Turnpike/interstate question

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

May I add, Tulsa roads are in poor shape, pot holes, chuck holes, too narrow, too old. The I-44 section thru Tulsa is old and narrow and needs to be widened. Lewis & Peoria are narrow roads full of holes and bumps. The RiverSide jogging Trail is also in poor shape full of pot holes, cracks, narrow, crumbling and badly needs a rebuild. There's alot of road work that needs to be done. or so it seems to me. thanx.

Both I-44 and the Riverside trails already have promised funding.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

May I add, Tulsa roads are in poor shape, pot holes, chuck holes, too narrow, too old. The I-44 section thru Tulsa is old and narrow and needs to be widened. Lewis & Peoria are narrow roads full of holes and bumps. The RiverSide jogging Trail is also in poor shape full of pot holes, cracks, narrow, crumbling and badly needs a rebuild. There's alot of road work that needs to be done. or so it seems to me. thanx.

Both I-44 and the Riverside trails already have promised funding.

And most of Peoria has just been rebuilt.

Lewis does still need work.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

sauerkraut wrote:

All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.

<end clip>

U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?

With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.

U.S. 75 to Texas is not an Interstate, although short portions of it are limited access.  

There are at least a dozen stop lights between Glenpool and the Texas border.  Interstate Highways seem to lack Traffic Lights.

The fact is Tulsa is the only major city in the U.S. lacking access to a FREE interstate highway.  

ALL Interstates to or from Tulsa are Toll-ways.

Kind along the same historical hose-job on Tulsa as the largest city in the U.S. to lack a four-year state supported college until OSU-Tulsa absorbed UCAT.

Just kind of make you wonder:  WHY???

It's more of the TULSA PREMIUM!

[}:)]

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

sauerkraut wrote:

All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.

<end clip>

U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?

With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.

U.S. 75 to Texas is not an Interstate, although short portions of it are limited access.  

There are at least a dozen stop lights between Glenpool and the Texas border.  Interstate Highways seem to lack Traffic Lights.

The fact is Tulsa is the only major city in the U.S. lacking access to a FREE interstate highway.  

ALL Interstates to or from Tulsa are Toll-ways.

Kind along the same historical hose-job on Tulsa as the largest city in the U.S. to lack a four-year state supported college until OSU-Tulsa absorbed UCAT.

Just kind of make you wonder:  WHY???

It's more of the TULSA PREMIUM!

[}:)]

It's a State of Oklahoma Screw Job on it's second largest city. We pay fuel taxes just the same as the rest of the state, but our major access roads are all turnpikes.

Just the same as the State of Oklahoma does not allow a real four year University in Tulsa and we just recently got a quasi-public hospital and we have no passenger rail access. In all cases we are the largest or among the largest cities in the nation without such services, and all are state driven issues, not local.

An excellent example is that our fuel taxes are used for state matching funds to pay for passenger rail service to Oklahoma City, which has two non-toll interstates while we have no free interstates and no rail service. A metro region with three public four year Universities and with two long standing public hospital complexes while only being 1/3 larger than our Metro area.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

sauerkraut wrote:

All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.

<end clip>

U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?

With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.

U.S. 75 to Texas is not an Interstate, although short portions of it are limited access.  

There are at least a dozen stop lights between Glenpool and the Texas border.  Interstate Highways seem to lack Traffic Lights.

The fact is Tulsa is the only major city in the U.S. lacking access to a FREE interstate highway.  

ALL Interstates to or from Tulsa are Toll-ways.

Kind along the same historical hose-job on Tulsa as the largest city in the U.S. to lack a four-year state supported college until OSU-Tulsa absorbed UCAT.

Just kind of make you wonder:  WHY???

It's more of the TULSA PREMIUM!

[}:)]

It's a State of Oklahoma Screw Job on it's second largest city. We pay fuel taxes just the same as the rest of the state, but our major access roads are all turnpikes.

Just the same as the State of Oklahoma does not allow a real four year University in Tulsa and we just recently got a quasi-public hospital and we have no passenger rail access. In all cases we are the largest or among the largest cities in the nation without such services, and all are state driven issues, not local.

An excellent example is that our fuel taxes are used for state matching funds to pay for passenger rail service to Oklahoma City, which has two non-toll interstates while we have no free interstates and no rail service. A metro region with three public four year Universities and with two long standing public hospital complexes while only being 1/3 larger than our Metro area.

