Greenwood: Potential Development

[cannon_fodder]

I hope this development gets some momentum.  That area is ripe for development.  Close enough to downtown, U Tulsa, the Brady, the Blue Dome... they can all feed off each other!  One thing that area REALLY needs is a hotel.  I have friends coming for Oktoberfest and they are staying at the Crowne Plaza because that is the ONLY hotel in town within walking distance of a bar district.

Cherry Street, Brookside?  No hotels!  Argh!

Anyway, hope this goes over well and jump starts development on the N. Side.  Clearly more public money is not going to do any good.  No matter how much Langston University gets...

and Double A, are you suggesting North Tulsa is run down because funding was held up for Langston University?  If only it were that simple.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I hope this development gets some momentum.  That area is ripe for development.  Close enough to downtown, U Tulsa, the Brady, the Blue Dome... they can all feed off each other!  One thing that area REALLY needs is a hotel.  I have friends coming for Oktoberfest and they are staying at the Crowne Plaza because that is the ONLY hotel in town within walking distance of a bar district.

Cherry Street, Brookside?  No hotels!  Argh!

Anyway, hope this goes over well and jump starts development on the N. Side.  Clearly more public money is not going to do any good.  No matter how much Langston University gets...

and Double A, are you suggesting North Tulsa is run down because funding was held up for Langston University?  If only it were that simple.

Government institutionalized neglect and economic segregation in North Tulsa(especially for AA Tulsans) is a fact, not a suggestion.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Government institutionalized neglect and economic segregation in North Tulsa(especially for AA Tulsans) is a fact, not a suggestion.

Except, that's not so much the case now.  Besides the improvements at OSU-Tulsa, the North side picked up TASM, more Airlines jobs, Morton, trails, and I'm not sure what else from Vision 2025.  They got a rebuilt BTW, and a TIF that failed.  Arguably, outside of Downtown, North Tulsa has probably seen more gov't intervention than any other area of town by square mile or by population.

Economic segregation, unfortunately, goes very much hand in hand with gov't intervention.  An area of town that is particularly poor, will get more gov't assistance.  The more direct assistance a gov't gives to a specified area, the poorer it will be.  The poorer an area is, the more likely it is that business will fail or not show up at all.  Changing course requires creativity.

There is also an assistance mentality, where both gov't and grassroots non-gov't organizations are more interested in providing or creating services rather than working towards the construction of a new North Tulsa.  The gov't has thrown quite a bit of cash at the North side, but there seems to be very little creativity from the North side grassroots.  It's almost non-existent.  Chuck Cissel can't do it all by himself.  

Seriously, how creative has the grassroots for North Tulsa been?  All I've heard is mostly complaints.

What is the population of North Tulsa anyway?  It can't be more than about 35K to 50K can it?

[rwarn17588]

It depends what you consider north Tulsa. I looked at a zip code map and deduced that the zip codes of 74106, 74110, 74116, 74115 and 74130 are north Tulsa.

I added the population of those zip codes from 2000 census figures. The total is 63,300.

Tulsa's population at the time was 393,000, according to the census. So north Tulsa represents about 16 percent of Tulsa's population.

[MichaelC]

For me, North Tulsa has always been anything North of Admiral and east of Tisdale.  But, that's just me.  West of Tisdale has always been more "Osage Hills" or Northwest Tulsa.

It's one of those things.  16% considering themselves thoroughly pissed off and separate from the rest is sad, but primarily ignorable.  If they want to be a part of Tulsa, let's talk.  And if they don't, the number is low enough, I'm going to have a hard time caring.

Pissed and objecting to everything, is par for North Tulsa at least politically.  Maybe even with a majority of the population.  But, it's probably not the right direction for North Tulsa.  Not if they want assistance with substantive change.

