More allegations against the Roberts

[cannon_fodder]

My favorite thing was the accusation that they had a 2000sq. ft. closet, in response on Larry King Mrs. Roberts said her closet "isnt even 600 Sq. Feet."  Oh thank god, I was afraid they had lost touch and were not living a humble life.  []

Many of the allegations are probably not criminal, its the hypocritical nature that I chuckle at.  For Jesus sake I need another Versachi (sp? I dont even know how to spell it...) dress!  Now, add that a charity is buying such items and you can get fraud or tax evasion.  

BUT, anyone can make an accusation.  Lets see how it pans out.  If there was a rapid move to shred evidence it certainly will only work against them.  If it was standard operation procedure, then its no big deal.  Similarly with all of the new accusations.  

Surely this is an interesting show to watch though!

[T-Town Now]

What bugs me the most is the hypocrisy.

OK, so God wants them to live well. That's great. But can't Lindsay get around town in something other than a red Mercedes Convertible and a white Lexus SUV? Wouldn't a Chrysler Town & Country minivan do the same? What the heck, she could order a power sunroof if she wants to feel the wind in her hair and sun on her face. (Actually, Lindsay, from the looks of your hair, you should probably keep the sunroof closed...)

Couldn't a 2,500 square foot home protect the Roberts family as well as the monstrosity they have now?

Wouldn't it do more good to cut the clothing budget and send the money saved somewhere where it could really do some good? What the heck, Dillard's has nice clothes, and you can get them on sale most of the time.

I'm pretty sure God didn't tell Lindsay she needed a red Mercedes. They are spending money on themselves that could/should be spent fixing that dilapidated campus, or feeding the poor, or giving scholarships to the needy.

[cannon_fodder]

God told me we should stop discussing this and move on.  Lets see what transpires as the court date approaches.  And send c_f a dollar.

[RecycleMichael]

Money is the route of all evil.

Send $9.95 for more information.

[Conan71]

Two questions I've got:

What is the relevance of the salacious details in the suit filing?  This is about wrongful termination, these plaintiff's are not seeking damages due to these other actions, just for wrongful termination.  Sounds like Gary Richardson figured out a way to legally black-mail ORU.

Secondly:

Underage male running around w/ Lindsey Roberts.  I'm not saying I was a teenage Cassanova, but I could have done a LOT better than that when I was underage.  Eeeeewwww!

[kongsuni]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Money is the route of all evil.

Send $9.95 for more information.

That's not true. Jesus says to make friends with mammon  (aka money).. It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Having money is not a bad thing, knowing how to make money work for you is not a bad thing.. Abraham was rich, Isaac was rich, Jacob, Joseph & David were rich.- And they were royalty on top of that. Solomon was rich (and royal).. There were quite a few extremely wealthy people in the bible.

As for the case on the Robert's.. I don't really know much about it & I don't care to sit there & judge them, when I know nothing about this situation..

1.) I don't watch TV (it stresses me out & makes me break out in hives & raises my blood pressure & etc- too much drama & bad stuff on there all the time, never anything good. It's either sex, drugs, murder, alcohol, T&A, cursing or bad news- the news especially stresses me out, so no thanks, I don't have time for that garbage in my life)..

2.) I used to have equestrian lessons with the Robert's girls. All 3 of the girls seemed really sweet & they never said or did anything bad to anyone. Since I knew them, I also knew Lindsay Robert's, because she was always there with her girls. It's really surprising to hear all this stuff, because she just didn't seem like that kind of person. She knew me on a first-name basis & was always giving people stuff & helping people with things. She was never mean or arrogant with anyone. So forgive me, but I'm reluctant to believe everything I hear/see on TV, because I've actually spent time with that person & that family. How about you guys? (and no, I'm not rich or anything.)

3.) How many of you have had premarital sex or had sex outside of your marriage or relationship?.. How many of you have spent money on stupid things that you don't really need? How many of you have made mistakes?

Let's go through this & think of how much you' screw up on a daily basis, shall we?...

Exodus 20:2–17    

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

- Let's see here. We all screw this one up. Why? Lots of reasons. Anything can become your god. Whatever you value more than God is your god. Money, cars, wife / husband / boyfriend / girlfriend / family / friends / music / sex / etc...

Not to mention Deuteronomy 23:13 - "And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth."