Good analysis, SWAKE.

But, still the questions remain:  WHY???

Why haven't our state legislators fought harder to get a real four-year university for Tulsa?  It was 1982 before that cobbled-together abortion of a University called UCAT was formed.  What happened between 1907 and 2007???

Why haven't our state legislators fought harder for the cornucopia of road-building money that has rained down the past 50 years on Oklahoma City building six lane highways in every direction, and also the rural areas building 4 lane highways from nowhere to next-to-nowhere?

Why was I-44 widening not begun until 25 years after totally traffic saturation?  Morning and night, there is a tie-up on the stretch between Sheridan and Peoria, going east or west?

Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, Oh why?

It's the TULSA PREMIUM!

[8]

[sauerkraut]

I think the state of Oklahoma should turn at least two of the interstates around Tulsa into free interstates. All the major interstates around Tulsa are toll roads and also some non-interstate roads are toll roads, such as U.S. highway 412 and the BA expressway eastbound turns into a toll road. If nothing else the state should just make I-44 a free road from OKC to the Missouri state line, that would be a big break to the people of Oklahoma. Orlando FL. is worse, they have toll roads all over, even roads inside the Orlando city limet are toll roads. Chicago has alot of toll roads but they also have a few free roads that ya can take.

[rwarn17588]

That sounds great, sauerkraut, but what would you replace that lost revenue with if you got rid of the toll roads?

Oklahoma has a hard enough time keeping its roads up to snuff with the revenue sources it already has.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

That sounds great, sauerkraut, but what would you replace that lost revenue with if you got rid of the toll roads?

Oklahoma has a hard enough time keeping its roads up to snuff with the revenue sources it already has.

I looked up the OTA budget once, and about .06 a gallon gas tax would be enough to replace all toll revenue for OTA.

So your $2.79 a gallon gas today would become $2.85.

[cannon_fodder]

I guess I really do not understand what the problem is, you use the road... you pay for it.  

If we paid another 6 cents in gas taxes we would only get a portion of that back... I believe it would be like 4 cents.  Then you would complain about OKC taking our money for their roads.  If SemGroup donated an entirely new road Shadows should complain about the sign that said so.

It does suck that Tulsa has more toll roads than other places, but its nice that Tulsa has such nice highway infrastructure for a city its size.  Certainly without Tulsans paying for it no one else would.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

That sounds great, sauerkraut, but what would you replace that lost revenue with if you got rid of the toll roads?

Oklahoma has a hard enough time keeping its roads up to snuff with the revenue sources it already has.

The other states can do it with free roads, just copy their system. Michigan has no toll roads, Ohio only has the "Ohio Turnpike" that runs thru the north part of the state. Many states have no toll roads at all...Once a toll road is paid off why not let it become free like the Dallas-Fort Worth I-30 toll road did in 1976. I don't think Missouri has any toll roads. People who have to use toll roads every day spend a ton of money on tolls, they really add up.

[dbacks fan]

From Wikipedia:
"A two-axle vehicle currently pays $3.50 ($3.35 with Pikepass) to drive the full length of the Turnpike. When adjusted for inflation, tolls have fallen over 60% to 4 cents per mile, among the cheapest in the nation. (In 2005 dollars, the toll was $9.00 in 1953.) However, despite being paid off, the Turner Turnpike will remain tolled, as Oklahoma does not toll its roads on a "per road" basis, instead pooling all toll revenue to apply toward paying off all such projects. This is called cross pledging, which has allowed OTA to build many turnpikes that would not be economically feasible alone."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Turnpike

This debate has gone on since I started driving in 1979. I have always looked at it as a cashcow for the OTA to build mor turnpikes.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by dbacks fan

From Wikipedia:
"A two-axle vehicle currently pays $3.50 ($3.35 with Pikepass) to drive the full length of the Turnpike. When adjusted for inflation, tolls have fallen over 60% to 4 cents per mile, among the cheapest in the nation. (In 2005 dollars, the toll was $9.00 in 1953.) However, despite being paid off, the Turner Turnpike will remain tolled, as Oklahoma does not toll its roads on a "per road" basis, instead pooling all toll revenue to apply toward paying off all such projects. This is called cross pledging, which has allowed OTA to build many turnpikes that would not be economically feasible alone."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Turnpike

This debate has gone on since I started driving in 1979. I have always looked at it as a cashcow for the OTA to build mor turnpikes.

