Reasons for my vote on the river tax

[Bledsoe]

I will be voting yes.  I especially agree with swake and Waterboy.  

I too am frustrated with the rush job, no car bridge at 41st, regressive taxes and the city/county thing.  But here is the essence of my reason for supporting this plan.

The river has been at the heart of what Tulsa has been, what it is, and I believe, what it will become.  Depending on who was talking, it has been cussed and discussed for more than two centuries of human habitation in this part of the Valley of the Arkansas.  Now, the first truly viable plan to restore and develop the Arkansas River in Tulsa County is on the verge of realization.

There are many sincere people who have told me they oppose this plan.  Most have said they want something done about the river.  Indeed, many have said that if something is not done to improve the river, the City of Tulsa and even all of Tulsa County will stagnate.  Yet many quibble about the current proposal.

Their concerns and questions have some validity.  If you want a reason to oppose this modest time-limited tax you can find one, but none, in my opinion, are reason enough not to support what most consider an excellent proposal.  

The official Tulsa County Republican platform is "No River Tax."  Indeed, the perpetual GOP mantra seems to be no new tax, no how, no why, no kind, nada, never, ever!  I think most Democrats disagree with this sentiment as do many Republicans.  Remember, Oklahoma has the lowest overall tax burden of any other state.  See:  http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/475.html.

Others, while admitting that the river proposal is generally thoughtful, suggest that government should not do what private developers will.  They argue that if a development is economically sound then the free market should develop the river.  I honestly do not think private development will build the vital core infrastructure of the plan, such as the low water dams, canalization, remediation of habitat, bundling of property for private development or the revitalization and expansion of public park land.  However, I do think that when the public improvements are made, private development will come.

I don't want to delay for years river revitalization and potentially jeopardize millions of dollars of private donations.  I want my grandchildren to see and enjoy a revitalized river right here in "River City."  I want them to participate with me in the development of what will be the equivalent of New York City's Central Park, a "people's park" for which all citizens of Tulsa County can be proud.

There is a valid role for government in the establishment of core public facilities.  The planned development of the river through five cities can only be primed by government.  My belief is that this proposal by Tulsa County is probably the only way, in our present structure, that we can get all to the table and make this happen NOW!

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Randi Miller, et al, will be long gone when this thing comes to fruition.  

Says who? Further, if she is 'gone,' cannot hold her accountable now, can we?

Says my crystal ball.  No, seriously, she's got to be one of the least popular public figures in the county right now.  I am suggesting that she'll be out of power before any silt is dredged.

And once she's gone, don't worry--I'm sure you'll make up someone else to blame for something else you pull out of thin air.  Isn't that how muckraking works?

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd
And once she's gone, don't worry--I'm sure you'll make up someone else to blame for something else you pull out of thin air.  Isn't that how muckraking works?

I did not bring up Randi in this, you did. I did not skewer her, KOTV and KFAQ have.  If she is so awful, then how can we trust that she has done a proper job handling the matter?

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

quote:Originally posted by Floyd
And once she's gone, don't worry--I'm sure you'll make up someone else to blame for something else you pull out of thin air.  Isn't that how muckraking works?

I did not bring up Randi in this, you did. I did not skewer her, KOTV and KFAQ have.  If she is so awful, then how can we trust that she has done a proper job handling the matter?

My point is that the unpopularity of this particular County Commissioner is no reason to vote against improvements to the river.  

My apologies for the swipe at your website.  Carry on.

[TeeDub]

I heard the same rhetoric used to push 2025.

"If we don't pass this, Tulsa will be left behind"

What did that get us other than higher taxes and broken promises?    Oh yeah, an arena that will have to have at least 150 events booked per year to break even.*

* http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070502_1_A1_spanc66636

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub


I heard the same rhetoric used to push 2025.

