Turner: BOK to punish North Tulsans tax stand

[Chicken Little]

FB, you can't even prove that your own charitable gifts are free of strings, remember?  Even if you tossed cash in the air, you would still be choosing where and when.  All gifts have conditions.  You just don't like these terms.  The problem here is that you are demanding something for nothing...just like you always do.  Sadly, this time it's not the city you are hustling, it's a generous man.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

FB, you can't even prove that your own charitable gifts are free of strings, remember?  Even if you tossed cash in the air, you would still be choosing where and when.  All gifts have conditions.  You just don't like these terms.  The problem here is that you are demanding something for nothing...just like you always do.  Sadly, this time it's not the city you are hustling, it's a generous man.

Uh, their donation was never a gift.  It was an investment in entertainment "hubs" and venues along the Kaiser River, I mean, ARKANSAS River.

And, Mr. K. probably knows exactly who hustled him.  Again.

After his bank got hustled on Great Plains Airlines for $8 million

And, it wasn't by FB.

Wonder if they EVER got their loan paid back??

He'll think twice before he lends his name to such a dubious enterprise as the River Tax in the future.

[:O]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

FB, you can't even prove that your own charitable gifts are free of strings, remember?  Even if you tossed cash in the air, you would still be choosing where and when.  All gifts have conditions.  You just don't like these terms.  The problem here is that you are demanding something for nothing...just like you always do.  Sadly, this time it's not the city you are hustling, it's a generous man.

Didn't you hear B4?

A Mother's Gift of LOVE to her Child is UNCONDITIONAL.

Are you barren?  Right?  Then, you just wouldn't understand.

And, NO, as you WRONGLY state, all gifts are NOT conditional.

In fact, a $10 Xmas gift is not conditional.

Writing a $100 check to the Salvation Army is not conditional.

Dropping $1 into the Salvation Army Bell's Ringers' pot at Xmas is not conditional.

Writing a $12 million check to the River Parks Authority to improve bike and walking trails does NOT have to be conditional.  

However, there may in fact be conditions to Mr. K's early "pump-priming" River Development gift just prior to the proposed Kaiser River Tax, but we are not privy to those conditions.  

Privacy, of course.  You do NOT know if there are or are not conditions, nor do I.

No, you are simply wrong to assert that all giving is conditional.  

Maybe that's how you give your Love.

FB prefers UNCONDITIONAL love.  And, he is soooooooo unloved.

[]

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

This doesn't even have legs anymore, it's starting to grow mold.

I'm more than happy to retire this thread, and "just move on", BUT, not in the face of blatant Revisionist History being posted by certain others who been drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPot Kool-Aid.

Long Live Winston Smith!

[!]

Blatant Revisionist history?  The only thing you have in common with Winston Smith is that you are also a fictional character... [}:)]

I stayed away from your verbose, bombastic psuedo-criminal accusations and constant name calling over the River Tax for months.... your side WON, you freak...

Every time I read any of your posts, it made me MUCH MORE LIKELY to vote for the 4/10's of a penny tax to beautify the river... you prove that over and over and over and over again in your posts ad infinitum that engaging in any kind of reasonable discussion is impossible... you talk in circles, a victim of your own anti-tax cultlike dogma...

I moved here from Chicago last year...... I suppose a few local "oligarchs" and "corrupt unions" and "construction interests" benfitted greatly from the construction of Millineum Park, which went millions and millions and millions of dollars over budget... I bet some of those "tax-vampires" made some good money, and I bet there was some corruption and cronyism involved...

But you know whut?........ most everybody LOVES the new park.  It's about "quality of life."  It doesn't have to be done on a Chicago-scale.  It's what makes OKC fun to drive to because of Bricktown... it's what could make Tulsa worth investing in... it could give Tulsa an area that could become "a destination"...

What have YOU done for Tulsa other than engage in MetroChamberPot conspiracy thoeories worthy of the poorly named "Voice of Tulsa"....??

I'm sick and tired of the intensely partisan dogmatic psuedo-conservative republican ILK that threatens to destroy the city of Tulsa from within... seems that anyone who doesn't toe the anti-any-and-every-tax line is politically incorrect and shall forever more be called a "RINO."

I talked to someone from Oklahoma City shortly before the Vision2025 vote in 2003.  I asked him how the same anti-everything OKC people I remember from my college days there in the 80s did an about-face?... how did a majority of its citizens vote to approve these MAPS projects?

He said that in his opinion, the people who hated the gubmint and hated the crime and hated the "foreigners" and hated the city in general were getting older and older...

Finally, enough of these old hateful, bitter, sticks-in-the-mud and their families put their money where their naysaying mouths were and moved on to "greener pastures" in Mustang, Yukon, Harrah, etc...... after that, the REAL people of OKC could have a reasonable debate, come to consensus, and form a supportable, if imperfect, plan for the city... and it probably didn't hurt when old man Gaylord relinquished the reins of the Daily Oklahoman to a younger, more mellow family member...(better late than never)...

