Turner: BOK to punish North Tulsans tax stand

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

When I make a charitable contribution to American Red Cross, United Way, Salvation Army, or any of my other favorite charities, I do NOT set any terms or conditions on my gift.

Sure you do.  What do you mean by "favorite" charities?  Is the Anti-Defamation League among them?  When you give to the Red Cross you do so knowing that it will go towards disaster relief and blood drives.  They have a specifically outlined, narrowly focused mission, and you give knowing that they will adhere to that mission.  You choose charities according to your own terms and conditions.

I do NOT practice conditional philanthropy.  

Period.

American Red Cross or Salvation Army can use the contribution for any aspect of their operations.  I impose no terms or conditions.

If I became aware that the money was being misspent, I would find another charity.  

Such as was the case back in 1992 with the national office of United Way's lavish spending by their President William Aramony.  Many people, including me, were justifiably offended, and withheld contributions until reforms were instituted.

I don't know enough about the ADL of B'nai Brith to consider them for a contribution.

[rwarn17588]

F.B., take your rantings and anti-Semitic slurs to the Voice of Tulsa. You'll fit in better there with other dozen or so bigots, misanthropes and nutcases.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by inteller

and he is only one of MANY generous rich men with BALLS that donated without conditions.  before the current crop of cronies Tulsa had good philanthropists.

Inteller,  

If you acted like this on the street, you'd be arrested for aggressive panhandling.  Your last statement is ignorant, and I feel like educating you on this point.  

Every foundation has "conditions"; they all have missions.  They don't just hand out money to anybody that calls them up, "Hello, is the the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation? Where can I get my free Camaro?"

Asking for matching money is normal business practice with grants.  It's akin to forming a business partnership. It's even like a bank asking you to put up equity funds in order to get a loan. It gets rid of the bullsh*tters.

You are trashing a guy for being a smart businessman.  I thought you conservatives appreciated that sort of thing?  Anyways, good luck with that free Trans Am or whatever.

Conditioning giving that it be through school systems, homeless shelters, Habitat For Humanity, drug programs, etc. isn't the same as yanking your funding when matching funds don't materialize.  I'd say that's the exception rather than the rule.

Care to share other recent examples of matching funds between philanthropists which require matching public funding via taxes or otherwise or are you pulling this out of a corner of your brain?

I think we all get that you don't just call up a foundation for personal transportation or housing needs.  That's pretty elementary.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

I do NOT practice conditional philanthropy.  

Period.

Yes, you do.  Exclamation point.

quote:American Red Cross or Salvation Army can use the contribution for any aspect of their operations.

Because you approve of them.  There are other charities to which you do not contribute because you do not like them or agree with their mission.  I have no problem with you giving money under these terms.  

quote:I impose no terms or conditions.

If I became aware that the money was being misspent, I would find another charity.

That's a condition.  Granted, it's a wise condition, but a condition nonetheless.  

quote:Such as was the case back in 1992 with the national office of United Way's lavish spending by their President William Aramony.  Many people, including me, were justifiably offended, and withheld contributions until reforms were instituted.

Yeah, we know.  There are lot of people you don't like.  What's this guy's problem?  You don't like gypsies or something?

quote:I don't know enough about the ADL of B'nai Brith to consider them for a contribution.

You don't give to organizations that you don't know anything about.  Again, those are reasonable terms.

All giving is conditional.  Don't be a hypocrite.  The terms and conditions under which you will give to a cause are every bit as meticulous as Kaiser's, they are just different.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by inteller

and he is only one of MANY generous rich men with BALLS that donated without conditions.  before the current crop of cronies Tulsa had good philanthropists.

Inteller,  

If you acted like this on the street, you'd be arrested for aggressive panhandling.  Your last statement is ignorant, and I feel like educating you on this point.  

Every foundation has "conditions"; they all have missions.  They don't just hand out money to anybody that calls them up, "Hello, is the the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation? Where can I get my free Camaro?"

Asking for matching money is normal business practice with grants.  It's akin to forming a business partnership. It's even like a bank asking you to put up equity funds in order to get a loan. It gets rid of the bullsh*tters.

You are trashing a guy for being a smart businessman.  I thought you conservatives appreciated that sort of thing?  Anyways, good luck with that free Trans Am or whatever.

Conditioning giving that it be through school systems, homeless shelters, Habitat For Humanity, drug programs, etc. isn't the same as yanking your funding when matching funds don't materialize.  I'd say that's the exception rather than the rule.

Care to share other recent examples of matching funds between philanthropists which require matching public funding via taxes or otherwise or are you pulling this out of a corner of your brain?

I think we all get that you don't just call up a foundation for personal transportation or housing needs.  That's pretty elementary.

Examples?  Turn on 89.5 KWGS right this minute.  People offer matching contributions all the time.  For instance, if small donors give  $2,000 before 10 am, so-and-so will match it with another $2,000.  It's very common.

[rwarn17588]

I'm with Chicken Little on this.

To suggest there is no conditional philanthropy is to ignore all the evidence -- and options -- all around you.