Everyday we say the names of other gods. The days of our weeks, the names of the months, our holidays & etc - all Pagan - all come from names of other gods.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Excuse me, but what is a cross? Doesn't it usually come from wood or metal?.. What about those fish symbols? How about the dove? What about the "star of David"?... All sound like idols/symbols to me. Do you even know where the cross comes from? It's a Babylonian symbol of the Tau. As for the fish, it's symbolic of the fish-god, Dagon..

Constantine adapted most of the abominations surrounding the worship of the sun god into what is now modern Christianity. Even the sign of Mithra—the Babylonian Tau (or cross of Tammuz) – decorated the banners of the Roman legions a hundred years before the birth of Y'shua. Jews were crucified by the thousands on the cross of Mithra in the city streets of Jerusalem. They were crucified as a sacrifice to the Roman sun god. This is the emblem that Constantine chose to designate his new religion, the same emblem that decorated Roman battle banners for four centuries of conquests.

As for Constantine, he was a sun-worshipper til the day he died. He had "Sol Invictus" on his coins- which meant "Unconquered Sun" Sol Invictus being short for "Deus Sol Invictus" which meant, Unconquered Sun-God.

As for Dagon, the fish-god.. Philistine god of the sea.. The most humorous link I can give for that would be: http://www.xanga.com/Babylon_The_Great/506472225/item.html

You want more info? Google dagon the fish god. Tons of stuff comes up.

How's that for hypocrisy?..

I could go on & on & on about "Idols" used in "Christianity".. But I'll just list some of them.

Christmas wreaths, Christmas trees, Mistletoe, Santa Claus, Reindeer, Easter eggs, Easter bunny, Easter baskets, Easter bonnets, Crosses, the ichthys (also symbolic of dagon, the fish-god- and I see people rolling around town with those plastered all over their cars & whatnot- NICE!!!).. Even "Saint Patrick's day" has pagan idols... May day- that poll that's wrapped with ribbons.. There's so many pagan idols & gods brought into the church that it's ridiculous. People do idol worship on a daily basis & don't even realize it or think twice about it.

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

People bow down to Christmas trees all the time. To get their presents.. Which comes from the pagan festival of Saturnalia, where there's big feasts/banquets & gift-giving.. Why is Christmas December 25? Because it's the winter solstice and the birthday of Tammuz aka Nimrod / Amun-Ra / Odin / Aries / Ares / Bacchus / Dionysus / Eros / Hephaestus / Hermes / Pluto / Hades / Poseidon / Zeus / Kronos / Mars / Cupid / Vulcan / Mercury / Neptune / Jupiter / Saturn / Samhain / Dagon / etc.. This is also where you get "Lent" from.. Tammuz was killed when he was 40 by a boar, so people wept & gave things up a day for every year that he was alive, which was 40. This is also why most people eat an "Easter Ham" - because you're eating the thing that killed Tammuz. (Eating pig meat is certainly not something the bible tells you to do, it's not Kosher!)

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

All "Christians" do this, almost on a daily basis!!! It's misuse of God's name to sit there & go around preaching at people, telling them they're going to hell, especially when they, themselves don't even understand what "Hell" really is.. Modern Christian idea of hell comes from Hades, which is a pagan thing. I won't go into talking about Hell, because it's quite a lengthy discussion, but it's not what you probably think it is. It's not even meant for human beings (because human beings are not immortal & neither are their souls- if that were the case, we wouldn't need Jesus to give us immortality as one of his gifts upon returning to Earth)

My point is that cursing is not the only way you can misuse the name of God. You misuse it by falsely representing him, and doing things in his name that are not of him. People do that every single day.

Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work.  But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

Do you even know when the sabbath is? It's not on SUNday... SUNday is actually one of Constantine's many changes to "Christianity", which has basically just become candy-coated paganism.. Sabbath is Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. In the bible the days begin when the sun sets, not when it rises. So if you're worshiping on SUNday, the day the sun worshipers worship their god- the sun.. How are you keeping God's sabbath that he commanded you to keep, NOT "asked" or "suggested" you to keep it, but flat out told you that you HAD to keep it?... How many of you make other people work on the sabbath?.. You go out to eat, which means people have to cook for you, they have to clean up after you, they have to wait on you, etc.. What about going to get gas? Someone's got to work that gas pump. Using your cell phone? Someone's got to monitor it & make sure you don't lose your signal. That's why Jews don't do anything on the sabbath. They prepare all their meals in advance & just chill out at home & spend time with eachother & talk about God- That's what sabbath is!

Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

How many of you have disrespected your parents? How about those of you that allow your children to disrespect you?.. By allowing that, you're cutting your children's lives short. By being disrespectful, you're cutting down the length of your own life. People rarely teach you the full commandment on that one. Most kids just roll their eyes when you say that they have to respect their parents, but what they don't realize is that their very existence and length of their life depends on it.. There's a reason you're supposed to respect your elders & it's not simply because it's the polite thing to do.

You shall not murder.

I don't think I need much of an explanation on this one. I'm sure most sane people would agree that murdering people is bad. However, when Jesus came, he brought a whole new meaning to this. He didn't make things easier by making things spiritual.. He made them harder. Now whenever you get ticked off & you think about how much you'd like to stab that guy at work, or that guy that cut you off when you were driving.. You've just committed murder in a spiritual sense. People do that everyday without thinking or even realizing it.

You shall not commit adultery.

Adultery is a 2 way street. People commit adultery all the time- they cheat on God with other gods. They cheat on their spouses spiritually and physically. If you lust after super models or hunky guys & you're married, that's committing adultery spiritually.

You shall not steal.

How many people have stolen stuff?.. How many people have even thought of stealing stuff?...

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

Oh, you mean like what we're doing with the Robert's family?.. Or the Johnson's down the street? Or that chick at work or the guy in school?.. Hmmm... Most people don't even think Gossip is a sin, but when you gossip, what are you doing?- Bearing false witness against someone.

You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

How many people have done that?...


So.. Unless you've never broken any single one of these commandments, I don't think you have the right to open your big mouth about how anyone else is wrong in what they're doing.. I also don't see what business it is of yours/mine. Why stick our noses in other people's business, when there's so much wrong with us that needs to be fixed? We shouldn't have the time to sit there & gossip about people, because we should be working on fixing our own faults, which there is obviously no shortage of.

Just to clarify, when I say "you" and "people" I'm not saying YOU personally, I'm referring to "you" as a people and myself as well. I've committed most, if not all of those sins myself, in some form or another. Not to mention that I've done the 7 things that God hates.. (Proverbs 6:16-19)

These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (10 commandments rehashed)..

~ Kongsuni

[waterboy]

I'm of the wait and see persuasion. He is afflicted with the same disorders that most people in power are subject to. But what possessed you to obsess with this topic? Are you going to save us all? Are you an ORU student who has lost contact with the real world and is dedicated to being "in the world" but no longer "of the world"? I tire of the sanctimonious people who aren't polluted with TV and never fail to mention it in conversation. Yeah, disengaging from the world is the answer. Bury yourself in religion and evangelize. Are you rationalizing the Robert's alleged behaviors because you know them personally and never saw their off screen behaviors? Its just not clear.

I had a good friend who was professional, had wonderful manners, was raising a fine family, had tons of money, was raised in the church and lived in a gorgeous home in the burbs. Helpful to anyone and generous as well with his money. He was also a child molester. Should he also get the benefit of your rationalizations? Its okay, cause we're all sinful?

I got half way through and felt like dozing off (conditioned response from years of sermons at more formal occassions). Symbols? Hey, I used to carry a real live rabbits foot key chain when I was in grade school. How's that for misguided symbolism. All the kids did it even though we dearly loved rabbits, and it never occurred to us that real rabbits died for our fashion statement. Had we realized that and continued the practice then yeah, it would have said something about our values.

So humans suck. Our contrivances, hypocrisies and our propensity to show a lack of historical context to symbolism...suck. If we just paid more attention to 1000 year old dieties and turned off contemporary societal distractions like TV and movies, we could what...suck a little less?

Forgive me, but isn't your post just like the Harper Valley PTA song only more cerebral?

[restored2x]

quote:Originally posted by kongsuni

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Money is the route of all evil.

Send $9.95 for more information.

That's not true. Jesus says to make friends with mammon  (aka money).. It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Having money is not a bad thing, knowing how to make money work for you is not a bad thing.. Abraham was rich, Isaac was rich, Jacob, Joseph & David were rich.- And they were royalty on top of that. Solomon was rich (and royal).. There were quite a few extremely wealthy people in the bible.

As for the case on the Robert's.. I don't really know much about it & I don't care to sit there & judge them, when I know nothing about this situation..

1.) I don't watch TV (it stresses me out & makes me break out in hives & raises my blood pressure & etc- too much drama & bad stuff on there all the time, never anything good. It's either sex, drugs, murder, alcohol, T&A, cursing or bad news- the news especially stresses me out, so no thanks, I don't have time for that garbage in my life)..

