TulsaNow River Forum - Send Us Your Questions!

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote: Will the dams have to be the same cheaper Zink Lake designs as originally intended?  

No intent was specified, just that two dams would be built at the locations determined by INCOG's Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan. The designs were dependent upon these locations and, thus, any design would have been premature.

Now that they have the locations, and now the 'dreams' defined, let V2025 build them.

Or, at least work within a budget. These dams have more than doubled in cost due simply to overachieving.

There had to be some intent because even with the matching funds and cost overages estimates the sums they were hoping to eventually get still wouldnt come close to building a dam like the one proposed for Sand Springs. The new Sand Springs design will be taller and have controllable release gates to allow for water to flow during the day. There is no way you can look at what they were hoping to get and then look at the amount these new dam designs will cost and think that they intended anything like these new dams.

That's because the current 'plan' contains dam and channel projects from 'The Channels' rather than INCOG's Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote: Will the dams have to be the same cheaper Zink Lake designs as originally intended?  

No intent was specified, just that two dams would be built at the locations determined by INCOG's Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan. The designs were dependent upon these locations and, thus, any design would have been premature.

Now that they have the locations, and now the 'dreams' defined, let V2025 build them.

Or, at least work within a budget. These dams have more than doubled in cost due simply to overachieving.

There had to be some intent because even with the matching funds and cost overages estimates the sums they were hoping to eventually get still wouldnt come close to building a dam like the one proposed for Sand Springs. The new Sand Springs design will be taller and have controllable release gates to allow for water to flow during the day. There is no way you can look at what they were hoping to get and then look at the amount these new dam designs will cost and think that they intended anything like these new dams.

That's because the current 'plan' contains dam and channel projects from 'The Channels' rather than INCOG's Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan.

Channels:
increase size of existing low water dam, create artificial island between 21st and 31st.

Current:
Build new dams at sand springs and jenks. Discard plans for further dams, dredge out channel throughout midtown area.

Yeah, same thing.

[waterboy]

Question: how much did it cost to build the Bricktown improvements (including the canal)? How much did it cost to build the Oklahoma River improvements?

What surrounding communities around OKC refused to participate?

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Question: how much did it cost to build the Bricktown improvements (including the canal)? How much did it cost to build the Oklahoma River improvements?

What surrounding communities around OKC refused to participate?

                                              MAPS is a city tax, not a county tax. They don't compare.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Question: how much did it cost to build the Bricktown improvements (including the canal)? How much did it cost to build the Oklahoma River improvements?

What surrounding communities around OKC refused to participate?

                                              MAPS is a city tax, not a county tax. They don't compare.

The suburbs around okc give a rats ___ about the city as well, unlike Tulsa.

[Rico]

Sorry... this is a two part question..

In light of the recent catastrophic bridge collapse in Minnesota, wouldn't it be better use of County funds to repair the bridges listed as having serious structural issues, than to fund playgrounds and frivolities on the River...?

In Tulsa County that is.

If this tax increase is designed to bolster "Sales Tax" revenue... so that we can do the major infrastructure repairs.

Would you say we are about 7 years out on being able to commence these structural repairs.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote: Will the dams have to be the same cheaper Zink Lake designs as originally intended?  

No intent was specified, just that two dams would be built at the locations determined by INCOG's Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan. The designs were dependent upon these locations and, thus, any design would have been premature.

Now that they have the locations, and now the 'dreams' defined, let V2025 build them.

Or, at least work within a budget. These dams have more than doubled in cost due simply to overachieving.

There had to be some intent because even with the matching funds and cost overages estimates the sums they were hoping to eventually get still wouldnt come close to building a dam like the one proposed for Sand Springs. The new Sand Springs design will be taller and have controllable release gates to allow for water to flow during the day. There is no way you can look at what they were hoping to get and then look at the amount these new dam designs will cost and think that they intended anything like these new dams.

That's because the current 'plan' contains dam and channel projects from 'The Channels' rather than INCOG's Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan.

Channels:
increase size of existing low water dam, create artificial island between 21st and 31st.

Current:
Build new dams at sand springs and jenks. Discard plans for further dams, dredge out channel throughout midtown area.

Yeah, same thing.

The current plan extracts the "Living River" component of "The Channels" plan, even if it MUST be modified somewhat to exclude the impounded river to Sand Springs and the Island.

This requires raising the level of Zink Lake by approximately two feet and using the Sand Springs dam retention as a moderator. Then the 500-foot wide channel from Zink dam to Jenks dam to provide constant water flow (i.e. "Living" part of river).

This does not conform with INCOG's Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan which calls only for two additional, similar dams for Jenks and Sand Springs, and no channelization. Though, the SS dam would need to be taller to allow some moderation of flow.

