Vote Yes Commercials

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by swake


And it's not just Tulsa, it's every city in the state. But, big cities with urban issues have higher costs to run, so Tulsa and Oklahoma City are hurt worse. Oklahoma City actually collects less money on a per penny, per capita basis than Tulsa. of course they have even fewer cops per capita than we do that make even less and they have no public pools, a weaker parks system and even worse rated roads.

OMG  "No public pools???"   WHERE do you come up with the BS you post?  What a joke.  Didn't that seem just a bit unlikely, even to you?  It takes about 30 seconds to go to OKC's city website and find that is of course not true.  Makes it more than a little difficult to put much faith in your other claims. . .

Oh good lord, yes, I checked and you are correct, for now. I had read that Oklahoma City was going to transition to Splash Pads in favor of pools as a cost saving measure. It may well be that has not been completed yet or the plan may have changed, I can't find the article any longer.

My point was hardly to bash your beloved city, it is simply to point out that the budgetary problems that Tulsa is facing are ones created by the funding structure for cities in this state.

I have done some more checking and I was wrong on another count. Cities (and counties) can pass additional sales tax above the 2 cents for public safety and just recently can for educational infrastructure.

[Tiny]

I think the repair on Keystone dam was done in 2002 and 2003 ... the tainter gates (the ones at the top of the dam) was being refurbished and painted and was completed by the time I quit fishing there regularly and that was in 2004. They were also generating during that time ... in 2006 it was due to drought conditions that caused the low flows. The lake was really low and only a few boat ramps were usable. I'm a catfish guide on keystone so I remember how low it was. They had to dig out cowskin bay so that boats could launch there. Normal level is 723 ft above sea level and it got down to something like 714 ft asl at one point so they quit generating completely and brought it back up to about 719.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Why would it matter if the children actors in the movie were from prominent Tulsa families or not?

They are actors in a television spot.

Please tone down the rhetoric...there is no need to use phrases like "served up their own children".

Actors...cute kids...not threat to you...

EXPLOITING Children for craven financial GAIN??

Isn't there a LAW against that?

Phoning the DHS Child Abuse Hotline immediately!!

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

       

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally at the closed Albertson's Grocery Store on North Peoria was as different from the Kaiser River Tax serial TV and print ads as bermuda grass is different from Astro-Turf.

Difference:  AUTHENTICITY.

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally included the REAL children of Tulsa's REAL families:  

Oppressed and Exploited middle-class families whose budgets are being ripped apart by sky-high Un-controlled gasoline prices, increasing food costs, among other escalating expenditures.

Stick a fork in Kaiser's River Tax:  It's DONE.

[]

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

       

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally at the closed Albertson's Grocery Store on North Peoria was as different from the Kaiser River Tax serial TV and print ads as bermuda grass is different from Astro-Turf.

Difference:  AUTHENTICITY.

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally included the REAL children of Tulsa's REAL families:  

Oppressed and Exploited middle-class families whose budgets are being ripped apart by sky-high Un-controlled gasoline prices, increasing food costs, among other escalating expenditures.

Stick a fork in Kaiser's River Tax:  It's DONE.

[]

Weren't they also protesting the sheriff and lack of funding for TPS?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Tiny

Waterboy Quote -  

quote: Two things tipped me off that you're not genuine. One is your constant reference to the river and the impounds as sewer water and sewer smell. Yet you fish in that water? No one who spends any amount of time up and down the river or any fluctuating lake would talk bs like that. I got news fella, lots of people run, walk, play, eat and drink around that lake you think is so smelly. And we don't smell any sewer. Maybe its the smell of your own selfish interest that is masking your true motives here. If you really believe its so bad why would you have anything at all to do with the area?