[perspicuity85]

It would be great if the Greenwood district and Langston U. could help revive the North Tulsa community.  Greenwood was once one of the most successful AA neighborhoods in the country, and should be viewed as an example of success in the face of oppression.  Langston, as a traditionally predominantly AA school, could potentially resonate with the predominant AA population of North Tulsa.  People need a sense of community, and Langston and Greenwood are two great places to start in providing that.  Many people in rough neighborhoods turn to crime and gangs when they don't see any other alternatives or feel any other sense of community.  Langston could really be a community leader in North Tulsa, supporting education and encouraging young people to finish high school and look to the future.  While not necessarily in the heart of North Tulsa, Langston and Greenwood have the potential to greatly benefit the region.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

It would be great if the Greenwood district and Langston U. could help revive the North Tulsa community.  Greenwood was once one of the most successful AA neighborhoods in the country, and should be viewed as an example of success in the face of oppression.  Langston, as a traditionally predominantly AA school, could potentially resonate with the predominant AA population of North Tulsa.  People need a sense of community, and Langston and Greenwood are two great places to start in providing that.  Many people in rough neighborhoods turn to crime and gangs when they don't see any other alternatives or feel any other sense of community.  Langston could really be a community leader in North Tulsa, supporting education and encouraging young people to finish high school and look to the future.  While not necessarily in the heart of North Tulsa, Langston and Greenwood have the potential to greatly benefit the region.

I agree. One of the big "points" I learned as a psych major was the "power of expectations and examples". A lack of positive expectation and examples is basically an expectation and example to fail. Having a thriving Langston and Greenwood district could serve as positive expectations and examples from the community. It seems like many of the more "well to do" in the black community often move south.  

I remember one story that was told pertaining to two groups of high school students. One a poor group another middle class. They both did pranks and petty crimes, (though often of different types owing to their economic status). However when it came time to graduate and go to college. There was a large amount of expectation for the middle class kids to go to college while the poor kids did not have that expectation and many didnt go on to college. There was an expectation to put aside the antics of high school and grow up and go to college for the middle class, yet the poorer kids "stayed on the streets". Even peer pressure and the expectations set up there play a large roll.  (there was a lot more to the story, was quite interesting)

Interesting article in the news recently that showed that even with similar income levels and education levels, blacks were much less likely than whites to invest in 401ks. There doesnt seem to be a mindset or attitude for taking money now and investing it for the future. Over all this continually deprives that group of a source of income and wealth generation.

[cannon_fodder]

I don't get the economic segregation.  Is the government telling people that they have to live there or that they can not get jobs outside their area?

I've NEVER, in my whole life - had a job in my neighborhood.  Never within 5 miles of my home.  Certainly the residents of North Tulsa are no different and can drive/bus/bike to their jobs as well.

Why does it matter if a new job is created downtown or in North Tulsa?  I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really don't get it.

[RecycleMichael]

Job location helps keep related businesses vibrant. It would be difficult to keep open a restaurant that is only open for dinner and support industries such as office supply retailers are often non-existent in many parts of a community.

I also think that creating employment near where the employees live has many other positives like reducing vehicle miles driven. Less wear on roads, less pollution, etc.

[cannon_fodder]

i agree with those points RM.  But Jenks seems to be doing fine, how many "new jobs" have been brought to Jenks compared to residents?  Or BA.   Or Owasso for goodness sake!

Having an office nearby is not the harbinger of a great neighborhood.  It must be something else that is at fault and not the lack of office jobs.  Not too mention, I'm fail to see how that's the cities fault.

[MichaelC]

Economic segregation is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than an institution.  Obviously, it used to be institutionalized, it's closely related to geography.

If you're in a locale where there are a lot of different apartment complexes, you get a lot of different types of people, a lot of different types of income, and apartments are forced to compete on a massive level, odds are greater that one will go THA.  If one goes THA, the odds that a second one will go THA increase dramatically.  Then the surrounding condos and housing deteriorate, and become substantially low cost:  Hence, 61st and Peoria.

The city hasn't does anything particularly wrong at 61st and Peoria, it's just fulfilling a need.  The city was needed, no one else could fill that spot, besides absolute blight you get THA.  From the outside, it could appear to be a tool of segregation, even though it's more about geography and the economics that already exist there.  Even though it's a small pocket, the difference between 61st and Peoria and 61st and Lewis is considerable.  Spread that out over maybe 20 square miles, and you've got North Tulsa.