These statements from George Kaiser make more sense than ANYTHING YOU'VE EVER POSTED and reflect the sentiments of many, many Tulsans AND ex-Tulsans...

"We are dissolving into hostile camps," Kaiser said this week. "We need a transformative event to rejuvenate our economy and spirit."

For Kaiser, the river development proposal presents an opportunity to bridge the gap between those people who might consider supporting a government-driven project and those who resent the very idea because "they feel they've been misled on occasion in the past."

"I think it's the INCOG (Indian Nations Council of Governments) plan and I don't have any preference," as long as the basic objectives are met, he said.

The Tennessee Valley Authority, consultants hired by the Kaiser foundation and others, worked with INCOG to address the river's persistent problem locally -- a lack of a steady flow of water.

[guido911]

USREF: I seen a few swipes at Voice of Tulsa. What is the deal with that site? And before you go there, don't go there...

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

FB, you can't even prove that your own charitable gifts are free of strings, remember?  Even if you tossed cash in the air, you would still be choosing where and when.  All gifts have conditions.  You just don't like these terms.  The problem here is that you are demanding something for nothing...just like you always do.  Sadly, this time it's not the city you are hustling, it's a generous man.

Didn't you hear B4?

A Mother's Gift of LOVE to her Child is UNCONDITIONAL.

Are you barren?  Right?  Then, you just wouldn't understand.

And, NO, as you WRONGLY state, all gifts are NOT conditional.

In fact, a $10 Xmas gift is not conditional.

Writing a $100 check to the Salvation Army is not conditional.

Dropping $1 into the Salvation Army Bell's Ringers' pot at Xmas is not conditional.

Writing a $12 million check to the River Parks Authority to improve bike and walking trails does NOT have to be conditional.  

However, there may in fact be conditions to Mr. K's early "pump-priming" River Development gift just prior to the proposed Kaiser River Tax, but we are not privy to those conditions.  

Privacy, of course.  You do NOT know if there are or are not conditions, nor do I.

No, you are simply wrong to assert that all giving is conditional.  

Maybe that's how you give your Love.

FB prefers UNCONDITIONAL love.  And, he is soooooooo unloved.

[]

You obviously havent met my mom.

10dollar xmas gift, hope you know what I like or need or it will be "regifted", though thats fine, becomes the gift that keeps on giving.

Writing a 100 dollar gift to the Salvation Army. Your deciding to give to them and not some other organization. There has to be some reason you choose to give to them. (I do not give to them because of their stance on some issues and I hope you dont give blindly)

Same as above with the 1 dollar bell ringer. Why not just give that dollar directly to the needy? Why not avoid the "conditional" middle man organization?


12 million dollar check to river parks to improve bike and walking trails. Well having the river parks use that money only for bike and walking trails IS a condition. Plus who knows how they would even use it for bikes and trails, may not be the way you want or think is best. Not just going to give them 12 mill and say, have at it and do whatever you want with it. Who knows what they could come up with in this city. Perhaps more statues?

Unconditional love? You can say you give your love unconditionally, BUT,there is always a But lol, everything else does have conditions on it. How you treat them, what you give them, what behavior you expect from them, etc. I could say I love everyone unconditionally, but what does that really mean? How does that translate into day to day reality? You hit me, I will still love you, I may or may not hit you back, not out of hate or becase I dont love you, but because I decide that you need to be hit back to see what it is like to be hit lol. I expect to be treated right, its not a condition for my love. If you choose to leave because you cant hit me without being hit back. You wont be leaving because I didnt love you, it would be because you want to misbehave and dont like being hit back lol. ( may not be the best example but I hope ya get my drift, and no I am not a violent person, course I dont get hit either, but if I did.... [B)])

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

USREF: I seen a few swipes at Voice of Tulsa. What is the deal with that site? And before you go there, don't go there...

Well, it's pretty one-sided, in my opinion... I should be nicer to them though.  At least a couple of those posters are old Tulsa Roughnecks' fans... []

I haven't gone to that site in months?... think that site was the first place I saw MetroTulsaChamberPot used in a post but I could be wrong.

To each his own.  Free country... I just don't drink their kool-aid... []

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Blatant Revisionist history?  The only thing you have in common with Winston Smith is that you are also a fictional character... [}:)]

Nice.  2nd sentence in and you know it's going to be worth reading.  

Great post.  I have seen the silver bean!

Artist gets points, too.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by guido911

USREF: I seen a few swipes at Voice of Tulsa. What is the deal with that site? And before you go there, don't go there...