The Tulsa World ran the article and information from Brent Gordon and others that varified what I said in that post you replied to with the quote above. You think I"m not an authority on release of water but I think I may be more in tune to it than you realize since I've studied these release flows for a very long time. I've been down there sometimes 150 days a year and seen first hand how much water actually comes out of the dam. The article that ran in the Tulsa World today confirmed what I said about the river flow and sewage problems you'd have with the dammed river. The sewage problem I was referring to was the stinch that comes from the river when you drive over the 71st street bridge ... as I'm thinking right now the dam at Jenks is going to be below that area and that's the one that's going to be stinking the place up. Zink dam isn't the one I was talking about. It was also confirmed that Zink dam took it's toll on the fish population down river as well but what remained was the striper spawning area just below Zink ... once that dam is put up down river that's probably gone as well because they're designing the dams so that the fish can get through there which is even worse as they will go through and then their eggs are going to die as a result as confirmed by Kurk Kuklinski ( I may have spelled his name wrong ) Fisheries Biologist for the Oklahoma Dept of Wildlife. This is a quote from Kurk posted a few days ago.

quote:
A lot of good it will do to open the gates and let fish pass to spawn. Guess what happens to the striper eggs after they are spawned and fertilized? They will flow downstream (like they need to do) until they reach the impounded water of the first dam, where they will immediately settle into the silt and debris of the substrate because there is not enough moving water to keep them floating. So the dams will provide fish passage for spawning, but the net result is just as if the fish never spawned...dead striper eggs don't turn into striper fry and fingerlings.

You think I'm not for real, well I can assure you that I am and more in tune to this issue than you'd ever realize. What I am is a fisherman and that's it ... damming the rivers won't effect me one bit as I don't go down river near far enough to be effected in any way except maybe when it comes to hybrid fishing ... I do like to do that and when the ODWC loses it's source for hybrid eggs then that does effect me just a little bit ... I don't fish for hybrids but maybe once or twice a year though so that, I can live without. I also don't fish for any of the species that they trade those hybrid for but what I do is try to help the ODWC when and where I can .. when they have a project that I can help with then I'm there. I helped them with a show to promote catch n release of the larger bluecat last year with Fisheries Biologist Jeff Boxrucker and others that were there was Paul Moore, Dan Miller, Brent Gordon and a guy they called Stimey or something like that. I also stay in touch with a few ODWC fisheries biologists on occasion and they've informed me about the bad outcome these dams are going to have. If they do go up then enjoy your sewer pond all you want but there's likely going to be a few months out of several years in the future that no one's going to be wanting to be around that one below zink dam. Low flow will make it so. nuff sed!

Like most folks, you stake out a position then only read and quote what fits that position, totally ignoring any factual disagreements. You misled in your original quotes and you refuse to give the Corps credibility, but choose to believe one federal biologist.

Hundreds of people have researched, studied and taken input from many different sources, not just fishermen, and conclude this plan can work. But one federal biologist and a fisherman disagree.

If you knew anything about me you would know that I really don't want any changes to this river other than eliminating the Zink dam, clearing out past pollution sources and debris from the river. I am a believer that we have changed the nature of the river so much as to have offended nature. We should have worked with the river, not against it. Channelizing, wing dams, connecting canals to creeks all would have been better than what we did the last hundred years. I happen to like sandy rivers and their behaviors.

I made most of the arguments you are espousing for the last 5 years to anyone who would listen. Few agree me. We must realize that there are strong economic forces at work; that the majority of Tulsans want a different type of river with more sophisticated development and that we will lose the battle to keep it natural. If that is true then making adjustments to planning for development is the best route. The living river is a good effort to educate the public about the river. The lakes will provide economic benefit.

Your plan seems to be to take your football and go home if no one wants to play by your rules.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

       

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally at the closed Albertson's Grocery Store on North Peoria was as different from the Kaiser River Tax serial TV and print ads as bermuda grass is different from Astro-Turf.

Difference:  AUTHENTICITY.

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally included the REAL children of Tulsa's REAL families:  

Oppressed and Exploited middle-class families whose budgets are being ripped apart by sky-high Un-controlled gasoline prices, increasing food costs, among other escalating expenditures.

Stick a fork in Kaiser's River Tax:  It's DONE.

[]

Weren't they also protesting the sheriff and lack of funding for TPS?

I saw only the news reports of the Rally.  I did not actually attend.