"If we don't pass this, Tulsa will be left behind"

What did that get us other than higher taxes and broken promises?    Oh yeah, an arena that will have to have at least 150 events booked per year to break even.*

* http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070502_1_A1_spanc66636

Okay, I'm a fellow V-2025 skeptic, but other than the LWD's and Zink Lake improvements, they've been delivering on what was promised as far as projects.  I think they were somewhat vague as to how American Airlines was going to use their money, but county-wide projects are being completed.  

Still doesn't change my standing views on the new tax though.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Bledsoe

 

I too am frustrated with the rush job, no car bridge at 41st, regressive taxes and the city/county thing.  

                                               If you have to plead the case for the river tax by first admitting the numerous flaws in this package, it's a pretty good indication that there aren't really any compelling reasons for it, hence the now or never emotional appeals(i.e. think of the children, do it for the kids, etc.) that don't hold water. That's great advice though, when I go to the polls to cast a ballot I will be thinking of them and all the flaws you mention as I cast my no vote so that they will not have to be saddled with this poorly conceived tax package of, by, and for private special interests.

[waterboy]

So it has to be perfect before it meets your exacting standards? Even juries are directed to rule on the preponderance of evidence. Some issues are more important than others. I remember when my firstborn was being checked out and the nurse told me he had an apgar score of 8 and I asked what that meant. Apparently they judge criteria like skin tone, body temp, activity, breathing and heartbeat with each one worth about the same value. You could score an 8 and not be breathing. But I digress.

I'm calling you out dude. What special interests, how is it only for them and how do you know? No bs. Answer all three with documented fact or stop saying this stuff.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

So it has to be perfect before it meets your exacting standards? Even juries are directed to rule on the preponderance of evidence. Some issues are more important than others. I remember when my firstborn was being checked out and the nurse told me he had an apgar score of 8 and I asked what that meant. Apparently they judge criteria like skin tone, body temp, activity, breathing and heartbeat with each one worth about the same value. You could score an 8 and not be breathing. But I digress.

I'm calling you out dude. What special interests, how is it only for them and how do you know? No bs. Answer all three with documented fact or stop saying this stuff.

                                               I'd settle for satisfactory. No matter how you score this tax it will be stillborn due to the abusive pregnancy of it's crack addicted mothers. What PSIs? How about these:                            private special interests

[RecycleMichael]

How about trying to answer waterboy's question about how is this project is just for them?

The link you added just listed a bunch of charities and Tulsa businesses. You expect them to not care about making civic improvements?

How much do you contribute to making Tulsa a better community?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

So it has to be perfect before it meets your exacting standards? Even juries are directed to rule on the preponderance of evidence. Some issues are more important than others. I remember when my firstborn was being checked out and the nurse told me he had an apgar score of 8 and I asked what that meant. Apparently they judge criteria like skin tone, body temp, activity, breathing and heartbeat with each one worth about the same value. You could score an 8 and not be breathing. But I digress.

I'm calling you out dude. What special interests, how is it only for them and how do you know? No bs. Answer all three with documented fact or stop saying this stuff.

                                               I'd settle for satisfactory. No matter how you score this tax it will be stillborn due to the abusive pregnancy of it's crack addicted mothers. What PSIs? How about these:                            private special interests

That's no answer, just more bs. Perhaps you could tell me how Hilcrest Hospital is a private special interest, how the development will benefit them as opposed to other hospitals or the rest of us and how you know that.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

How about trying to answer waterboy's question about how is this project is just for them?

The link you added just listed a bunch of charities and Tulsa businesses. You expect them to not care about making civic improvements?

How much do you contribute to making Tulsa a better community?

One person's charity is another person's tax shelter, otherwise known as a private non-profit foundations. Call me old fashioned, but I was brought up to believe that charitable giving shouldn't be done with strings attached in the name of ego-stroking cronyism. Since you seem to worship at that altar, I know it might be hard for you to understand why I prefer not to discuss which charities I support because I feel it is in poor taste to brag about that sort of thing.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

How about trying to answer waterboy's question about how is this project is just for them?

The link you added just listed a bunch of charities and Tulsa businesses. You expect them to not care about making civic improvements?

How much do you contribute to making Tulsa a better community?

