The Tulsa Premium

[RecycleMichael]

There is no $6 trash premium in Tulsa.

How do you make up these numbers?

Do you just have big, fuzzy dice you roll?

Tulsa's residential trash rates are competitive for cities our size. We are 30% cheaper than Dallas and less than almost any other big city.

The trash-to-energy plant financing was more spread among businesses than residents the last twenty years, but those charges have been dramatically lowered this past summer.

How can I ever believe any of your conspiracy theories when you make up the facts on the things I know about?

[joiei]

There is a solution to your paying your Tulsa Premium.  Move to San Jose.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates
[br
And it seems like I heard that Coffeyville is one of the refineries that made Tulsa's special blend.

I've also heard we dont get gas from there.  Thats a problem with this issue is that everyone has "heard" this or that, but I'd like to see some actuall hard facts on where our gas comes from and what events warrent legitimate prices increases versus manufactured phantom price increases.

"Like many other regions, Tulsa has experienced in recent weeks sharp increases in gasoline prices. Here's why: our local regulators have entered into an agreement with EPA so that a special gasoline with 8.2 Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) is sold in Tulsa county during summer months. Tulsa is the only area in the nation where this particular gasoline is sold. As a result, no refiner manufactures it, but rather two different gasolines are mixed together to meet the 8.2 specification. Most of these two kinds of gasoline come from refineries on the Gulf Coast and are transported by pipeline to Tulsa. That was not a problem in 1999. Unfortunately, since last year, 98 counties in East Texas that are along the pipeline that connects Tulsa to the Gulf Coast refineries now require one of the gasolines that is blended to make Tulsa's fuel. That increased demand from motorists in the Texas counties caused an increase in the price of gasoline in our Tulsa market when the summer driving season began. Once again, this is a simple case of the relationship of supply, demand and price."
Written Statement of James McCarthy
General Manager, CITGO Petroleum Corporation
Before the Senate Agriculture Committee
July 20, 2000  
http://agriculture.senate.gov/Hearings/Hearings_2000/July_20__2000/00720mcc.htm

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7015

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

There is no $6 trash premium in Tulsa.

How do you make up these numbers?

Do you just have big, fuzzy dice you roll?

Tulsa's residential trash rates are competitive for cities our size. We are 30% cheaper than Dallas and less than almost any other big city.

The trash-to-energy plant financing was more spread among businesses than residents the last twenty years, but those charges have been dramatically lowered this past summer.

How can I ever believe any of your conspiracy theories when you make up the facts on the things I know about?

It appears that Mr. Recycled is dissembling again, so let's try to get to the basics of Truth and Trust.  Ready?

DID TULSA TRASH RATEPAYERS PAY A PREMIUM TO PAY FOR THE TRASH-TO-ENERGY PLANT?

WHAT WAS THAT MONTHLY AMOUNT PER RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMER TO SERVICE THE DEBT AT THE WALTER B. HALL PLANT?  Total cost was $180 million, financed over 20 years.

WAS IT $6.00 per month?

WAS IT $5.99?

WAS IT $5.98?

WAS IT $5.97?

WAS IT [$ .  ]?

How about a little HONESTY on the part of so distinguished a Forum Administrator??

Approximately $6.00 per month for the past 20 years was added to the residential water/sewer/trash bill for Residential users in the City of Tulsa.  

This was the Tulsa Premium to service the bonded indebtedness on the Hall Trash to Energy Plant.

After the plant was paid off last year, the TMUA KEPT collecting the entire Tulsa Premium.  

Then, to their chagrin when finally outed, they sheepishly reduced the Residential Tax rate by $1.00, and pocketed the remainder.

For the past 20 years, Tulsa trash ratepayers paid more than any major city in our surrounding states.

That is an unassailable fact.

Mr. Recycle is also deceptively referring to CURRENT residential rates, and CURRENT commercial rates.  The commercial rates did drop substantially.  Residential only dropped $1.00.

In fact, our residential rates were the highest in a five state region until the Trash-to-Energy plant financing was paid off, and our commercial rates were double the surrounding cities.

