Fish & Wildlife Study Impact On River Plan

[Conan71]

^^I think Dscott mentioned on one of the other threads that the anti's were using fear.  How's that for a fear tactic for the yes folk?

I noticed Piercy couldn't give a definite on that answer when asked directly last night either.

[Tiny]

they were required to open the gate on zink dam also but they quit doin it then it silted the gate in.

sounds like these people are throwing this stuff at us about the gates to get some to vote yes and then when the dams go up and they lower the gates one time and see and smell all the dead zebra mussels coverging all the rocks that were previously under water they'll decide to not lower the water level again. The zebra mussels infested the higher water levels this summer at keystone lake and they haven't been in there all that long ... just a few years but they spread fast enough that they pretty much covered the rocks that were under the flood waters for a couple of months and the stink was pretty bad .... expand that to 9 months in the arkansas river and then lower the water levels the rocks will be almost completely covered in zebra mussels ... it's gonna be a nice aroma when they lower the water levels as promised the first year and then will they lower them again ... I doubt it unless there's someone controlling the gates that doesn't have to smell the rotting zebra mussels. will the pressure from the residents around there force their hand in keeping the gates closed for any number of reasons and not just because of the stinking?

I can't see anyone following through with promises of opening the gates that are proposed ... they didn't do it on zink dam and there weren't any zebra mussels back then. also will the zebra mussels be able to foul the gates and prevent them from operating properly?

this is just me wondering about stuff like this, mostly. I mean if someone or some group has control of the gates that can be put under pressure to leave them closed during the times specified which should probably be almost three months as bluecat should be considered in this gate opening and not just striper and spoonbill ... bluecat are a migratory spawner as well and they leave the lake in keystone to head up towards kaw to spawn on the third week of may ... well from the second week to the third week they're headed up river and are usually gone by the third week ... they'll be like this down below tulsa also and should start making their way through the gates around June 1 and spawning from then until mid to late june ... they can get back down river but can't get over the gates if they're closed when they get there around june first. will they allow the gates to be open from april first to about June 7th? Or, is the bluecat not going to be considered in this study? it is now one of oklahoma's major gamefish. Some of the people also call them Mississippi Whites that live around Tulsa and east of Tulsa.

[Tony]

You can call HONEST information fear, or you can call it information -- the proponents dodge the issue on how Federal Flood boundaries will change with a higher elevation dam at Sand Springs -- they don't have a clue (or do have and conveniently say it won't change -- I call BS on that) -- Lots of the proponents skirt around the useful aspects of the "ponds" during a PROLONGED water release from Keystone like we had for three months this summer -- it takes the corps a LONG time to release all that water and the RIVER is for all practical purposes (fishing too) unavailable to most people for any SAFE recreational use.

These proposed lakes WILL destroy the Striped Bass spawn -- it is a fact -- Striped bass eggs must tumble in current for 72 hours(or swirl in eddies) after being broadcast and fertilized -- if eggs sink to the bottom they are covered by sediment and die. When any eggs produced upstream of the proposed dams hit the ponds they will settle to the bottom due to loss in current velocity -- OKLAHOMA will loose this resource -- thats not theory thats FACT. Striped bass spawn above Zink dam as well as below Zink dam -- as it is now the viability of those fish above Zink dam has been severly impacted for the last 23 years -- they are just barely holding their own in this area --

The proposed dams won't ever have enough flow thru current velocity UNLESS water is released from streambed level, the flow thru design proposal is over the top of drop boards -- it would be CRITICAL to OKLAHOMAS fishery that if any dams were built that they would have total flow through from March till Mid July -- Like Tiny I don't see that ever happening -- It didn't happen with Zink and that was the promise then-- Tiny has an excellent point about the Zebra mussel infestations -- they are already bad and getting worse --- static pools will further ENCOURAGE this infestation.  Zebra Mussels do not do well in current areas, another point that should be brought to light in this discourse.

Build on the banks all you want -- leave the river alone --

So who cares about the fish you proponents all say ?-- in answer the STATE of OKLAHOMA does.

Zink dam has been the demise of a once OUTSTANDING fishery below Keystone dam --
All of the information posted is available to be reviewed in the Journals of the American Fisheries Society studies.

[TheArtist]

Let the state stand up for them then if its such a big issue.

[Tony]

The state did just last week - something that bothered Vic Vreeland so much he asked for equal rebuttal time, the SAME Vic Vreeland who has made known for the PUBLIC to hear "We won't let environmental issues stand in our way" (paraphrased from the Jenks open Gurnsey/INCOG info mercial and in front of six witnesses.)
The proponents convienently choose to ignore the FACTS of the case.

Makes one wonder what other "opportunities" they choose to ignore[V]

[waterboy]

The Zebra mussel is an interesting problem. Unless they find an efficient predator for them they may indeed mess up the gates. And I suppose stink as well. But other water communities are also having to deal with them including all area lakes. Isn't this a problem that can be managed along with the blue cat? (arent' those also called Channel cats?)

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

The Zebra mussel is an interesting problem. Unless they find an efficient predator for them they may indeed mess up the gates. And I suppose stink as well. But other water communities are also having to deal with them including all area lakes. Isn't this a problem that can be managed along with the blue cat? (arent' those also called Channel cats?)

Blue and Channel are different.

[Conan71]

What's interesting is that Oologah has had a Zebra Mussel problem for several years- longer than Keystone.  Yet when the water receded this year from the flooding, no evidence is found of the mussels on rocks.  Resident boats I've seen hauled out recently have little to no infestation on their keels, hulls, or rudders.  Boats hauled out a few years ago would be covered, as was dock material.