Now, let's speak more about the "discard plans for further dams" part.

[Wrinkle]

Here's something I hadn't heard before. The article is dated July 2006:

quote: "Fisheries biologists from the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation made an all-too-familiar discovery recently. While conducting research on striped bass in the Arkansas River, zebra mussels were found below Zink Dam in Tulsa. With the recent discovery of zebra mussels in Sooner and Skiatook lakes, this makes the third new location for zebra mussels this summer."

The source is HERE

So, I guess the question would be, "What effect will Zebra Mussels have on these projects?"

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Question: how much did it cost to build the Bricktown improvements (including the canal)? How much did it cost to build the Oklahoma River improvements?

What surrounding communities around OKC refused to participate?

                                              MAPS is a city tax, not a county tax. They don't compare.

That's naive. Everyone compares Bricktown/Oklahoma river development to our river development. I want to compare the cost of OKC development to ours as well as the benefits derived. They faced the same arguments that we are facing and overcame them. Are you afraid of that comparison?

[TheArtist]

Not to mention, as I have stated before, the city of OKC is larger than Tulsa County.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Question: how much did it cost to build the Bricktown improvements (including the canal)? How much did it cost to build the Oklahoma River improvements?

What surrounding communities around OKC refused to participate?

                                              MAPS is a city tax, not a county tax. They don't compare.

That's naive. Everyone compares Bricktown/Oklahoma river development to our river development. I want to compare the cost of OKC development to ours as well as the benefits derived. They faced the same arguments that we are facing and overcame them. Are you afraid of that comparison?

I think he's just saying the funding mechanism doesn't compare.  There has to be a MAPS web site which would have the info.  I've got a lot on my plate right now, otherwise I'd look it up myself.

[Tony]

The INCOG design on the gates for these dams is the SAME laydown gate that also never worked at Zink - despite all protestation that it isn't --so the only actual difference is in the IDEA that there will be passage built into the structures and a slope to the downstream side to alleviate the drowning machine effect of drop weir dams. The gates only real structural difference is that they would be wider and that they would open them during the months of March through May to allow migrating fish to pass -- as I recall this was also the promise when Zink was constructed -- basically we STILL will be getting the same dams sans a drop weir -- aren't we ALREADY spending millions to remove sand and silt from behind Zink -- I don't believe for one minute they will operate any new "ponds" as promised. Once filled these ponds will be kept at a constant level for one reason or the other -- too many unanswered questions for my liking -- IF it could be shown by relevant studies and the gates opening during those months written into law then I MIGHT get behind this.

[Chicken Little]

Question:  Mass transit could be used to link the many proposed redevelopment areas along this linear corridor, enhancing the potential for efficient, less car-dependent, growth, especially between a revitalizing downtown and a booming Jenks.

With rising gas prices and mounting costs for road maintenance, some feel that we should take this opportunity to rethink the way we develop in the Tulsa region.  Can we build in ways that aren't quite so car dependent?  

There has been virtually no talk about mass transit in the run up to this bond issue, and as far as I can see, mass transit is not a priority.  Was there a conscious decision to exclude mass transit from this vote?  Was it an accidental oversight?  Are there things in this bond that I haven't heard about? -- CL, Tulsa

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

Question:  Mass transit could be used to link the many proposed redevelopment areas along this linear corridor, enhancing the potential for efficient, less car-dependent, growth, especially between a revitalizing downtown and a booming Jenks.

With rising gas prices and mounting costs for road maintenance, some feel that we shold take this opportunity to rethink the way we develop in the Tulsa region.  Can we build in ways that aren't quite so car dependent?  

There has been virtually no talk about mass transit in the run up to this bond issue, and as far as I can see, mass transit is not a priority.  Was there a conscious decision to exclude mass transit from this vote?  Was it an accidental oversight?  Are there things in this bond that I haven't heard about?

Good question.  I hope it makes it to the forum tonight so the "yes" people can shine some light on it.

[Chicken Little]

It might be a loaded question.  If you look at the Corridor Plan, the BNSF line runs right down the west bank, connecting Jenks to downtown.  It goes right through the planned redevelopment areas.  It's a perfect alignment, and I don't think it's heavily used for freight.  There's been no mention of this other than a few odd comments on this board...and nothing in the vote, so far as I know.  It's bummng me out.

My fear is, if we blow this opportunity to think big, we'll end up with a bunch of parking lots and strip malls all along the River.  And if we do that, we'll end up having to build a massive new Riverside Drive on the west to support them.

So, if you set the bar too low, we could end up reaching it.  And if we reach it, we could end up with a mess that is not easy to fix.  Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy for those who lack vision.