Greenwood: Potential Development

[MichaelC]

But North Tulsa is lined with jobs.  There are a lot of industrial jobs and commercial jobs around the Admiral and Pine corridors, there are the Airlines and all that entails, and all the side businesses and industries around the Airlines, there's the Zoo, Cherokee Industrial Complex, Osage Casino, and there's Downtown right off the bow of North Tulsa...It's not  "sustainable", or "mixed use", but's it's not much different from South Tulsa (except that there's probably a higher concentration of industrial).  It still, for the most part, requires transportation.

If they had that key component of "mixed use" to their argument, they might have a point.  But, just like today, you'd still have to find someone willing to take up the commercial aspect, and no one seems to be making that case anyway.  Henderson, recently, stated he didn't know what "sustainable" means, and Turner's an idiot.  They both complain, that's almost all that they do.  It's a one pony show.  "We need more jobs, throw more cops at us, throw more money us, we hate you for not giving us more South Tulsa", it's a mindset that needs to be overcome.  

If they put themselves where their mouths are, they'd start trying to secede from Tulsa.  But they know damn well who pays the bills there.  Hint: it's not them.

[perspicuity85]

^^
I agree with you guys.  I did not mean to imply that a mixed-use community is automatically screened from blight or that is able to necessarily overcome years of economic segregation, as the north side has.  I think some of the keys to improving North Tulsa are: greater access to education, greater access to affordable health care, and an overall sense of community.  Langston U. Tulsa CC, and Tulsa Tech Ctr should be keys in providing educational access, while clinics such as the Morton Health Ctr. can greatly improve access to health care.  Development of Greenwood and possibly even Mohawk Park's expansion should be targets for community cultural revivals.  The mixed-use rule of thumb should be utilized whenever possible, perhaps a few years into the future if the area becomes safer for walkability.  The Greenwood District is a good place to start because of its proximity to Downtown and past success.

[MichaelC]

I may be coming off as a little harsh, but IMO, North Tulsa is in need of a serious attitude adjustment.  I don't mind throwing services into the area, that area needs them.  But shutting everything down just because North Tulsa wants a handout...REALITY CHECK...North Tulsa gets more than it's fair share from this city.

Where are the non-profits, where are the neighborhood associations?  When is enough, enough?  You want an ally, try asking.  I'm certain tons of people would jump on board.

When is North Tulsa going to contribute to the success of North Tulsa?  Thus far all indications are that they might just wait it out until city services and market forces finally improve the place.  If that's the plan, good luck with that, I have other things to do besides care.

I would really like to see someone in North Tulsa step up and start bringing minds together.

[TeeDub]

NO!

Don't they realize they can't spur private development without the need for tax dollars?   Someone needs to tell them these silly, progressive ideas of theirs don't make any sense.


Congrats Greenwood.   If you build it, I will patronize it and support it with my dollars willingly.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

^^
I agree with you guys.  I did not mean to imply that a mixed-use community is automatically screened from blight or that is able to necessarily overcome years of economic segregation, as the north side has.  I think some of the keys to improving North Tulsa are: greater access to education, greater access to affordable health care, and an overall sense of community.  Langston U. Tulsa CC, and Tulsa Tech Ctr should be keys in providing educational access, while clinics such as the Morton Health Ctr. can greatly improve access to health care.  Development of Greenwood and possibly even Mohawk Park's expansion should be targets for community cultural revivals.  The mixed-use rule of thumb should be utilized whenever possible, perhaps a few years into the future if the area becomes safer for walkability.  The Greenwood District is a good place to start because of its proximity to Downtown and past success.

You are pointing to assets north Tulsa already enjoys and utilizes, the only one you didn't mention was upgrading public housing.  Yet none of it seems to make a difference in crime and under-performing schools.  

None of that will curb crime and make people take pride in their area until their individual paradigms change and tell them to support their kids in finishing school, pursue higher ed opportunities (TCC's tuition gift is wonderful) get and keep a job, and realize drugs, theft, and gang lifestyle are a dead-end.  That's a family and spiritual issue.  Infrastructure, clinics, schools, new grocery stores, better streets, better housing doesn't cure that.

We can throw all sorts of assets at a community, but it's like building a brand-new prison in McAlester.  Just because you have new facilities and a wide range of intervention/re-hab programs, unless there is a shift in personal paradigms, you can't change an individual or groups of individual's behavior.