The print and TV news coverage seems to focus on NO RIVER TAX because the north side residents saw NOTHING in it for them, as interviews with their leadership Jack Henderson and Roscoe Turner indicated.

The rally was also a protest against the re-cycling of Police Chief Ron PALMER as the new At-Will Tulsa Police Chief.

The rally picked the closed Albertson's grocery store as emblematic of the economic problems chronically facing north Tulsa.  

North Tulsa does not have river problems.  They have a basic problem of where to buy groceries for their families, without driving to Owasso to shop for necessities.

[:O]

[sgrizzle]

I think claiming it's a north Tulsa issue is short-sighted. West Tulsa and downtown have no grocery stores and East Tulsa is pretty sparse too. North Tulsa residents can go to 15th and Lewis Reasors or Admiral and Memorial Wal-Mart and be a lot closer than Owasso.

Either way, the county river tax isn't taken their groceries or changing their police chief. Plus, I went to that Pine&Peoria Albertson's many times and it didn't look like anyone was shopping there anyway.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

       

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally at the closed Albertson's Grocery Store on North Peoria was as different from the Kaiser River Tax serial TV and print ads as bermuda grass is different from Astro-Turf.

Difference:  AUTHENTICITY.

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally included the REAL children of Tulsa's REAL families:  

Oppressed and Exploited middle-class families whose budgets are being ripped apart by sky-high Un-controlled gasoline prices, increasing food costs, among other escalating expenditures.

Stick a fork in Kaiser's River Tax:  It's DONE.

[]

Weren't they also protesting the sheriff and lack of funding for TPS?

I saw only the news reports of the Rally.  I did not actually attend.

The print and TV news coverage seems to focus on NO RIVER TAX because the north side residents saw NOTHING in it for them, as interviews with their leadership Jack Henderson and Roscoe Turner indicated.

The rally was also a protest against the re-cycling of Police Chief Ron PALMER as the new At-Will Tulsa Police Chief.

The rally picked the closed Albertson's grocery store as emblematic of the economic problems chronically facing north Tulsa.  

North Tulsa does not have river problems.  They have a basic problem of where to buy groceries for their families, without driving to Owasso to shop for necessities.

[:O]

Owasso?
Bear, while I do think the store needs to be reopened for the good of the area it's obvious that you don't go to the north side, even for the children.

Roscoe is being more than a little disingenuous when he says there are no grocery stores on the north side:

Save a Lot at Pine and Lewis
Warehouse Market at Admiral and Lewis
Perry's at 10th and Lewis
Piggly Wiggly at Admiral and Harvard
Las Americas Admiral and Lewis
Warehouse Market at 56th St N and Peoria

Alberton's has led a revitalization of the near north side that is amazing to see. From Morton, to the new Peoria Ave, to the homes and the new smaller stores in the area, North Peoria is a success story. When I was in high school (a long time ago now) north Peoria was awful, burned out houses and almost no businesses. Despite what Roscoe says, the city has devoted a lot of resources to the area and it shows. A new store needs to be found for that location, and the mayor is working on that, but Roscoe don't really care about the people, he cares about political points, that's the reason for his "protest".

Did you know that Chief Palmer won a settlement against Henderson for slander when he was the head of the local NAACP? Do you think that could also be a real reason for the protest?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

       

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally at the closed Albertson's Grocery Store on North Peoria was as different from the Kaiser River Tax serial TV and print ads as bermuda grass is different from Astro-Turf.

Difference:  AUTHENTICITY.

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally included the REAL children of Tulsa's REAL families:  

Oppressed and Exploited middle-class families whose budgets are being ripped apart by sky-high Un-controlled gasoline prices, increasing food costs, among other escalating expenditures.

Stick a fork in Kaiser's River Tax:  It's DONE.

[]

Weren't they also protesting the sheriff and lack of funding for TPS?

I saw only the news reports of the Rally.  I did not actually attend.

The print and TV news coverage seems to focus on NO RIVER TAX because the north side residents saw NOTHING in it for them, as interviews with their leadership Jack Henderson and Roscoe Turner indicated.