It's the Tulsa Premium.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by joiei

There is a solution to your paying your Tulsa Premium.  Move to San Jose.

Another Tulsa Premium is looming:

If the Kaiser River Tax passes Oct. 9, Tulsa's combined City/County/State Tax rate will be
8.917%.

Wonder how that wonderful new rate compares to our neighboring major cities, Oklahoma City, Little Rock, Dallas, and Houston?

We'll be the highest.

That's the Tulsa Premium.

[RecycleMichael]

Friendly Bear...if you want to be taken seriously, stop making up facts.

The trash to energy plant was financially unwise for Tulsa.

Senator Inhofe agreed to the contract and bound Tulsa to twenty years of a bad deal. That is correct.

There is and was no six dollar premium for residential ratepayers. Tulsa does not have the highest residential trash rates in the five state area, they are not even the highest rates in Oklahoma nor the Tulsa area.

I know that you will not listen to the facts. You would rather just make up your own.

Don't you and the other bears have some hibernating coming up soon?

[AMP]

We have our own Trash To Energy Plant where I live. Called a burn pit.  Cheap and Simple.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Friendly Bear...if you want to be taken seriously, stop making up facts.

The trash to energy plant was financially unwise for Tulsa.

Senator Inhofe agreed to the contract and bound Tulsa to twenty years of a bad deal. That is correct.

There is and was no six dollar premium for residential ratepayers. Tulsa does not have the highest residential trash rates in the five state area, they are not even the highest rates in Oklahoma nor the Tulsa area.

I know that you will not listen to the facts. You would rather just make up your own.

Don't you and the other bears have some hibernating coming up soon?

Gosh, there's so much anger bundled up there in you Recycle.  Why??  

EASY does it.

Nonetheless, you're parsing my words even better than Bill Clinton parsing "It depends on what the meaning of is, is".

You're sliding back and forth between tenses about PAST trash rates, and CURRENT trash rates.

It is still an unassailable fact that:

Approximately $6.00 per month for the past 20 years up through the fall of 2006 was buried in the monthly residential water/sewer/trash bill for Residential users in the City of Tulsa.

This was the Tulsa Premium to service the bonded indebtedness on the Hall Trash to Energy Plant.

After the plant was paid off last year, the TMUA KEPT collecting the entire Tulsa Premium.

Then, to their chagrin when finally outed, they sheepishly reduced the Residential Tax rate by $1.00, and pocketed the remainder.

For the past 20 years, Tulsa trash ratepayers paid more than any major city in our surrounding states.

That is also an unassailable fact.

Mr. Recycle has repeatedly and deceptively referred to CURRENT residential rates, and CURRENT commercial rates. The commercial rates did drop substantially. Residential only dropped a measley $1.00.

In fact, our residential rates were the highest in a five state region until the Trash-to-Energy plant financing was paid off, and our commercial rates were double the surrounding cities.

It's the Tulsa Premium.

P.S. Expect the Hibernation cycle to begin October 10.

[][]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

You started this thread making statements that Tulsans have to pay more for everything.Then it turns out it was just a temporary thing and Tulsans pay about the same as almost everybody around us.

Then you try to change the topic claiming there is some premium that must be paid to get a business started here. Your evidence is one person who once told you that he was unsuccessful. You then say that you have to hire an insider of ex-mayor to get things approved.

I think you need to go back to the woods next time you want to poop on Tulsa.

There are building permits and zoning changes and new businesses started here in Tulsa every month without insider permission. Yes, it helps to hire people who know all the rules and all the players, but that is probably true in most cities. Tulsa does not have any more problems or roadblocks than any similar sized city.

I know you really just wanted to bellow out loud. Bears do that.

Gosh, there you go TWISTING my comments, again.

Golly gee, Recycle, you'd better get a patent on your half-truth telling.  You could resale it to the Lorton's World. They just Loooooove the Half-Truth.......

Where did I say that Tulsans "pay more for everything"??

I've cited about half a dozen solid examples of the Tulsa Premium.

