Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?

[waterboy]

Councilor Eagleton insists that an additional 4/10 of a cent sales tax will erode sales tax collections in the city of Tulsa.

Perhaps he could pick up a copy of OklahomaGlory magazine. A glossy, professional centennial travel guide magazine available to prospective visitors to Oklahoma. Also can be viewed at TravelOK.com. Why? Well, it has all the great places to visit, stay and spend money on while here in Oklahoma, listed by region and by city.

OKC had a total of 17 pages of things to do, places to stay and dine. That included many full page full color ads for cities near OKC like Guthrie, Stillwater, Norman, El Reno, Shawnee and Chickasha. Very impressive the way surrounding communities "coat tail" onto the Bricktown/Downtown OKC development.

Tulsa? We had four pages which included a full page ad from Sand Springs. No other display ads. Some of our attractions? Bell's amusement-park, Redbud valley, Arkansas River Historical Museum. Been to those lately?

These questions come to mind.
  1. Which city would you choose to visit while in Oklahoma?
  2. How can surrounding cities in Tulsa County think there is nothing in this project for them?
  3. How can anyone but a politician pandering to anti-tax regulars bellow out that a 4/10 cent sales tax increase will erode total sales tax dollars in the face of success merely 80 miles away??

NOTE: OKC did their improvements from a sales tax increase, which was considered too high at the time.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Councilor Eagleton insists that an additional 4/10 of a cent sales tax will erode sales tax collections in the city of Tulsa.

Perhaps he could pick up a copy of OklahomaGlory magazine. A glossy, professional centennial travel guide magazine available to prospective visitors to Oklahoma. Also can be viewed at TravelOK.com. Why? Well, it has all the great places to visit, stay and spend money on while here in Oklahoma, listed by region and by city.

OKC had a total of 17 pages of things to do, places to stay and dine. That included many full page full color ads for cities near OKC like Guthrie, Stillwater, Norman, El Reno, Shawnee and Chickasha. Very impressive the way surrounding communities "coat tail" onto the Bricktown/Downtown OKC development.

Tulsa? We had four pages which included a full page ad from Sand Springs. No other display ads. Some of our attractions? Bell's amusement-park, Redbud valley, Arkansas River Historical Museum. Been to those lately?

I couldn't find the magazine online -- could you post a direct link?

I think what you have there is more proof, as if we needed any, of the shortcomings of Tulsa's convention and visitors bureau, a branch of the Tulsa Metro Chamber, funded by City of Tulsa hotel/motel tax dollars.

You and I both know there is far more worth seeing and doing in Tulsa and the surrounding area than what was contained in this magazine.

A few years ago when I was in Wichita on business, I found brochures for Tulsa and Oklahoma City in a rack at the hotel.

Oklahoma City's brochure had a big map on one side, and on the other side big words (with map coordinates) promoting their most family-friendly, cowboy-and-Indian attractions -- the zoo, the Cowboy Hall of Fame, the Omniplex, Frontier City. (None of which were funded by MAPS.)

Tulsa's brochure was targeted at a more upscale audience. It was a booklet, with tiny type, and it emphasized the opera, the ballet, fine art museums, and Utica Square.

If you're driving through Oklahoma with rowdy kids in the back of the minivan in need of a place to burn off some energy, which city would you aim for?

The job of marketing Tulsa to tourists needs to be put out for bids, with the CVB disqualified from bidding for poor past performance.

[Rico]

^
No that is not evidence that "sales taxes" do not work.........

However... Tulsa and Tulsa County define "sales tax" as the cure to all ills...

One day soon they are going to have to find a new way to get from point A to Z.

[sgrizzle]

http://oklahoma.dirxion.com/entrymap.asp?screen=1400&os=win

[Double A]

It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.

Well thank god for that. Can you imagine the impression someone would get going to Bells and thinking it was what we considered an attraction?

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Double A

It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.

Well thank god for that. Can you imagine the impression someone would get going to Bells and thinking it was what we considered an attraction?

By chance, have you ever been to Frontier Sh*#ty? The last time I was there(granted it's been many years), it made Bells(at it's worst) look like Disney World. Did you and waterbuoy weep to yourselves all the way home after the disapproving reception that the crowd gave to the pro tax side at the forum tonight? How's that TN poll going, BTW?

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

I think what you have there is more proof, as if we needed any, of the shortcomings of Tulsa's convention and visitors bureau, a branch of the Tulsa Metro Chamber, funded by City of Tulsa hotel/motel tax dollars.

You and I both know there is far more worth seeing and doing in Tulsa and the surrounding area than what was contained in this magazine.

The job of marketing Tulsa to tourists needs to be put out for bids, with the CVB disqualified from bidding for poor past performance.

Mr. Bates, I couldn't agree with you more.  Tulsa's biggest problem in terms of tourism is marketing.  The CVB does an awful job of identifying which Tulsa attractions to promote and who the target market tourists are.  Furthermore, there is a general lack of effort, in my opinion, to market the city's unique attractions and cultural infrastructure.  

There is a technical term for this phenomenon: marketing myopia.

[waterboy]

The link is www.TravelOK.com but the web site doesn't have the same impact as the glossy magazine.