I don't know what's going on, but at least to my un-trained eye the problem seems to be easing on Oologah.

[Tony]

And you wouldn't have seen any colonies in the recent flood levels once water has receeded to normal conservation pool -- the colonies form on the rocks below conservation pool level-- they cover just about anything that is on bottom or sticks up out of it -- they don't receed and have no natural predator -- but Drum and Bluecat fish do eat them. Oologah has immense colonies in the submerged brush and rocks below conservation pool -- as well Sooner has the same problem, Keystone has them presently colonizing the less turbid arms of the lake, and they spread by veliger larva in the spring ---so once established in the Arkansas River there is no control agent for them. I have pictures of colonized lakes in Kansas -- not a pretty sight when water is low and they do become a stinking mess.

[Tiny]

they're already in the arkansas below keystone tony ... there's a lot of them that are dead on the side of the bank where the flood water level was for a few weeks.

the ones that I'm talking about over on keystone was well above conservation pool level and on all the rocks around the shoreline around cowskin bay and everywhere else. it only took them a couple of months to get up there and get pretty thick in some spots even though keystone has only had them a few years. keystone waters are probably ideal habitat for them ... lots of zooplankton for them to filter out and that's evident from the shad population.

I was walking across the rocks just as recently as yesterday to load my boat on the trailer and they were everywhere on those rocks by the boat ramp at swift park. not real thick but still yet everywhere ... this is only the second or third year too.

they weren't very thick over on the rocks at cowskin bay but they stunk pretty badly when the water went down. there was probably 10 to 40 on each rock. They're a lot thicker on oologah.

Bluecat are a different species than channelcat... channelcat are more of a resident fish also ... they spawn in the lake or just anywhere they are. blue catfish are migratory and the identification characteristics is by the number of rays in the anal fins of these two species ... bluecat have 30 to 34 anal fin rays and channelcat have between 25 to 29 ... male channelcat can also be blue during the spawn ... the males turn blue and their heads swell up and they're the ones that guard the nests. when the male channelcat turns blue it's almost a bluejean color blue and they're solid blue. the real bluecat are most of the time white on most of their body ... the less light they're exposed to the more white they'll be .. like in mid winter in a muddy lake they'll turn almost chalk white ... if they're in a shallow clear water system they can get almost black in color. their coloration is also part of the reason why eastern oklahomans call them "mississippi whites" ... they thought we already had a bluecat pre 60's but those were just male channelcat ... male channelcat are also called chucklehead blues but the way to tell them apart is by counting their anal fin rays ... less than 30 = channelcat ... more than 30 = bluecat

[waterboy]

I saw on one of the nature channels that sea otters eat shellfish and it made me wonder if river otters might eat mussels. If so we could sure breed those little guys to do the work. Otherwise they will be stinking the place up.

[Tony]

Lets see the Engineers have as part of the PROMISES to open the gates during migrating /spawning time  - the bottom is coated with colonies of Zebra Mussels coating every rock and structure they can adhere to-
a 90 degree May day and exposed mussel beds -- should be a great Aroma for Tulsa joggers.[8]

The gates will be opened EXACTLY one time -- unless it is written into a law with some teeth.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Tony

Lets see the Engineers have as part of the PROMISES to open the gates during migrating /spawning time  - the bottom is coated with colonies of Zebra Mussels coating every rock and structure they can adhere to-
a 90 degree May day and exposed mussel beds -- should be a great Aroma for Tulsa joggers.[8]

The gates will be opened EXACTLY one time -- unless it is written into a law with some teeth.

When Mayor Chatty Kathy Taylor puts "water in the river", she's going to destroy the native habitat of the Least Tern.

Period.

Those little guys exist on the sand bars out in the river, being as they are a land-roosting bird.  

Out on those sand bars, they avoid hungry PREDATORS.

Put water in the River, and they go:  Bye-Bye.

No more Least Terns.  They become:

The Lesser Terns of Tulsa.

[:O]

[carltonplace]

Huh? The least tern and bald eagles are on the top of everyone's radar, no one wants to displace them. In fact regulating the ON/OFF water level should give them more permanent nesting spots then the nightly rush of water allows for.

Also, I did not know that this plan was all Mayor Taylor's idea. I thought this was a colaboration of many agencies (INCOG, CORPS, RPA, public input, county, cities and private contributors like George Kaiser). If Mayor Taylor is acting alone then she certainly has accomplished alot.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Tony

Lets see the Engineers have as part of the PROMISES to open the gates during migrating /spawning time  - the bottom is coated with colonies of Zebra Mussels coating every rock and structure they can adhere to-
a 90 degree May day and exposed mussel beds -- should be a great Aroma for Tulsa joggers.[8]

The gates will be opened EXACTLY one time -- unless it is written into a law with some teeth.

When Mayor Chatty Kathy Taylor puts "water in the river", she's going to destroy the native habitat of the Least Tern.

Period.

Those little guys exist on the sand bars out in the river, being as they are a land-roosting bird.  

Out on those sand bars, they avoid hungry PREDATORS.

Put water in the River, and they go:  Bye-Bye.

No more Least Terns.  They become:

The Lesser Terns of Tulsa.

[:O]

There you go again. You have no basis for those assertions. Least terns in total along the river are rising in numbers according to latest counts. The two areas that will be covered with water represent a very small portion that floods every night throughout the nesting season anyway. You ain't never been on those bars in the evening and watched them be covered with the generation flow.

Stick to conspiracies Bear, your forte is not nature.