The rally was also a protest against the re-cycling of Police Chief Ron PALMER as the new At-Will Tulsa Police Chief.

The rally picked the closed Albertson's grocery store as emblematic of the economic problems chronically facing north Tulsa.  

North Tulsa does not have river problems.  They have a basic problem of where to buy groceries for their families, without driving to Owasso to shop for necessities.

[:O]

Owasso?
Bear, while I do think the store needs to be reopened for the good of the area it's obvious that you don't go to the north side, even for the children.

Roscoe is being more than a little disingenuous when he says there are no grocery stores on the north side:

Save a Lot at Pine and Lewis
Warehouse Market at Admiral and Lewis
Perry's at 10th and Lewis
Piggly Wiggly at Admiral and Harvard
Las Americas Admiral and Lewis
Warehouse Market at 56th St N and Peoria

Alberton's has led a revitalization of the near north side that is amazing to see. From Morton, to the new Peoria Ave, to the homes and the new smaller stores in the area, North Peoria is a success story. When I was in high school (a long time ago now) north Peoria was awful, burned out houses and almost no businesses. Despite what Roscoe says, the city has devoted a lot of resources to the area and it shows. A new store needs to be found for that location, and the mayor is working on that, but Roscoe don't really care about the people, he cares about political points, that's the reason for his "protest".

Did you know that Chief Palmer won a settlement against Henderson for slander when he was the head of the local NAACP? Do you think that could also be a real reason for the protest?

I rarely go north of Utica Square.  

sniff, sniff.

I was surprised to see there was actually life north of 21st Street.  

sniff, sniff

At every Warehouse Market when I walked in the door, smelled like something dead for a long-time hadn't been cleaned up.

sniff, sniff

I'm still waiting for Northland to re-open.......

sniff, sniff

I think the Albertson's was picked for Symbolism.

Kind of like bone-dry EMPTY city public pools while Vision 2025 was being promoted by Billy-Bob MisFortune.

And, REALITY check:  

About HALF our public pools were still closed this year.  No funding.  No summer jobs for life guards and rec center temps.  

Not a funding priority.

Instead, burn-up the operating budget on allowing TPD police cars to commute to Mannford , Broken Arrow, Sapulpa, Owasso, Jenks, and Bixby instead of giving children all over Tulsa a forum for recreation.

It will only get worse when the Arena opens next year, and is vacant most of the year, except when they GIVE the house away to act like someone's interested in coming to Tulsa.

The arena will just create another huge hole in the city operating budget.

Oh, and like the new City Hall Borg Cube won't be money pit, too?  OVER-Paying $52 million for a nearly vacant building with $76 million in financing means there's 40% juicy legal graft built into this monumental bad deal for the citizens.

Good deal for Leucadia, the bond underwriters, a small coven of attorneys, Staubach company, and .

A new city hall with TRANFORM OUR SOUL, per Chatty Kathy??

But our city so-called leaders priority is to pass a NEW TAX to move sand around in the Arkansas River.......

How sick things have become.

But, It's for the CHILDREN.

That's Okay?

[!]

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

       

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally at the closed Albertson's Grocery Store on North Peoria was as different from the Kaiser River Tax serial TV and print ads as bermuda grass is different from Astro-Turf.

Difference:  AUTHENTICITY.

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally included the REAL children of Tulsa's REAL families:  

Oppressed and Exploited middle-class families whose budgets are being ripped apart by sky-high Un-controlled gasoline prices, increasing food costs, among other escalating expenditures.

Stick a fork in Kaiser's River Tax:  It's DONE.

[]

Weren't they also protesting the sheriff and lack of funding for TPS?

I saw only the news reports of the Rally.  I did not actually attend.

The print and TV news coverage seems to focus on NO RIVER TAX because the north side residents saw NOTHING in it for them, as interviews with their leadership Jack Henderson and Roscoe Turner indicated.

The rally was also a protest against the re-cycling of Police Chief Ron PALMER as the new At-Will Tulsa Police Chief.