[TheArtist]

The trick is, what do you do to remedy these things? There seems to be no simple answer thats for sure. Even if you get economic development in an area you can end up simply displacing the poor and shuffling them to another area as the area they were in becomes too expensive. I read another study just a while back that showed that if you took poor, poorly performing students and placed them in wealthier high performing schools and moved the parents as well to a better area, that those poor students actually didnt really do any better. The study found that those students and parents took their attitudes about education,  work, etc with them. Some teachers noted that those students actually needed specific help and that in the new school they did not receive the specific type of help they needed because that was not a concern or what those schools were geared towards addressing.

[MichaelC]

There really has to be a grassroots effort.  All the city can do is assist in maintaining a reasonable status quo, keep the streets reasonably maintained, provide a reasonable amount of services.  You can't really impose a life style or values or educational level on any specific group or category of people.  It's impossible.

In North Tulsa, the more vocal groups seem to be churches.  No offense to churches, but there are people that will never submit to an imposed moral authority, or church.  And churches are equipped to handle some things, but not everything.  It takes the more "secular" inventive side to get certain things done.  If you want to change the morality, it can't be simply imposed on all people by some group or authority.  But, if people see development and creativity and variety popping up, if North Tulsa becomes a good place to live, people will adjust their own values.

You mentioned that "run" deal on the last page, why hasn't somebody in North Tulsa kicked something like that off?  It doesn't take that much, but the churches aren't really equipped for it and no one else has stepped up.  There would likely be huge support from South Tulsa, if someone just got the ball rolling and started talking to people.

But it all goes back to creativity and the grassroots.  If they don't exist, nothing changes.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder



I've NEVER, in my whole life - had a job in my neighborhood.  Never within 5 miles of my home.  Certainly the residents of North Tulsa are no different and can drive/bus/bike to their jobs as well.

Why does it matter if a new job is created downtown or in North Tulsa?  I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really don't get it.

Certainly all quality job growth in the metro area has the potential to benefit the entire metro area, but the fact is, communities with a mix of uses are more sustainable.  If there are jobs in North Tulsa, the region has a greater chance of sustaining itself over time.  Many regions within cities that are devoted to one single purpose often decay over time as existing home owners or businesses look for new space to expand or as infrastructure becomes obsolete.  Mixed use communities are more sustainable because they are more balanced, and provide more reasons for continuous reinvestment into the community.  It's similar to the benefit of having a diverse investment portfolio- you don't want to have to throw out an entire bushel because of one bad apple.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder



I've NEVER, in my whole life - had a job in my neighborhood.  Never within 5 miles of my home.  Certainly the residents of North Tulsa are no different and can drive/bus/bike to their jobs as well.

Why does it matter if a new job is created downtown or in North Tulsa?  I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really don't get it.

Certainly all quality job growth in the metro area has the potential to benefit the entire metro area, but the fact is, communities with a mix of uses are more sustainable.  If there are jobs in North Tulsa, the region has a greater chance of sustaining itself over time.  Many regions within cities that are devoted to one single purpose often decay over time as existing home owners or businesses look for new space to expand or as infrastructure becomes obsolete.  Mixed use communities are more sustainable because they are more balanced, and provide more reasons for continuous reinvestment into the community.  It's similar to the benefit of having a diverse investment portfolio- you don't want to have to throw out an entire bushel because of one bad apple.

Absolutely, mixed use areas can be better. But we can see examples of "non mixed use" areas that are doing better and mixed use areas that become just as bad economically. Nobody is stopping mixed use from happening in the north side. Except for the criminals. Development is actually being encouraged with tiff districts, beautification efforts, etc. When the pizza delivery guys wont even go there its hard to convince other businesses to open there. Why bother if you have better demographics in another area of town. Its a matter of choice for businesses and where you are going to put your risk. You look around and decide, Where am I most likely to make the most money? Which area of town, or suburb, will most likely deliver the best return on the investment I can afford?