Would anyone else like to Extend my remarks??

[TurismoDreamin]

This is from the Tulsa World (8/31):

SOURCE LINK:http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070830_1__OKLAH76744

Oklahoma gasoline prices exceeded the national average Thursday and were higher than those of surrounding states as the Labor Day holiday weekend approached.

Industry analysts blame the higher prices in the region on a series of refinery outages, a Coffeyville, Kan., refinery that flooded earlier this summer, a large refinery outage in Illinois and the fire at the Wynnewood refinery in late spring.

"Coffeyville is right there in the center of the Midwestern area, so a disruption there causes problems throughout the region," said Bruce Bell, chairman emeritus of the Mid-Continent Oil and Gas Association of Oklahoma. "That's causing us to bring gasoline in from out of state and out of the region much more so than normal."

According to the AAA Daily Fuel Gauge Report, the national average for regular unleaded Thursday was $2.76 per gallon, while the average in Oklahoma City was $2.88. Gas was $2.87 in Tulsa, $2.61 in Dallas, $2.76 in Kansas City, Mo., $2.81 in Albuquerque and $2.61 in Little Rock, Ark.

Prices throughout the Plains and much of the Midwest are far above the national average.

Bell said it is also more difficult to move fuel throughout the country in the summer because the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency requires dozens of specially blended fuels for parts of the nation. The summer blends are required until Sept. 15.

Chris Newton, president of the Texas Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Store Association, also attributed the price discrepancy to refinery problems in Oklahoma, Kansas and the Midwest.

"The current disparity between fuel prices in Oklahoma and Texas is marked by limited supplies attempting to address demand for fuels," he said. "There is just not a lot of excess product available in today's wholesale market."

Suppliers in Oklahoma and other parts of the region are limited in how much fuel they can buy from Texas, Arkansas and other lower-priced areas because of contracts, he said. Most of the terminals in north Texas are dedicated to the Dallas region.

Higher Oklahoma gasoline prices are not expected to affect Labor Day travel, AAA Oklahoma spokesman Chuck Mai said.

[TurismoDreamin]

This is from the Tulsa World (8/31):

SOURCE LINK:http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070830_1__OKLAH76744

Oklahoma gasoline prices exceeded the national average Thursday and were higher than those of surrounding states as the Labor Day holiday weekend approached.

Industry analysts blame the higher prices in the region on a series of refinery outages, a Coffeyville, Kan., refinery that flooded earlier this summer, a large refinery outage in Illinois and the fire at the Wynnewood refinery in late spring.

"Coffeyville is right there in the center of the Midwestern area, so a disruption there causes problems throughout the region," said Bruce Bell, chairman emeritus of the Mid-Continent Oil and Gas Association of Oklahoma. "That's causing us to bring gasoline in from out of state and out of the region much more so than normal."

According to the AAA Daily Fuel Gauge Report, the national average for regular unleaded Thursday was $2.76 per gallon, while the average in Oklahoma City was $2.88. Gas was $2.87 in Tulsa, $2.61 in Dallas, $2.76 in Kansas City, Mo., $2.81 in Albuquerque and $2.61 in Little Rock, Ark.

Prices throughout the Plains and much of the Midwest are far above the national average.

Bell said it is also more difficult to move fuel throughout the country in the summer because the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency requires dozens of specially blended fuels for parts of the nation. The summer blends are required until Sept. 15.

Chris Newton, president of the Texas Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Store Association, also attributed the price discrepancy to refinery problems in Oklahoma, Kansas and the Midwest.

"The current disparity between fuel prices in Oklahoma and Texas is marked by limited supplies attempting to address demand for fuels," he said. "There is just not a lot of excess product available in today's wholesale market."

Suppliers in Oklahoma and other parts of the region are limited in how much fuel they can buy from Texas, Arkansas and other lower-priced areas because of contracts, he said. Most of the terminals in north Texas are dedicated to the Dallas region.

Higher Oklahoma gasoline prices are not expected to affect Labor Day travel, AAA Oklahoma spokesman Chuck Mai said.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear
For the past 20 years, Tulsa trash ratepayers paid more than any major city in our surrounding states.