Well, it's pretty one-sided, in my opinion... I should be nicer to them though.  At least a couple of those posters are old Tulsa Roughnecks' fans... []

I haven't gone to that site in months?... think that site was the first place I saw MetroTulsaChamberPot used in a post but I could be wrong.

To each his own.  Free country... I just don't drink their kool-aid... []

Actually, FBob posted that here first.   You see, TulsaNow is a FRONT for the TAXTHIRSTY somethin' whatever [snore....]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

This doesn't even have legs anymore, it's starting to grow mold.

I'm more than happy to retire this thread, and "just move on", BUT, not in the face of blatant Revisionist History being posted by certain others who been drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPot Kool-Aid.

Long Live Winston Smith!

[!]

Blatant Revisionist history?  The only thing you have in common with Winston Smith is that you are also a fictional character... [}:)]

I stayed away from your verbose, bombastic psuedo-criminal accusations and constant name calling over the River Tax for months.... your side WON, you freak...

Every time I read any of your posts, it made me MUCH MORE LIKELY to vote for the 4/10's of a penny tax to beautify the river... you prove that over and over and over and over again in your posts ad infinitum that engaging in any kind of reasonable discussion is impossible... you talk in circles, a victim of your own anti-tax cultlike dogma...

I moved here from Chicago last year...... I suppose a few local "oligarchs" and "corrupt unions" and "construction interests" benfitted greatly from the construction of Millineum Park, which went millions and millions and millions of dollars over budget... I bet some of those "tax-vampires" made some good money, and I bet there was some corruption and cronyism involved...

But you know whut?........ most everybody LOVES the new park.  It's about "quality of life."  It doesn't have to be done on a Chicago-scale.  It's what makes OKC fun to drive to because of Bricktown... it's what could make Tulsa worth investing in... it could give Tulsa an area that could become "a destination"...

What have YOU done for Tulsa other than engage in MetroChamberPot conspiracy thoeories worthy of the poorly named "Voice of Tulsa"....??

I'm sick and tired of the intensely partisan dogmatic psuedo-conservative republican ILK that threatens to destroy the city of Tulsa from within... seems that anyone who doesn't toe the anti-any-and-every-tax line is politically incorrect and shall forever more be called a "RINO."

I talked to someone from Oklahoma City shortly before the Vision2025 vote in 2003.  I asked him how the same anti-everything OKC people I remember from my college days there in the 80s did an about-face?... how did a majority of its citizens vote to approve these MAPS projects?

He said that in his opinion, the people who hated the gubmint and hated the crime and hated the "foreigners" and hated the city in general were getting older and older...

Finally, enough of these old hateful, bitter, sticks-in-the-mud and their families put their money where their naysaying mouths were and moved on to "greener pastures" in Mustang, Yukon, Harrah, etc...... after that, the REAL people of OKC could have a reasonable debate, come to consensus, and form a supportable, if imperfect, plan for the city... and it probably didn't hurt when old man Gaylord relinquished the reins of the Daily Oklahoman to a younger, more mellow family member...(better late than never)...

These statements from George Kaiser make more sense than ANYTHING YOU'VE EVER POSTED and reflect the sentiments of many, many Tulsans AND ex-Tulsans...

"We are dissolving into hostile camps," Kaiser said this week. "We need a transformative event to rejuvenate our economy and spirit."

For Kaiser, the river development proposal presents an opportunity to bridge the gap between those people who might consider supporting a government-driven project and those who resent the very idea because "they feel they've been misled on occasion in the past."

"I think it's the INCOG (Indian Nations Council of Governments) plan and I don't have any preference," as long as the basic objectives are met, he said.

The Tennessee Valley Authority, consultants hired by the Kaiser foundation and others, worked with INCOG to address the river's persistent problem locally -- a lack of a steady flow of water.

Chicago city government, like our local Tulsa County Ring, is badly in need of reform and greater oversight and governance of tax spending, regardless of how much you personnally like a particular urban development project.  The FEDS regularly indict and convict Chicago and Cook County government officials and associated Ward cronies.

Maybe our own local U.S. Attorney could wake up and take a look at the Tulsa County Ring sometime.

Lack of Tulsa County Government accountability is one of the key reasons for the failure of the Kaiser River Tax.  Tulsa County Government is a total PATRONAGE system, to whom the victor goes the spoils (and the jobs!).

Tulsa County has not provided an honest monitoring attempt to prevent 50% cost overruns on the BOK Arena, has studiously avoided funding of the Vision 2025-approved low-water dams, and generates a total obfuscation smoke screen by their financial advisor John Piercey,"dear" friend of former County Commissioner Dirty Bob Dick, concerning the projected approximate $200 million+ overcollection of the Vision 2025 sales tax.  