The rally picked the closed Albertson's grocery store as emblematic of the economic problems chronically facing north Tulsa.  

North Tulsa does not have river problems.  They have a basic problem of where to buy groceries for their families, without driving to Owasso to shop for necessities.

[:O]

Owasso?
Bear, while I do think the store needs to be reopened for the good of the area it's obvious that you don't go to the north side, even for the children.

Roscoe is being more than a little disingenuous when he says there are no grocery stores on the north side:

Save a Lot at Pine and Lewis
Warehouse Market at Admiral and Lewis
Perry's at 10th and Lewis
Piggly Wiggly at Admiral and Harvard
Las Americas Admiral and Lewis
Warehouse Market at 56th St N and Peoria

Alberton's has led a revitalization of the near north side that is amazing to see. From Morton, to the new Peoria Ave, to the homes and the new smaller stores in the area, North Peoria is a success story. When I was in high school (a long time ago now) north Peoria was awful, burned out houses and almost no businesses. Despite what Roscoe says, the city has devoted a lot of resources to the area and it shows. A new store needs to be found for that location, and the mayor is working on that, but Roscoe don't really care about the people, he cares about political points, that's the reason for his "protest".

Did you know that Chief Palmer won a settlement against Henderson for slander when he was the head of the local NAACP? Do you think that could also be a real reason for the protest?

I rarely go north of Utica Square.  

sniff, sniff.

I was surprised to see there was actually life north of 21st Street.  

sniff, sniff

At every Warehouse Market when I walked in the door, smelled like something dead for a long-time hadn't been cleaned up.

sniff, sniff

I'm still waiting for Northland to re-open.......

sniff, sniff

I think the Albertson's was picked for Symbolism.

Kind of like bone-dry EMPTY city public pools while Vision 2025 was being promoted by Billy-Bob MisFortune.

And, REALITY check:  

About HALF our public pools were still closed this year.  No funding.  No summer jobs for life guards and rec center temps.  

Not a funding priority.

Instead, burn-up the operating budget on allowing TPD police cars to commute to Mannford , Broken Arrow, Sapulpa, Owasso, Jenks, and Bixby instead of giving children all over Tulsa a forum for recreation.

It will only get worse when the Arena opens next year, and is vacant most of the year, except when they GIVE the house away to act like someone's interested in coming to Tulsa.

The arena will just create another huge hole in the city operating budget.

Oh, and like the new City Hall Borg Cube won't be money pit, too?  OVER-Paying $52 million for a nearly vacant building with $76 million in financing means there's 40% juicy legal graft built into this monumental bad deal for the citizens.

Good deal for Leucadia, the bond underwriters, a small coven of attorneys, Staubach company, and .

A new city hall with TRANFORM OUR SOUL, per Chatty Kathy??

But our city so-called leaders priority is to pass a NEW TAX to move sand around in the Arkansas River.......

How sick things have become.

But, It's for the CHILDREN.

That's Okay?

[!]

How can you stand to live here?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

       

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally at the closed Albertson's Grocery Store on North Peoria was as different from the Kaiser River Tax serial TV and print ads as bermuda grass is different from Astro-Turf.

Difference:  AUTHENTICITY.

Sunday's NO RIVER TAX rally included the REAL children of Tulsa's REAL families:  

Oppressed and Exploited middle-class families whose budgets are being ripped apart by sky-high Un-controlled gasoline prices, increasing food costs, among other escalating expenditures.

Stick a fork in Kaiser's River Tax:  It's DONE.

[]

Weren't they also protesting the sheriff and lack of funding for TPS?

I saw only the news reports of the Rally.  I did not actually attend.

The print and TV news coverage seems to focus on NO RIVER TAX because the north side residents saw NOTHING in it for them, as interviews with their leadership Jack Henderson and Roscoe Turner indicated.

The rally was also a protest against the re-cycling of Police Chief Ron PALMER as the new At-Will Tulsa Police Chief.

The rally picked the closed Albertson's grocery store as emblematic of the economic problems chronically facing north Tulsa.  