That is also an unassailable fact.

Again....Untrue.

Dallas trash rates per month $20.41
Little Rock rates per month  $20.99
Oklahoma City rates per month $13.91
Tulsa rates per month $11.37 or $14.53

I am confused by your method of arguing. You just make up lies and expect everyone to believe you.

Does this strategy work on other bears?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear
For the past 20 years, Tulsa trash ratepayers paid more than any major city in our surrounding states.

That is also an unassailable fact.

Again....Untrue.

Dallas trash rates per month $20.41
Little Rock rates per month  $20.99
Oklahoma City rates per month $13.91
Tulsa rates per month $11.37 or $14.53

I am confused by your method of arguing. You just make up lies and expect everyone to believe you.

Does this strategy work on other bears?

The local Lorton's World seems to think that the trash-to-energy plant resulted in HIGHER trash rates for the past 20 years.  

It indicates for instance that until the debt was paid off and the plant shut down, our COMMERCIAL trash rates were DOUBLE that of area cities. DOUBLE certainly seems like a lot more.

P.S. The Lorton's World let's you research their Archives for free, Recycle.  

Here's the link:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070719_1_A8_hBusi87150
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070719_1_A8_hBusi87150
[/url]

Back during Mayor MisFortune's mis-administration, when Ogden-Martin (now Covanta) went Bankrupt, there were BELATEDLY some useful Lorton's Worldarticles concerning the history of the Trash-to-Energy White Elephant, including a comparison of Tulsa's rates to other major cities in our surrounding states.

Their news articles at the time recited a selected city-by-city comparison of Tulsa to major cities in the surrounding states.  That is my "unimpeachable" source.  The Lorton's World.
Also, from a 11/05/06 Lorton's World article:

The cost of waste: Today, the city has the most expensive residential and commercial garbage collection rates in the area.

Most Tulsans pay $14.53 per month for twice-a-week curbside service that does not include supplied containers or the cost of recycling, which carries an additional $2 fee.

Oklahoma City residents pay $13.91 for once-a-week service that includes the use of large, city-supplied containers, as well as curbside recycling.

Rates in area suburbs range from $7.56 per month in Sapulpa to $12.25 per month in Broken Arrow, a recent survey found.

Tulsa is only able to keep its rate at the current level because of a $7 million loan the city took out three years ago to help offset the payments it makes to the plant.

The actual cost for the $14.53 service is $15.94, but city leaders vowed years ago not to boost residential rates again.

Similarly, the commercial rate of $2.58 per cubic yard is roughly double the rate charged in other cities.

For example, a popular convenience store chain has a Tulsa location with a monthly trash bill amounting to $534 and another in Owasso that has a bill of $270 for the exact same service.

The reason for the high rates is because of the high disposal and debt costs at the plant.

Taking trash to the plant costs the city $23.50 per ton for disposal, plus about $24 per ton is paid toward the debt -- amounting to nearly $48 per ton.

Here's the link:
http://http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=061105_Ne_A21_Every35071


And, from a 5/01/05 Lorton's World article:

Fast-forward to 2005. In essence, the cost of incineration since its inception has gone up more than 500 percent. This cost is passed on to local businesses and industries, while Oklahoma continues to have some of the nation's most competitive and most abundant landfill space.

This is an indirect but powerful blow to the local economy. The average restaurant in Tulsa pays two to three times what neighboring cities pay, while apartments pay twice the Southwest average.

[RecycleMichael]

The information in the Tulsa World was for a snapshot in 2005 and was a generalization. Apartment owner Case Management and restaurant management from Charlie's Chicken came to public meetings and said that they were getting a better price on their outside of Tulsa properties.

That was because their hauler, American Waste had just bought and re-opened a landfill just west of town. American Waste did all they could to close the trash-to-energy plant from a competitive standpoint. When the largest hauling companies own the largest landfills, they are able to offer disposal rates that were way below market levels. The rates for select customers in 2005 were cheap. It was not that way for everybody.

