Reasons for my vote on the river tax

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

Two questions:

2. Would one of the River Tax proponents cite several example cities where development of a physical feature attracted a verifiable increase in 'young professionals'?

I can only give you anecdotes.  There aren't studies out there showing a direct causal link between improved recreational infrastructure and attraction of young professionals, so I can only give you examples I am aware of where certain cities have proved more attractive to young people based on physical features.  The two that immediately come to mind from my expereince are:

Austin--Town Lake
Chicago--Lake Michigan lake front

1. Even if the Arkansas River is developed, it will still pale in comparison to the physical features of those and other cities that are 'cool' places to live. To those on the outside, a fixed up Arkansas River is still a muddy ditch compared to the Lake Michigan waterfront.

2. I don't think physical features in isolation are what attracts young professionals. It is physical features plus a combination of other factors - many of which Tulsa does not have and probably will never have.

Austin is the state capital of the 2nd most populated state; has a major research university; many high-tech corporations headquartered or located there; Barton Springs/hill country/chain of reservoirs on the Colorado river, etc..

Chicago is a large international city. It is home to many corporations; financial center; many private and public universities; a huge arts scene; museums; a Great Lake.  

3. The class of people that can be called young and professional is relatively small compared to the rest of the population, even in cities with a higher percentage of YPs. Why build this with such a small group in mind?

4. Which brings me to my last point. The River Tax should be a project for Tulsans, not prospective Tulsans. It should encompass the entire county and not just one segment. $100M would build the dams and and create the living river. The remaining $188M could be spent on parks and beautification projects for the entire county.

A few examples:

* Someone on another thread mentioned the drab I-244 corridor. It would not take much to plant more trees and bushes, landscape, and beautify a few bridges along that stretch.

* On another thread, The Artist posted an awesome rendition of his idea for a park square in front of Holy Family Cathedral. This would be a great project to include.

* Land in the Tulsa County suburbs is being quickly eaten up with development. Buying a large chunk of land for a future regional park would be a good idea to do now before it is too expensive.

These could be done all around the metro and still have the basic river infrastructure started.

Any county wide sales tax increase needs to be just as much for 21st & Garnet as 21st & Utica.

A muddy ditch eh? What a visionary. Well we could keep giving examples and I bet they would never measure up for you till we plant trees on 244, fix the roads and pretty up the parks. Not going to happen.

Well here's another to shoot down. Trinity River in Ft. Worth. Similar size city, similar river. The nearby university is having to expand, very likely because people want to be on a campus so near the high profile development. I would ask you to find a similar investment in river development in a similar city that failed to bring results.

NOTE: The whole city, in fact the whole region, reaps benefit from development in any quandrant of the city. If we were building it JUST for Tulsans I would agree with you but we aren't and we shouldn't. Shifting money around from one quadrant to another is a loser idea. This brings in regional and out of state money. Do you have any idea why we are celebrating a state centennial in such a big way? It is to bring in $$ from all over the country, not just from our state. If we are attractive to young professionals, students, empty nesters, so much the better. We want these people because they are at the peak buying stage of their lives. They have more disposable income than any other stage of life until retirement. They are buying first cars, first homes, new lawn mowers, baby equipment and on and on. They are the life blood of a community. The rest of us whimper about bad roads, not enough park land, and school systems.[]

[waterboy]

Thanks for the correction about Tarrant Cty. community college. I think you would be naive to think there isn't other land available for the college. They want a downtown presence but they could get that on less expensive land locations than near a river development.[]

Reread your post. You described the river in a perjorative way, a muddy ditch. That perception is yours, not what people from other areas would necessarily say. Beauty is relative and not concrete. I love the unending prairie in Iowa, the flat desert outside of Phoenix and the stark beauty of the Arkansas river on a snowy day in the winter. Others do not. I have friends in Minneapolis who don't see the mighty Mississippi as anything but a mighty headache. When I visited Galveston beach the first time it was a dirty, algae infested, trashy tourist trap. New Orleans was often described the same way.