That's intresting how Oklahoma does it, but it makes no sense- Why not make a toll road A FREE road when it's paid off? The other highways that are not paid off keep the toll. That is much more logical, but the turnpike agency does not want the roads to go free because many jobs are on the line.. It makes no sense to keep all toll roads in the whole state  as toll roads till the other toll roads are paid off. Much of the toll goes to support the workers wages. The Ohio TurnPike employees who man the toll booths make over $17.00 an hour. I dunno what what Oklahoma toll workers get...IMO the reason for the toll roads is to make another gov't agency and another way to collect money for wages of the people who work at the turnpike agency. If they would make all the toll roads free roads in Oklahoma many people would be out of a high paying job. JMO, thanx.[B)]

[cannon_fodder]

To everyone's surprise I disagree.

I'm a fan of use taxes.  The fair should be high enough to cover maintenance on the roadway.  The practice of subsidizing additional roadways with the old is easily questioned, but so long as that remains a minimal portion of revenue I'm ok with it.  Its as good a method as any to help fund those projects (though they should become toll roads and pay for themselves in the future, it will cut back on the states bond expense).

Downloading the financials for the PikePass Authority:
http://www.pikepass.com/about/traffic/cafr.htm
all 10 megs of it.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

quote:Originally posted by dbacks fan

From Wikipedia:
"A two-axle vehicle currently pays $3.50 ($3.35 with Pikepass) to drive the full length of the Turnpike. When adjusted for inflation, tolls have fallen over 60% to 4 cents per mile, among the cheapest in the nation. (In 2005 dollars, the toll was $9.00 in 1953.) However, despite being paid off, the Turner Turnpike will remain tolled, as Oklahoma does not toll its roads on a "per road" basis, instead pooling all toll revenue to apply toward paying off all such projects. This is called cross pledging, which has allowed OTA to build many turnpikes that would not be economically feasible alone."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Turnpike

This debate has gone on since I started driving in 1979. I have always looked at it as a cashcow for the OTA to build mor turnpikes.

That's intresting how Oklahoma does it, but it makes no sense- Why not make a toll road A FREE road when it's paid off? The other highways that are not paid off keep the toll. That is much more logical, but the turnpike agency does not want the roads to go free because many jobs are on the line.. It makes no sense to keep all toll roads in the whole state  as toll roads till the other toll roads are paid off. Much of the toll goes to support the workers wages. The Ohio TurnPike employees who man the toll booths make over $17.00 an hour. I dunno what what Oklahoma toll workers get...IMO the reason for the toll roads is to make another gov't agency and another way to collect money for wages of the people who work at the turnpike agency. If they would make all the toll roads free roads in Oklahoma many people would be out of a high paying job. JMO, thanx.[B)]

It also allows for the existing road to pay for the new road instead of financing the road projects.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

To everyone's surprise I disagree.

I'm a fan of use taxes.  The fair should be high enough to cover maintenance on the roadway.  The practice of subsidizing additional roadways with the old is easily questioned, but so long as that remains a minimal portion of revenue I'm ok with it.  Its as good a method as any to help fund those projects (though they should become toll roads and pay for themselves in the future, it will cut back on the states bond expense).

Downloading the financials for the PikePass Authority:
http://www.pikepass.com/about/traffic/cafr.htm
all 10 megs of it.

Gasoline taxes are also use-taxes. People who buy gasoline use the roads. I do not like toll roads. The toll paying is a hassle, and as I see it if other states can have free interstate highways why can't Oklahoma? Much of the money for the interstate systems comes from the fed gov't anyhoo. People who have to drive toll roads every day spend alot of money on them, if you drive $2.00 worth of toll road mileage one way, that's $4.00 a day round trip, 5 days a week, 4 weeks in a month, times 12 months. That's quite a bundle. You do the math, my brain is on the fritz today... That's quite a chunk of green. Plus that driver still has to pay gas taxes and vehicle license fees. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I just do-not like toll roads and I'm glad we have no toll roads in central Ohio. or so it seems to me, thanx.[B)]