Yes, commercial businesses paid more than they should have for trash services in Tulsa for 20 years. They paid slightly more for most of the years, and dramatically more the last couple of years because of the landfill reopening. Remember, one of the biggest landfills in the state, the Quarry landfill owned by Waste Management, also opened after the burn plant opened. When you have landfills opening in the metro area, prices will be adjusted accordingly.

Tulsa was forced to charge accordingly because then Mayor Jim Inhofe bound them to. The elected officials who followed, including six mayors and dozens of city councilors, could do nothing to change the terms.

The trash to energy plant required Tulsa ratepayers to finance 180 million dollars in debt over 20 years. It was a stupid contract that Inhofe agreed to. I protested the deal back then as well.

Most cities in America have seen their disposal facilities close in the last twenty years. Their disposal rates have gone up as their trucks have had to drive further distances . Many of them they have started recycling programs to reduce the amount of refuse they produce.

Tulsa businesses paid more than suburb businesses, but were still way below the national average for trash disposal. Now, with the burn plant out of the equation and two big landfill nearby, Tulsa businesses have among the lowest trash rates in the country.

I think today's low trash disposal rates, among the cheapest in the country, could be also called the "Tulsa Premium".

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

The information in the Tulsa World was for a snapshot in 2005 and was a generalization. Apartment owner Case Management and restaurant management from Charlie's Chicken came to public meetings and said that they were getting a better price on their outside of Tulsa properties.

That was because their hauler, American Waste had just bought and re-opened a landfill just west of town. American Waste did all they could to close the trash-to-energy plant from a competitive standpoint. When the largest hauling companies own the largest landfills, they are able to offer disposal rates that were way below market levels. The rates for select customers in 2005 were cheap. It was not that way for everybody.

Yes, commercial businesses paid more than they should have for trash services in Tulsa for 20 years. They paid slightly more for most of the years, and dramatically more the last couple of years because of the landfill reopening. Remember, one of the biggest landfills in the state, the Quarry landfill owned by Waste Management, also opened after the burn plant opened. When you have landfills opening in the metro area, prices will be adjusted accordingly.

Tulsa was forced to charge accordingly because then Mayor Jim Inhofe bound them to. The elected officials who followed, including six mayors and dozens of city councilors, could do nothing to change the terms.

The trash to energy plant required Tulsa ratepayers to finance 180 million dollars in debt over 20 years. It was a stupid contract that Inhofe agreed to. I protested the deal back then as well.

Most cities in America have seen their disposal facilities close in the last twenty years. Their disposal rates have gone up as their trucks have had to drive further distances . Many of them they have started recycling programs to reduce the amount of refuse they produce.

Tulsa businesses paid more than suburb businesses, but were still way below the national average for trash disposal. Now, with the burn plant out of the equation and two big landfill nearby, Tulsa businesses have among the lowest trash rates in the country.

I think today's low trash disposal rates, among the cheapest in the country, could be also called the "Tulsa Premium".

It's nice to know that the Lorton's World reportedly accurately on our much higher than average Trash Rates due to the 20-year costs of the Trash-to-Energy Folly.  Probably a First for them, as the copywrited Grand Masters of the Half-Truth.

I'm thrilled that Tulsa Residential water/sewer/trash customers got the $1.00 per month reduction in Trash rates.  I hope they save it for the possibility that the Kaiser River Tax passes Oct. 9.  They'll need it then.

A DEFINITE advantage haulage-wise was the Hall Trash-to-Energy plant proximity to an easy- access location.

A definite disadvantage was the increased emissions right smack in the middle of our urban area.

But, being on the West Side of the Arkansas River, the city fathers perceived that it would fit right in with the Sewage Treatment plant, the two Refineries, the Concrete Plant, and the PSO Power plant.  It's only WEST Tulsa, afterall, they pontificated......

P.S. Wonder how many campaign contributions $$'s Ogden-Martin or its officers contributed to Mayor Inhofe as his Send-off to the U.S. House of Representatives??