North Tulsa does not have river problems.  They have a basic problem of where to buy groceries for their families, without driving to Owasso to shop for necessities.

[:O]

Owasso?
Bear, while I do think the store needs to be reopened for the good of the area it's obvious that you don't go to the north side, even for the children.

Roscoe is being more than a little disingenuous when he says there are no grocery stores on the north side:

Save a Lot at Pine and Lewis
Warehouse Market at Admiral and Lewis
Perry's at 10th and Lewis
Piggly Wiggly at Admiral and Harvard
Las Americas Admiral and Lewis
Warehouse Market at 56th St N and Peoria

Alberton's has led a revitalization of the near north side that is amazing to see. From Morton, to the new Peoria Ave, to the homes and the new smaller stores in the area, North Peoria is a success story. When I was in high school (a long time ago now) north Peoria was awful, burned out houses and almost no businesses. Despite what Roscoe says, the city has devoted a lot of resources to the area and it shows. A new store needs to be found for that location, and the mayor is working on that, but Roscoe don't really care about the people, he cares about political points, that's the reason for his "protest".

Did you know that Chief Palmer won a settlement against Henderson for slander when he was the head of the local NAACP? Do you think that could also be a real reason for the protest?

I rarely go north of Utica Square.  

sniff, sniff.

I was surprised to see there was actually life north of 21st Street.  

sniff, sniff

At every Warehouse Market when I walked in the door, smelled like something dead for a long-time hadn't been cleaned up.

sniff, sniff

I'm still waiting for Northland to re-open.......

sniff, sniff

I think the Albertson's was picked for Symbolism.

Kind of like bone-dry EMPTY city public pools while Vision 2025 was being promoted by Billy-Bob MisFortune.

And, REALITY check:  

About HALF our public pools were still closed this year.  No funding.  No summer jobs for life guards and rec center temps.  

Not a funding priority.

Instead, burn-up the operating budget on allowing TPD police cars to commute to Mannford , Broken Arrow, Sapulpa, Owasso, Jenks, and Bixby instead of giving children all over Tulsa a forum for recreation.

It will only get worse when the Arena opens next year, and is vacant most of the year, except when they GIVE the house away to act like someone's interested in coming to Tulsa.

The arena will just create another huge hole in the city operating budget.

Oh, and like the new City Hall Borg Cube won't be money pit, too?  OVER-Paying $52 million for a nearly vacant building with $76 million in financing means there's 40% juicy legal graft built into this monumental bad deal for the citizens.

Good deal for Leucadia, the bond underwriters, a small coven of attorneys, Staubach company, and .

A new city hall with TRANFORM OUR SOUL, per Chatty Kathy??

But our city so-called leaders priority is to pass a NEW TAX to move sand around in the Arkansas River.......

How sick things have become.

But, It's for the CHILDREN.

That's Okay?

[!]

How can you stand to live here?

The reason I stay is simple:

IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN.

I'm fighting for their future.  

Trying with all my muscle, sinew, heart and mind to keep the TAX VAMPIRES off of our bloody necks.

[B)]

[Tiny]

Waterboy, the only reason you don't hear from more biologists on this is because of the media's big push to get the yes vote out there and they don't want to hear from the people that say it's a bad idea. channelization would be a great idea I think ... but if they widen this channel to the river banks to create a more massive hole there than what the water flows can support then it'd be the same as damming the river ... if they could implement some kind of channel that would create enough flow to keep the water moving then that'd be great but it'd be a much smaller channel than bank to bank like they're wanting if they built it according to the minimum flows. Like gordon or stubbs said ... if the flow gets down enough to where the fish die then it's not going to matter about the average flow of any levels they've done on their mock-up. the fish will be just as dead. I've stated for years that they need to get rid of Zink dam also ... for as long as I've been fishing down there on an almost daily basis from 1993 to about 1990 but tulsa wants it's playground and everyone else can just lump it ... it don't matter what damage they're going to do to Oklahoma. There's lots more people in Oklahoma that say that this is a bad deal than just brent gordon and kevin stubbs and from the sound of it it seems like there's been two major environmental agencies that's tried to block these constructions.