Conditional philanthropy allows the giver to provide an incentive for a cause he or she likes. Nothing like injecting a bit of free enterprise into the mix.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

F.B., take your rantings and anti-Semitic slurs to the Voice of Tulsa. You'll fit in better there with other dozen or so bigots, misanthropes and nutcases.

Lighten up.  

In the best tradition of comedians Myron V. Cohen, Don Rickles, Henny Youngman, Alan King, Jerry Lewis, Joey Bishop, and a host of other Jewish comedians who have made careers out of making fun of their religion, their wives, the Catskills, etc., it was only a joke.

Unfortunately my Wink "Smilie" []was deleted by the heavy hand of the Forum Gestapo when he/she edited my comment as Unnecessary.

[]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by inteller

and he is only one of MANY generous rich men with BALLS that donated without conditions.  before the current crop of cronies Tulsa had good philanthropists.

Inteller,  

If you acted like this on the street, you'd be arrested for aggressive panhandling.  Your last statement is ignorant, and I feel like educating you on this point.  

Every foundation has "conditions"; they all have missions.  They don't just hand out money to anybody that calls them up, "Hello, is the the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation? Where can I get my free Camaro?"

Asking for matching money is normal business practice with grants.  It's akin to forming a business partnership. It's even like a bank asking you to put up equity funds in order to get a loan. It gets rid of the bullsh*tters.

You are trashing a guy for being a smart businessman.  I thought you conservatives appreciated that sort of thing?  Anyways, good luck with that free Trans Am or whatever.

Conditioning giving that it be through school systems, homeless shelters, Habitat For Humanity, drug programs, etc. isn't the same as yanking your funding when matching funds don't materialize.  I'd say that's the exception rather than the rule.

Care to share other recent examples of matching funds between philanthropists which require matching public funding via taxes or otherwise or are you pulling this out of a corner of your brain?

I think we all get that you don't just call up a foundation for personal transportation or housing needs.  That's pretty elementary.

Examples?  Turn on 89.5 KWGS right this minute.  People offer matching contributions all the time.  For instance, if small donors give  $2,000 before 10 am, so-and-so will match it with another $2,000.  It's very common.

I think Conan might have a valid point.

Matching a conditional philanthopy with TAX DOLLARS is hardly comparable to NPR and KWGS "matches" between contributors.  Both parties are VOLUNTARILY contributing.

If the Kaiser River Tax had passed, even if I voted against it, I would have been INVOLUNTARILY compelled to support Mr. K's philanthropy with higher sales taxes for seven years.

When do you recall that PRIVATE philanthropy being conditioned on voters raising their own taxes?

I suspect that Mr. K would like to be-head whoever persuaded him into putting his prestige and his good name on the failed River Tax.

If he now went ahead and carried through with the $122 million pledged, I'd be the first to vote to change the name of the Arkansas River to:

The Kaiser River.

[guido911]

Am I hearing this correctly. Is someone actually complaining about a $117 Million charitable gift because such was conditional that the other needed 200 plus million dollars
come from the public.

If I am the Kaisers or any other family with similar megawealth who donate money to make Tulsa a better place to live, I tell that ingrate as well as any other complainer that you can count on not receiving another nickel.

Oh, unless those ingrates are in the habit of making multi-multi million dollar philonthrapic donations, do not even try to compare what you donate into the argument.

Jeez, why can't the vote "No" people on this page be gracious winners.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Am I hearing this correctly. Is someone actually complaining about a $117 Million charitable gift because such was conditional that the other needed 200 plus million dollars
come from the public.

If I am the Kaisers or any other family with similar megawealth who donate money to make Tulsa a better place to live, I tell that ingrate as well as any other complainer that you can count on not receiving another nickel.

Oh, unless those ingrates are in the habit of making multi-multi million dollar philonthrapic donations, do not even try to compare what you donate into the argument.

Jeez, why can't the vote "No" people on this page be gracious winners.

What wonderful public policy you propose:

If any questions are asked, threaten to withhold future contributions.

And, I am very happy to not return again to the recent Kaiser River Tax election.  

However, I do not believe that the Tulsa County Tax Vampires will rest for long.  They've tasted County Sales Taxes with Vision 2025, the Jail Tax, and 4-to-Fix-the-County, and they will be back again shortly with a re-packaged River Tax Ploy, Version 2.0

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Am I hearing this correctly. Is someone actually complaining about a $117 Million charitable gift because such was conditional that the other needed 200 plus million dollars
come from the public.

If I am the Kaisers or any other family with similar megawealth who donate money to make Tulsa a better place to live, I tell that ingrate as well as any other complainer that you can count on not receiving another nickel.

Oh, unless those ingrates are in the habit of making multi-multi million dollar philonthrapic donations, do not even try to compare what you donate into the argument.

Jeez, why can't the vote "No" people on this page be gracious winners.

What wonderful public policy you propose:

If any questions are asked, threaten to withhold future contributions.

And, I am very happy to not return again to the recent Kaiser River Tax election.  