Roscoe Turner and Jack Henderson aren't spiritual leaders, they are city counselors- it's really not within their job description to be preachers.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Roscoe Turner and Jack Henderson aren't spiritual leaders, they are city counselors- it's really not within their job description to be preachers.

It is in their job description to pander, and to be liked by their constituents.

Turner and Henderson will NOT lead North Tulsa out of this hole, they pander to the hole.  Besides being incompetent, they're incapable.  And very little that they say, should be taken seriously.  North Tulsa will change with grassroots effort, or continue on it's slow and steady path to wherever it's going.

[carltonplace]

Touchy subject, but it seems like alot of the business that do thrive there serve to perpetuate the problem. Payday loan shops, plasma and blood banks, pawn shops (not to mention a near by casino). I agree with MC that the only way for the neighborhood to prosper is for the neighbors to take it back, but I disagree that there is nobody doing that. There is just no direction or cohesion.

[MichaelC]

I'm on the same page.  It's all localized.  North Tulsa has some great assets, and some really solid Neighborhood Associations, just not enough.  The Churches seem to be doing more or less all they can do.  There's no overriding "coming together", no single defensible idea of what needs to change.  There's no big picture.  No plan.  

Everything you hear out of the North-side requires outside intervention, which I don't oppose.  I'm all for pitching in and doing a good job for North Tulsa, it needs to be a good idea instead of follow the same well traveled paths.  

Someone needs to get on a page, any page.  Something besides "it's terrible here, and it's all your fault."  Bring people together, often, and figure this out.

[Conan71]

It's pretty hillarious, a bunch of ostensibly white south Tulsa (and otherwise non-residents of NoTul) males discussing the root of problems on the north side, but I digress.

The one thing I do disagree with most is the mind-set that it's "the man holding us down" or "we aren't getting ours".  That is the most self-defeatist attitude which can be taken on the north side.  

We do have social programs which seem to only increase dependence instead of encouraging independence and self-reliance to improve one's own quality of life.

[MichaelC]

It's that thing that makes it hilarious to some, that keeps most of Tulsa out of North Tulsa.  I'd like to see somebody stand up, but it can't be me.  I'm in Midtown, a white guy, and no one would take me seriously.  On the other hand, if a local North Tulsan got this thing kicked off, I might be able to slide in the back door.  Someone needs to step up.

I'm not opposed to services, and they aren't exclusive to North Tulsa.  And they aren't the problem per se, their intense existence in the area is more symptomatic.  There's something else going on here, and it needs to be addressed.

[Conan71]

Ah yes, but then Henderson and Turner, as community leaders, are mocked instead of being taken seriously.  Just like many black community leaders in all parts of the country.  We say they are idiots because we don't agree with their positions?  Maybe the problem is we  really don't understand.

It's pretty hard for me to impune those guys when I know zilch about their upbringing nor much more than andecdotal stories about their community.

FWIW- I've heard that a majority of the people who vote in Roscoe's district are white, to the tune of about 65% to 70%.  So I don't think he speaks just for black Tulsans.

[MichaelC]

He's one the "it's sucks and it's your fault crowd."  That's all I need to know.  I haven't seen Turner make a thoughtful decision, he's always pandering to whatever group will keep North Tulsa pissed.

Who said anything "black" Tulsa anyway?  Does it have to be a race issue?

[TheArtist]

I remember reading in the paper after TCC offered its free tuition how someone at TCC was a bit disheartened that most of the people applying for it were dispraportionally in South Tulsa. They were hoping more in North Tulsa would apply.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Ah yes, but then Henderson and Turner, as community leaders, are mocked instead of being taken seriously.  Just like many black community leaders in all parts of the country.  We say they are idiots because we don't agree with their positions?  Maybe the problem is we  really don't understand.

It's pretty hard for me to impune those guys when I know zilch about their upbringing nor much more than andecdotal stories about their community.

FWIW- I've heard that a majority of the people who vote in Roscoe's district are white, to the tune of about 65% to 70%.  So I don't think he speaks just for black Tulsans.

Judy Eason Mcintyre backed the plan.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

It's pretty hillarious, a bunch of ostensibly white south Tulsa (and otherwise non-residents of NoTul) males discussing the root of problems on the north side, but I digress.

They need a holiday in Cambodia.