It is simple. If you like things the way they are here in Tulsa, vote for no change. The roads won't get any better, there won't be any more parks and the trees will be planted by volunteer organizations if at all. No one votes for more taxes for those things. It will come from increased gasoline taxes or an entirely new tax of some kind or no improvements at all. The city is bigger but the budgets have not grown because the tax base keeps moving farther out, while using the same city infrastructure. Your choice.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

Thanks for the correction about Tarrant Cty. community college. I think you would be naive to think there isn't other land available for the college. They want a downtown presence but they could get that on less expensive land locations than near a river development.

But acquiring 38 acres plus an option for 17 more can be a little tough. []

Reread your post. You described the river in a perjorative way, a muddy ditch. That perception is yours, not what people from other areas would necessarily say.

But I am sure most of the young and professional from the outside would describe it that way - after all they are YPs.

It is simple. If you like things the way they are here in Tulsa, vote for no change.

That's kind of an all or nothing attitude - your way is the best and if no one likes it you will take your ball and go home.

Voting no does not necessarily imply one likes the way things are.

Why are you so sure what YP's from out of town would think? You have some data or just expressing your feelings?

What does voting no imply? Oh, yeah, you determined that maybe it was just a bad plan. Perhaps you could share your wisdom about how it could be a good plan rather than just poke holes in 60years worth of planning? Here is what it implies, yet another failed river development plan means that nothing happens and we go back to complaining about stuff with no real plan to change things. The roads won't get fixed, the parks continue to decay and crime rises. It's the money Twizz. The city grew, the finances didn't keep up. Daddy didn't come through with more cash.

I'm sorry if I seem terse, your remarks are less than persuasive. You want more money put into parks, trees on the expressway and stuff for East Tulsa. Well put together a package (don't do it with sales tax though) and go hog wild. Cause nobody else will. Or just swaddle yourself into the vast cynicism of the naysayer crowd. It's quite comfy over there.

You have no examples of failed river development plans in other similar cities and you ignore the impact of an investment of a half billion dollars on the community. You state that most chamber members are not retail which may be true but is irrelevant. You think businessmen are only interested in sales tax ramifications? You think that if it had such a dramatic negative effect as Councilor Eagleton has stated that they wouldn't jump to oppose it? Of course they would. But they haven't. All of those members will be impacted by the growth of the community whether they pay sales taxes or not. You have yet to disprove my assertion that as a whole the business community is supportive of any plan to get this city moving forward. Especially if $120 million comes in as a donation.

BTW, I don't do point by point. Its usually unproductive and merely reflects an attitude of "yes it does! No it doesn't!" types of repartee. Not interested.

[waterboy]

Works for you too. Though I would also recommend a good Shiraz.

What shakes me up are unfounded, unproved, and indefensible remarks made as though they are proven fact. People make decisions off of those remarks. if I can't prove or substantiate my remarks I retract them or adjust them. Bumper sticker phrases help no one.

[shadows]

Originally posted by waterboy

Congratulations on finding Wikipedia. Its not always correct. The banks of the Arkansas have not been cemented. In fact there is very little hardening of the banks along the entire 42 miles of river. If you are referring to the levees, they are made of compacted sand occassionally hardened with rip rap.

I never said you knew nothing of the river. But you are definitely stretching with these remarks. If we are in such danger, then we should consider building a second Keystone Dam at Chandler park.
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Didn't have to look it up because I been there and saw it.  Try reading the post before criticizing.

It still is natures open sewer and there is no way to clean or control the water.    

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

Originally posted by waterboy

Congratulations on finding Wikipedia. Its not always correct. The banks of the Arkansas have not been cemented. In fact there is very little hardening of the banks along the entire 42 miles of river. If you are referring to the levees, they are made of compacted sand occassionally hardened with rip rap.

I never said you knew nothing of the river. But you are definitely stretching with these remarks. If we are in such danger, then we should consider building a second Keystone Dam at Chandler park.
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Didn't have to look it up because I been there and saw it.  Try reading the post before criticizing.

It still is natures open sewer and there is no way to clean or control the water.    

You are wrong on all counts. I read the post, thats why I responded. I stand by my response. Just because you see things, doesn't mean you understand what you see. BTW, what is the main pollutant in the river, Shadow, and where does it come from?

We manage and control nature every day. Sometimes we forget to respect nature's power and pay a price but that doesn't mean you just give up.