Look, maybe the COC is poor at promoting Tulsa but the list of places to go and things to do in Tulsa was not deficient. Its just a small list. Are they responsible for waking up the surrounding communities to understand that its a centennial year and they should capitalizze on the marketing being done nationwide? Only Sand Springs understood the value of that and they should be angry that the rest of the regions left them out to dry.

What major attraction should the COC have featured? Perhaps the Arena though it opens late in the year. Perhaps the casinos or Brookside/Cherry St/Blue Dome/Riverwalk. There simply is no large focus for the rest of the region to hang its hat on. Bricktown is that focus for OKC along with all the other attractions like the Cowboy Museum, Remington, Whitewater, Frontier City, OmniPlex etc. THEN the other cities did ads that showed their claim to fame mentioning their close proximity to OKC...
  Shawnee-world class casino
  Norman-world class museums
  Stillwater-meeting & events facilities
  El Reno-rail based trolley & festivals
  Guthrie-first capital city, architecture, festivals, centennial events.
  Chickasha-festival of light

That region works together to play off of the central focus that Bricktown serves. Meanwhile we're arguing about how the burbs have nothing to gain from us establishing the River Project as a focus for the region. The proof of how a small sales tax can leverage into large sales tax returns, not erosion of returns, is clear to see. Unless you just have a political reason for opposing any tax and don't mind waiting 20 more years for v2025 overages to kick in. Yeah, culturally we're superior I guess. Business wise we're dense.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Double A

It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.

Well thank god for that. Can you imagine the impression someone would get going to Bells and thinking it was what we considered an attraction?

By chance, have you ever been to Frontier Sh*#ty? The last time I was there(granted it's been many years), it made Bells(at it's worst) look like Disney World. Did you and waterbuoy weep to yourselves all the way home after the disapproving reception that the crowd gave to the pro tax side at the forum tonight? How's that TN poll going, BTW?

My kids loved Frontier City when they we visited there in the 80's-90's. Put Bell's to shame.

No tears AA, but I wept inside for those who blurted out and applauded form over substance. Were you one of them? Nice pants btw.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Double A

It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.

Well thank god for that. Can you imagine the impression someone would get going to Bells and thinking it was what we considered an attraction?

By chance, have you ever been to Frontier Sh*#ty? The last time I was there(granted it's been many years), it made Bells(at it's worst) look like Disney World. Did you and waterbuoy weep to yourselves all the way home after the disapproving reception that the crowd gave to the pro tax side at the forum tonight? How's that TN poll going, BTW?

Didnt do any weeping. Though I wish the personalities had been a bit more balanced between the yes and no sides. The yes side had some facts but no balls. They were so woosy in their responses they couldnt debate their way out of a paper bag. It was like watching Mr Rogers debate Rush Limbaugh.

[Townsend]

It's a shame.

At least we're still "comfortably cosmopolitan".

or are we "I am something or other".

If the river vote fails, Tulsa is stuck in glue for another 10 years.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Councilor Eagleton insists that an additional 4/10 of a cent sales tax will erode sales tax collections in the city of Tulsa.

Eagleton did lose me on that point.  I guess I'm not enough of an economist for that to make sense.

Honestly, I don't think there was a problem with who they picked for the pro side.  I just don't think they have the full message to present yet.  It's hard to answer pointed questions when you don't know all the details or can't release them yet.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

It's a shame.

At least we're still "comfortably cosmopolitan".

or are we "I am something or other".

If the river vote fails, Tulsa is stuck in glue for another 10 years.

If the Oct. 9 river vote fails, this will not go away.  They will learn something from it, seek more input, provide more details and we will get it.  This was a suicide mission at best by calling for a vote in a 60 to 90 day time frame.

I'm sick and tired of the loose implication from the "yes" campaign that if we don't act now it will never happen.  That's pure B.S.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

It's a shame.

At least we're still "comfortably cosmopolitan".

or are we "I am something or other".

If the river vote fails, Tulsa is stuck in glue for another 10 years.

If the Oct. 9 river vote fails, this will not go away.  They will learn something from it, seek more input, provide more details and we will get it.  This was a suicide mission at best by calling for a vote in a 60 to 90 day time frame.

I'm sick and tired of the loose implication from the "yes" campaign that if we don't act now it will never happen.  That's pure B.S.

It took THREE votes (1997, 2000 and finally passed in 2003) before the local citizenry were softened up enough and the economy was bad enough that the voters succumbed to the JUST DO SOMETHING ploy.

If the Kaiser-River-Tax fails, the coldly, calculating local ruling Power Oligarchy and their clique of connected construction company cronies will regroup, re-shape the message and RAISE THE PRICE, and try again, and again, and again.

If they ultimately end of spending $5 million over the next 5 years to get the Kaiser River Tax passed, it will be well worth it to them, if they in turn gain control over 1/2 Billion dollars in future tax revenues.

Let's just do their arithmetric, shall we:  

Cost:  $5,000,000 to promote
Gross Receipts:  $500,000,000.

Return:  My business calculator doesn't compute that high of percentage return.  Must find a Tulsa Ruling Oligarchy calculator that goes that high to compute such an ASTRONOMICAL return on investment.

Okay, borrowed a calculator from a major Crack Wholesaler, and I've got it figured now:  

A whopping 10,000% return on their sales tax promotion "investment".

They'll then continue to build on their Third Fortunes, whistling all the while, while we are hosed in every purchase we make.

[:O]