One person's charity is another person's tax shelter, otherwise known as a private non-profit foundations. Call me old fashioned, but I was brought up to believe that charitable giving shouldn't be done with strings attached in the name of ego-stroking cronyism. Since you seem to worship at that altar, I know it might be hard for you to understand why I prefer not to discuss which charities I support because I feel it is in poor taste to brag about that sort of thing.

I'm sure he's a blowhard

He gives zero money or time to anything charitable

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

How about trying to answer waterboy's question about how is this project is just for them?

The link you added just listed a bunch of charities and Tulsa businesses. You expect them to not care about making civic improvements?

How much do you contribute to making Tulsa a better community?

One person's charity is another person's tax shelter, otherwise known as a private non-profit foundations. Call me old fashioned, but I was brought up to believe that charitable giving shouldn't be done with strings attached in the name of ego-stroking cronyism. Since you seem to worship at that altar, I know it might be hard for you to understand why I prefer not to discuss which charities I support because I feel it is in poor taste to brag about that sort of thing.

I'm sure he's a blowhard

He gives zero money or time to anything charitable

                                           

If there ever was an experienced authority on blowing hard, you're it.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

I am voting no. I won't detail my specific reasons as I would just be mostly paraphrasing what some others have already posted.

Plus, it is pretty obvious this will be voted down (based on the Tulsa World/KOTV poll and common sense). It has the feel of the failed new central library vote from a couple of years ago - the right idea done in the wrong way. That one even had a philanthropic 'donation' thrown in, too.

The following is one of the main reasons I think this will fail – and it has nothing to do with being anti-tax.

I supported V2025. I also would have supported V2025 if it had been a City of Tulsa only vote. That V2025 was not a city only vote is where, I believe, the current problems with the process started. Let me explain.

After the series of failed attempts by the City of Tulsa to build an arena + other projects, the city was gun shy to go it alone again. So V2025 was hatched as a county project. And with it passing, the county became the default leader in big projects.

The problem is that the passing of V2025 had little to do with the county handling it and more to do with the citizens being ready for it (i.e. after 9/11, numerous job losses, and seeing the MAPS project results in OKC). The City of Tulsa residents - over 70% of Tulsa County's population - voted positively for all four V2025 propositions. The county claiming they 'got it done' when the city couldn't reminds me of someone playing the same slot machine all day while losing all their money; immediately after leaving their machine someone else who just found a quarter on the floor puts it in that same machine and hits the jackpot. Frequently such a winner mistakes lucky timing for something more, and thinks more highly of themselves than they ought.

I find it interesting that examples are given by the 'yes' vote people of successes by other cities - the success of cities, not counties. The much talked about Oklahoma City MAPS projects are city projects.

The difference? City projects generally fall under the responsibility of the mayor and city council - a good system of checks and balances. In other words, direct accountability. The three Tulsa County commissioners have virtually no checks and balances and neither would the authority the river vote creates.

When this vote fails, I think it will bring back some balance to local politics. Just don't blame it's failing on anti-tax sentiment – blame it on people wanting accountability and a voice in the process.

Ultimately I am for positive things for all Tulsa County, but I also believe that 'good fences make good neighbors'. Competition among the various metro cities will produce greater overall results than doing all big things metro-wide. The river can be done, and done better, as individual cities. Having the benefit of competing ideas and resources will do that.

I understand your argument. What would be the solution to the circular causation you describe? If:
*the City can't pass such a project on its own,
*it would pass if it were county wide but the accountability and checks and balances are suspect
*each city should duke it out for their own plans which means the sum of the parts will not be as effective as a single program.

Then there will never be effective core development of this asset. It would be a fragmented, disjointed effort at best. The county is the only existing framework to do the heavy core development imo.

I don't think the OKC project is analagous to ours. The make up of the city is different and the Oklahoma River and Bricktown did not go through those other cities. And OKC had the Murrah tragedy as a spring board. Nonetheless they all agreed to co-operate with MAPS under pressure from the mayor.