophobia and racism... that's right, I said racism.  

And yes.  What this state is currently doing under the guise of a get-tough approach is wrong.

And even if it is unintentional, this is institutional racism.  I grew up here.  I know that NOBODY claims to be a racist in Oklahoma anymore.  It's passe.  So instead, these days the usual suspects just use the same law-and-order code-words on a message board...

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I hope we haven't reached the breaking point...

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

NOBODY claims to be a racist in Oklahoma anymore.  It's passe.

I admit to being a racist.  

In that I admit to thinking "probably illegal" when I see Mexican day Laborers or a house that has 6 Hispanic males living in it or deal with someone that is Hispanic and speaks very little English.

When I see a black youth with a "rag" on and baggy jeans down to his crotch pinned to his shirt so that I can see his boxers my first thoughts are that this is probably a worthless gang banger and wonder why he is not at work.  When I see a black man dressed well that is articulate it actually stands out as something out of the ordinary.  That's racist, I know it.

When I see an Asian guy with glasses and a collared shirt I assume he is a successful business man or engineer.  At oriental restaurants I'm secretly disappointed if the staff doesn't speak in Engrish.  

When I see a white person in a beat up pickup with mud caked on or wearing a shirt with sleeves torn sleeves off their flannel shirt or, god forbid, a fat chick in a halter top - I assume they are hicks from "down yonder" that are "in the city" for something.  Typical white trash I suppose.  A racist stereo type.  When I see a white guy dressed link a gangster he is a "wanna be."  Goths, punks... all have their stereo types.

I eyeball Arab men in airports.  Arab women in veils or robes draw my attention, I guess I'm thinking they are weak or repressed.
 

I can not help but glance conspicuously at a Sihk that goes to TU and wears a turban.  Not sure what I think about that.

I harbor these impressions and they are racist.  I understand that and KNOW that they are not correct and that even thinking such things is not kosher.  However, knowing that I am able to remind myself that I'm an idiot and try to take things beyond face value.  People dress as they want to dress, are born whatever color they are born, and leave as they want to live... it is not necessarily indicative of the rest of who they are.

Its my belief that most people have a guttural reaction based on first appearances - including race.  I'm just willing to admit it, deal with it, and move on.  People are people, appearance only gives you a best guess at what they are like - and it often isn't very good.

Slightly off topic, but there ya' have it.

[Hometown]

Well, Mr. Fodder gets credit for being honest.

When I see a White man in a Mercedes I think who did he kill to get that (or how many subprime loans did he write, how much income has he misstated on his tax returns, how often has he pressed his advantage against unsophisticated people).

I suspect that if I had a day or two to spend with most Oklahomans I could come up with a list of laws they break on a regular basis.  Aren't a very large number of Tulsans driving without insurance?  This image of native Oklahomans marching through life completely within the bounds of the law is ludicrous.

[iplaw]

quote:Aren't a very large number of Tulsans driving without insurance?

Yeah.  Many of them simultaneously happen to be illegal aliens...