quote:Neither the federal Wildlife Service nor the state Wildlife Conservation Department could block construction of the low-water dams.

or at least looked into trying to get it blocked but do you think that these people don't know what they're talking about? I think they do and it's pretty evident that the only voices that actually get heard are the ones with big money to launch a tv ad campaign and when you have a lot of money being put into something like this on one side and just regular folks that actually know what's going to happen on the other side that doesn't have these deep pockets then you're going to hear more for the building of the dams than you hear from the folks that know it's going to destroy a lot of river habitat just because of the lack of funds to fight against this and then maybe even the media wouldn't want to be democratic in it's presentation of the facts when it could hurt their income if they didn't side with the big money guys 100% of the time.

I don't see any point in discussing this any further though. you want the dams ... then I want them too ... I like the idea of the fish being able to come through zink dam. I don't get a vote though as I'm not in tulsa county. I'd still vote no because it's the right thing to do. some years from now if the dams do get put in, as this isn't the end of it even if the vote is no, they'll try something else then something else and it'll be a constant battle to prevent this stuff from being put in but in the end I think they'll probably go up anyhow. Just remember that when you're driving across 71st street the next time there's low flow just roll down your window and picture that smell being there 24/7 because of the dam down river and all the dead fish lining the banks and then remember that tiny told ya so.

Saying I'm like the kid that has the football and not wanting to play because the other kids won't play by the rules is kinda silly since it's tulsa that has the football in this situation. The river belongs to me and how dare tulsa do damage to it just because it runs through 30 miles of tulsa county or however long it is. How dare they take it upon themselves to destroy that much prarie river habitat just because they want a big money pitt to build on and charge tulsa county tax payers anything to get it done then reap the rewards where the few rich folks that can build on it or buy and sell property around it to make money or whatever their plans are ... they're messing up my river by gawd and they have no right to do so. the river belongs to me as an oklahoman, just as much as it does every oklahoman and if they're allowed to destroy it or do just anything they want to it where it runs across their land then there's something seriously wrong with oklahoma laws. Laws should be in place to prevent city or county to do anything with water flow like they did with zink dam ... tulsa wanted a little playground lake and they built one ... two to be exact but they blew the other one up ... that's what they should be forced to do with zink dam and then be forced to leave our river alone.

[waterboy]

Like you, I don't want the dams. Like you, I would love to have my natural river tweaked but not changed into lakes. Unlike you, I am willing to tolerate them if the majority rules and the protective government agencies say it can be done without too much damage to the ecology.

Also unlike you I don't think the press is eliminating coverage of the anti-river arguments and events. The anti-s are just gathering momentum and the press is more than anxious to sell ad space by covering both sides. They are the bookies in the process.

Good luck and good fishing brother.

[Tiny]

I can tolerate um I guess if they go up because if the fish come through the dams I can fish more below the dam. if they go up then there's nothing to do but tolerate um. but there's no need to stand idly by without voicing an oppinion on stuff like this when there's quite a bit at stake.

zink lake didn't spark too much development it doesn't seem like and there's some use that people get out of the bike trail or jogging trail around it but I've never seen but a few people there using it. I've never seen people fishing in zink lake at all but seen lots of people fishing below it. the lake itself is pretty much dead to fishing activity. never seen any boats on it or anything of any kind ... I have seen a couple of old folks admiring the fountain or whatever that deal is on the east side of the pedestrian bridge. seen one little rude gal running across it being mean to folks and telling them to step aside and hollering at them instead of just going around ... that was pretty comical. seems like she'd have gotten more excersize if she'd have just went around the old folks instead of scaring them half to death when running up behind them. that's not of any importance but thought I'd include that as it was kinda funny. it seems that the river tax vote about 17% yes and 68% no with the rest undecided in the KRMG poll. They'll probably have to figure out another way to fund this injustice to oklahoma ... maybe if it takes long enough the kaiser money will go away and then we can worry bout their next attempts to mess up the river.