However, I do not believe that the Tulsa County Tax Vampires will rest for long.  They've tasted County Sales Taxes with Vision 2025, the Jail Tax, and 4-to-Fix-the-County, and they will be back again shortly with a re-packaged River Tax Ploy, Version 2.0

You are not asking questions. You are accusing those persons who are voluntarily giving away their own, personal wealth for the benefit of other people of engaging in nefarious and underhanded activity. So stop with the "I am just asking questions" crap. That's an argument "troofers" make.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

F.B., take your rantings and anti-Semitic slurs to the Voice of Tulsa. You'll fit in better there with other dozen or so bigots, misanthropes and nutcases.

Lighten up.  

In the best tradition of comedians Myron V. Cohen, Don Rickles, Henny Youngman, Alan King, Jerry Lewis, Joey Bishop, and a host of other Jewish comedians who have made careers out of making fun of their religion, their wives, the Catskills, etc., it was only a joke.

Unfortunately my Wink "Smilie" []was deleted by the heavy hand of the Forum Gestapo when he/she edited my comment as Unnecessary.

[]

bigot

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Am I hearing this correctly. Is someone actually complaining about a $117 Million charitable gift because such was conditional that the other needed 200 plus million dollars
come from the public.

If I am the Kaisers or any other family with similar megawealth who donate money to make Tulsa a better place to live, I tell that ingrate as well as any other complainer that you can count on not receiving another nickel.

Oh, unless those ingrates are in the habit of making multi-multi million dollar philonthrapic donations, do not even try to compare what you donate into the argument.

Jeez, why can't the vote "No" people on this page be gracious winners.

What wonderful public policy you propose:

If any questions are asked, threaten to withhold future contributions.

And, I am very happy to not return again to the recent Kaiser River Tax election.  

However, I do not believe that the Tulsa County Tax Vampires will rest for long.  They've tasted County Sales Taxes with Vision 2025, the Jail Tax, and 4-to-Fix-the-County, and they will be back again shortly with a re-packaged River Tax Ploy, Version 2.0

You are not asking questions. You are accusing those persons who are voluntarily giving away their own, personal wealth for the benefit of other people of engaging in nefarious and underhanded activity. So stop with the "I am just asking questions" crap. That's an argument "troofers" make.

Actually, the so-called philanthropic contributions, due to their intentional vagueness of how they will be used, could have just as easily been styled "Investments" in For-Profit ventures along the River.

There were NO DETAILS on exactly how the $117 million that Kaiser bundled would actually be spent.  

It may have been invested in residential housing along the river, shopping venues along the river, restaurants along the river......

I think a lot of people ASSUMED that the money would be used for a public purpose, for parks and such.

It may or it may NOT have been used that way.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

F.B., take your rantings and anti-Semitic slurs to the Voice of Tulsa. You'll fit in better there with other dozen or so bigots, misanthropes and nutcases.

Lighten up.  

In the best tradition of comedians Myron V. Cohen, Don Rickles, Henny Youngman, Alan King, Jerry Lewis, Joey Bishop, and a host of other Jewish comedians who have made careers out of making fun of their religion, their wives, the Catskills, etc., it was only a joke.

Unfortunately my Wink "Smilie" []was deleted by the heavy hand of the Forum Gestapo when he/she edited my comment as Unnecessary.

[]

bigot

Am not.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by inteller

and he is only one of MANY generous rich men with BALLS that donated without conditions.  before the current crop of cronies Tulsa had good philanthropists.

Inteller,  

If you acted like this on the street, you'd be arrested for aggressive panhandling.  Your last statement is ignorant, and I feel like educating you on this point.  

Every foundation has "conditions"; they all have missions.  They don't just hand out money to anybody that calls them up, "Hello, is the the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation? Where can I get my free Camaro?"

Asking for matching money is normal business practice with grants.  It's akin to forming a business partnership. It's even like a bank asking you to put up equity funds in order to get a loan. It gets rid of the bullsh*tters.

You are trashing a guy for being a smart businessman.  I thought you conservatives appreciated that sort of thing?  Anyways, good luck with that free Trans Am or whatever.

Conditioning giving that it be through school systems, homeless shelters, Habitat For Humanity, drug programs, etc. isn't the same as yanking your funding when matching funds don't materialize.  I'd say that's the exception rather than the rule.

Care to share other recent examples of matching funds between philanthropists which require matching public funding via taxes or otherwise or are you pulling this out of a corner of your brain?

I think we all get that you don't just call up a foundation for personal transportation or housing needs.  That's pretty elementary.

Examples?  Turn on 89.5 KWGS right this minute.  People offer matching contributions all the time.  For instance, if small donors give  $2,000 before 10 am, so-and-so will match it with another $2,000.  It's very common.

Different type of match.  What you are alluding to is voluntary matching and giving.  If it were similar w/ the river, it would have been:  For every dollar raised through voluntary donations, KFF will match with a 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 donation, etc.

Honestly, had it been brought about in such a manner and the city were managing the project under the auspices of a trust or oversight group, I'd gladly have given $1000 and shut my mouth.

A KWGS or PBS fund-raiser doesn't require the impoundment of sales tax dollars to stimulate the match.