2.) I used to have equestrian lessons with the Robert's girls. All 3 of the girls seemed really sweet & they never said or did anything bad to anyone. Since I knew them, I also knew Lindsay Robert's, because she was always there with her girls. It's really surprising to hear all this stuff, because she just didn't seem like that kind of person. She knew me on a first-name basis & was always giving people stuff & helping people with things. She was never mean or arrogant with anyone. So forgive me, but I'm reluctant to believe everything I hear/see on TV, because I've actually spent time with that person & that family. How about you guys? (and no, I'm not rich or anything.)

3.) How many of you have had premarital sex or had sex outside of your marriage or relationship?.. How many of you have spent money on stupid things that you don't really need? How many of you have made mistakes?

Let's go through this & think of how much you' screw up on a daily basis, shall we?...

Exodus 20:2–17    

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

- Let's see here. We all screw this one up. Why? Lots of reasons. Anything can become your god. Whatever you value more than God is your god. Money, cars, wife / husband / boyfriend / girlfriend / family / friends / music / sex / etc...

Not to mention Deuteronomy 23:13 - "And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth."

Everyday we say the names of other gods. The days of our weeks, the names of the months, our holidays & etc - all Pagan - all come from names of other gods.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Excuse me, but what is a cross? Doesn't it usually come from wood or metal?.. What about those fish symbols? How about the dove? What about the "star of David"?... All sound like idols/symbols to me. Do you even know where the cross comes from? It's a Babylonian symbol of the Tau. As for the fish, it's symbolic of the fish-god, Dagon..

Constantine adapted most of the abominations surrounding the worship of the sun god into what is now modern Christianity. Even the sign of Mithra—the Babylonian Tau (or cross of Tammuz) – decorated the banners of the Roman legions a hundred years before the birth of Y'shua. Jews were crucified by the thousands on the cross of Mithra in the city streets of Jerusalem. They were crucified as a sacrifice to the Roman sun god. This is the emblem that Constantine chose to designate his new religion, the same emblem that decorated Roman battle banners for four centuries of conquests.

As for Constantine, he was a sun-worshipper til the day he died. He had "Sol Invictus" on his coins- which meant "Unconquered Sun" Sol Invictus being short for "Deus Sol Invictus" which meant, Unconquered Sun-God.

As for Dagon, the fish-god.. Philistine god of the sea.. The most humorous link I can give for that would be: http://www.xanga.com/Babylon_The_Great/506472225/item.html

You want more info? Google dagon the fish god. Tons of stuff comes up.

How's that for hypocrisy?..

I could go on & on & on about "Idols" used in "Christianity".. But I'll just list some of them.

Christmas wreaths, Christmas trees, Mistletoe, Santa Claus, Reindeer, Easter eggs, Easter bunny, Easter baskets, Easter bonnets, Crosses, the ichthys (also symbolic of dagon, the fish-god- and I see people rolling around town with those plastered all over their cars & whatnot- NICE!!!).. Even "Saint Patrick's day" has pagan idols... May day- that poll that's wrapped with ribbons.. There's so many pagan idols & gods brought into the church that it's ridiculous. People do idol worship on a daily basis & don't even realize it or think twice about it.

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

People bow down to Christmas trees all the time. To get their presents.. Which comes from the pagan festival of Saturnalia, where there's big feasts/banquets & gift-giving.. Why is Christmas December 25? Because it's the winter solstice and the birthday of Tammuz aka Nimrod / Amun-Ra / Odin / Aries / Ares / Bacchus / Dionysus / Eros / Hephaestus / Hermes / Pluto / Hades / Poseidon / Zeus / Kronos / Mars / Cupid / Vulcan / Mercury / Neptune / Jupiter / Saturn / Samhain / Dagon / etc.. This is also where you get "Lent" from.. Tammuz was killed when he was 40 by a boar, so people wept & gave things up a day for every year that he was alive, which was 40. This is also why most people eat an "Easter Ham" - because you're eating the thing that killed Tammuz. (Eating pig meat is certainly not something the bible tells you to do, it's not Kosher!)

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

All "Christians" do this, almost on a daily basis!!! It's misuse of God's name to sit there & go around preaching at people, telling them they're going to hell, especially when they, themselves don't even understand what "Hell" really is.. Modern Christian idea of hell comes from Hades, which is a pagan thing. I won't go into talking about Hell, because it's quite a lengthy discussion, but it's not what you probably think it is. It's not even meant for human beings (because human beings are not immortal & neither are their souls- if that were the case, we wouldn't need Jesus to give us immortality as one of his gifts upon returning to Earth)

My point is that cursing is not the only way you can misuse the name of God. You misuse it by falsely representing him, and doing things in his name that are not of him. People do that every single day.

Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work.  But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

Do you even know when the sabbath is? It's not on SUNday... SUNday is actually one of Constantine's many changes to "Christianity", which has basically just become candy-coated paganism.. Sabbath is Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. In the bible the days begin when the sun sets, not when it rises. So if you're worshiping on SUNday, the day the sun worshipers worship their god- the sun.. How are you keeping God's sabbath that he commanded you to keep, NOT "asked" or "suggested" you to keep it, but flat out told you that you HAD to keep it?... How many of you make other people work on the sabbath?.. You go out to eat, which means people have to cook for you, they have to clean up after you, they have to wait on you, etc.. What about going to get gas? Someone's got to work that gas pump. Using your cell phone? Someone's got to monitor it & make sure you don't lose your signal. That's why Jews don't do anything on the sabbath. They prepare all their meals in advance & just chill out at home & spend time with eachother & talk about God- That's what sabbath is!

Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

How many of you have disrespected your parents? How about those of you that allow your children to disrespect you?.. By allowing that, you're cutting your children's lives short. By being disrespectful, you're cutting down the length of your own life. People rarely teach you the full commandment on that one. Most kids just roll their eyes when you say that they have to respect their parents, but what they don't realize is that their very existence and length of their life depends on it.. There's a reason you're supposed to respect your elders & it's not simply because it's the polite thing to do.

You shall not murder.

I don't think I need much of an explanation on this one. I'm sure most sane people would agree that murdering people is bad. However, when Jesus came, he brought a whole new meaning to this. He didn't make things easier by making things spiritual.. He made them harder. Now whenever you get ticked off & you think about how much you'd like to stab that guy at work, or that guy that cut you off when you were driving.. You've just committed murder in a spiritual sense. People do that everyday without thinking or even realizing it.

You shall not commit adultery.

Adultery is a 2 way street. People commit adultery all the time- they cheat on God with other gods. They cheat on their spouses spiritually and physically. If you lust after super models or hunky guys & you're married, that's committing adultery spiritually.

You shall not steal.

How many people have stolen stuff?.. How many people have even thought of stealing stuff?...

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

Oh, you mean like what we're doing with the Robert's family?.. Or the Johnson's down the street? Or that chick at work or the guy in school?.. Hmmm... Most people don't even think Gossip is a sin, but when you gossip, what are you doing?- Bearing false witness against someone.

You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

How many people have done that?...


So.. Unless you've never broken any single one of these commandments, I don't think you have the right to open your big mouth about how anyone else is wrong in what they're doing.. I also don't see what business it is of yours/mine. Why stick our noses in other people's business, when there's so much wrong with us that needs to be fixed? We shouldn't have the time to sit there & gossip about people, because we should be working on fixing our own faults, which there is obviously no shortage of.

Just to clarify, when I say "you" and "people" I'm not saying YOU personally, I'm referring to "you" as a people and myself as well. I've committed most, if not all of those sins myself, in some form or another. Not to mention that I've done the 7 things that God hates.. (Proverbs 6:16-19)

These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (10 commandments rehashed)..

~ Kongsuni

Sorry, guy - but that post just makes me feel "icky". Needs a dash of grace and some unconditional love.

As far as the ORU thing and the Roberts - I'm saddened by what is going on. I would not want to be in their shoes, nor would I want to be in their accusers' shoes. I stand on neither side, instead, I stand in the gap - praying.

[cannon_fodder]

Kongsuni:

I'm not going to bother attempting to reply to each of your biblical references as you are very carefully analyzing the wording.  Such a labor is worthless.  Don't forget that your divinely inspired book has been passed down orally for several hundred years, then written in Aramaic, then Greek, and then translated into Latin. Just for fun, some books were in Hebrew somewhere in the middle there.  The Latin version was then transcribed from Old, to Middle and to "Modern" dialects of Latin.  The translation was also altered by each Pope, King, or Prophet that felt he had something to add or to remit.  Finally, the book was translated into English.

So what you are interpreting is what some despot decided you should read after it had been passed around for centuries before, edited, reworded, translated, and edited some more.  So when you analyze the word "idol" (define: a material effigy that is worshiped) to find out if it includes "symbols" (define: an arbitrary sign that has acquired a conventional significance) you are engaged in an exercise in futility.  