Commissioner Randi Miller's snake-oil salesmen act also did not help.  Mayor Taylor, while an enthusiastic supporter of the Kaiser River Tax, seems to have retained a modicum of dignity after the Pro-River Tax campaign defeat.

I don't think it was a GOP or Democrat issue.  The Pro-Tax side was mostly GOP, because most county offices and most city offices are currently occupied by RINO's, excepting Democrat Mayor Chatty Kathy Taylor.

The NO RIVER TAX side was peopled by True-Believer Republic Assembly-type principled Republicans like Randy Brogden and John Eagleton, and by Yellow-Dog Democrats like Councilors Turner and Henderson Friends-of-the- Common-man.  

It certainly did not seem to be party-oriented, at all.  

Rather the campaign appeared to be Mid-Town Elitists and Southern Hills Republicans vs. Mr. Average Tulsan County Resident.

[RecycleMichael]

I don't think the river vote had anything to do with partisan politics. I think it was all geography.

No precinct further than five miles of the river supported it and almost all of the ones close did.

If you don't see the river or recreate there, you didn't want to spend any money to improve it.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I don't think the river vote had anything to do with partisan politics. I think it was all geography.

No precinct further than five miles of the river supported it and almost all of the ones close did.

If you don't see the river or recreate there, you didn't want to spend any money to improve it.

Except for Bixby south of the river, Sand Springs, and a couple of precincts around 61st & Riverside.  Lower income areas.  

There are some SoTul precincts which are located about five miles or more away from proposed development areas on the river, where it did pass.

That's why I'm of the opinion it's not strictly a proximity issue.  That's the kind of head-in-the-sand thinking which will prevent any other public funding measure from passing on the river.

I really do believe that people in lower income areas looked at the tax as regressive and weren't willing to jump on.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist



You obviously havent met my mom.

10dollar xmas gift, hope you know what I like or need or it will be "regifted", though thats fine, becomes the gift that keeps on giving.

Writing a 100 dollar gift to the Salvation Army. Your deciding to give to them and not some other organization. There has to be some reason you choose to give to them. (I do not give to them because of their stance on some issues and I hope you dont give blindly)

Same as above with the 1 dollar bell ringer. Why not just give that dollar directly to the needy? Why not avoid the "conditional" middle man organization?


12 million dollar check to river parks to improve bike and walking trails. Well having the river parks use that money only for bike and walking trails IS a condition. Plus who knows how they would even use it for bikes and trails, may not be the way you want or think is best. Not just going to give them 12 mill and say, have at it and do whatever you want with it. Who knows what they could come up with in this city. Perhaps more statues?

The first three are three examples of discretionary, not conditional giving.  There are many pots someone can put their "giving" dollars into.  When you drop a dollar in the Starvation Army kettle, you don't attach a note with a pre-paid envelope stating that it must be used to feed homeless people or else they must mail your donation back.

Kaiser's $12mm gift, we could parse words on this all we want.  It's discretionary because he could have given those funds to TU, Gilcrease, Philbrook, St. John's Medical Center, etc.  Yes there is the condition that those funds were for improving the trail system at RP.  Specifying a use for the money is an earmark.  Saying you will take your money back if it's not spent as agreed or some other match is not made is a condition.

Mom comment noted- our parents must know each other.  I have gotten LOTS of conditional gifts from her over the years, she's never given me a painting, antique, or rug- it always seems to be on permanent loan! []

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I don't think the river vote had anything to do with partisan politics. I think it was all geography.

No precinct further than five miles of the river supported it and almost all of the ones close did.

If you don't see the river or recreate there, you didn't want to spend any money to improve it.

Concise conclusion, and I agree with RM (Scarrrrry thought, there!).

[:O]

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

The first three are three examples of discretionary, not conditional giving.  There are many pots someone can put their "giving" dollars into.  When you drop a dollar in the Starvation Army kettle, you don't attach a note with a pre-paid envelope stating that it must be used to feed homeless people or else they must mail your donation back.

Kaiser's $12mm gift, we could parse words on this all we want.  It's discretionary because he could have given those funds to TU, Gilcrease, Philbrook, St. John's Medical Center, etc.  Yes there is the condition that those funds were for improving the trail system at RP.  Specifying a use for the money is an earmark.  Saying you will take your money back if it's not spent as agreed or some other match is not made is a condition.

Mom comment noted- our parents must know each other.  I have gotten LOTS of conditional gifts from her over the years, she's never given me a painting, antique, or rug- it always seems to be on permanent loan! []

Kaiser's gift was discretionary, too.

dis·cre·tion [di-skresh-uhn] Pronunciation Key  
1. the power or right to decide or act according to one's own judgment; freedom of judgment or choice:



hair·split·ting [hair-split-ing]
1. the making of unnecessarily fine distinctions.

tight·wad (tît'wahd')  
n.   Slang
A miser.