In fact, in that instance Hebrew has as many as 18 different words for "idol" ranging from "Teraphim" (meaning family idol, or a protection god for your family) to "Pesel" (meaning a metal statute worshiped as a god).   Not to mention, in the best known part of the bible is the commandment Though Shalt not KILL or MURDER?  Surely there is a difference - surely there is a difference but Christians can not agree on the commandment.

And I wont bother going into the all the blatant errors (Earth does not have corners, hares do not chew their cud, mustard seed is not the smallest, bats are not birds, whales are not fish, mustard plants are not trees, you cannot see the whole world from the top of any mountain) and contradictions (Samuel 31:4-6 Saul killed himself vs. Samuel 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines; Matt 1:16 says Jacob was Josephs father while Luke 3:23 says Heli was Josephs father; Lot was Abraham's nephew in Gen. 14:12 but becomes his brother by Gen. 14:14).

Either your god is really flippant with his language or the book you live your life by has been horribly corrupted by man.  Don't bother fencing with the small details unless you are prepared to actually study on them.  If you're lucky the overall meaning of some of the book has not been lost in translation, analogy, or modern understanding - but your attempt to define a single word and accordingly cast a stone is simply misguided.

SO... while I appreciate yours faith and your thoughts in this matter I have to disagree with your conclusion.  Would not your god be outraged at the use of his temple for the accumulation of wealth?  In fact, wasn't that the only time Jesus acted out in anger - when traders were using the lord for profit?  I have a long, long list of sins (9 of the commandments that I can think of by the strictest of definitions [ie. false witness = lying.  Lusting - adultery]), but I have never used others faith in god for my personal gain.

I've used the lords name in vain by cursing, but such an act surely pales in comparison to the vanity of using HIS name for profit.  And we all know "the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name."  Exodus 20:7.   Thus, like your god - I will not acquit the Roberts for their sin.  in an attempt to atone for his sin he should disgorge his money (to me) lest he be cast into a fiery hell. Mat 18:9.

[Conan71]

"That's not true. Jesus says to make friends with mammon (aka money).. It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Having money is not a bad thing, knowing how to make money work for you is not a bad thing.. Abraham was rich, Isaac was rich, Jacob, Joseph & David were rich.- And they were royalty on top of that. Solomon was rich (and royal).. There were quite a few extremely wealthy people in the bible."

What ever happened to it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man gaining entrance to heaven?

The Bible contains enough stories, allegories, proverbs, etc. that one can find justification for about any action, up to, and including killing another man.  I've seen the Bible bastardized for personal gain in many, many ways.  I'm not impuning this inspired work, I'm impuning people who have used it and God's name for nefarious gains and building extreme personal wealth on the backs of lonesome pensioneers.

"Seed faith" evangelists are up there on my list as being the worst of the worst hucksters and hustlers.

The concept and purpose of tithing is about personal sacrifice for the good of others and self-humility.  However, the concept of tithing isn't limited to financial contributions.  It takes very little thought to donate money.  It takes a heart to donate your time or skills.  Think of the the old "give a man a fish vs. teaching him to fish".

I won't sit here and deny that donations to ORM haven't gone to worthwhile missions which have provided comfort to people all over the world.  There are also ORU graduates who have become better humans for their experience and education at ORU.

The Roberts are wide open for criticism, and that criticism is not done without a certain amount of self-examination, at least for me.  Just because I'm a common sinner is not justification for an inspired leader of many Christians to be partaking in greed, gluttony, and "sins of the flesh". They have gained a sense of entitlement at the expense of thousands of people who believe that their contributions all go to good causes.  Richard Roberts appears to have zero compassion in dealing with dissidents in his ranks and lavish spending is considered a necessity and a right.  

What is truly sad is that Richard and Lindsey Roberts have evolved into celebrities and all the screwed up thinking which comes with that.

[AMP]

Majoity of US Currency has "In God We Trust"  engraved on it.

[cannon_fodder]

Yes, yes it does.  It was placed there after the civil war so future generations would not look back on that time period and think that those people were horrible godless pagans.  Sticking that phrase on our currency has made all the difference in our war-like nature.  []

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

"One Nation, Under God" was to help fight communism.  No one told Cuba that it mattered.

[kongsuni]

quote:Sorry, guy - but that post just makes me feel "icky". Needs a dash of grace and some unconditional love.

I'm not a guy. I'm female. As for love, I don't think people have to be pushovers or something to love people. I'm not out there telling people they're going to burn in hell forever & whatnot. I was basically trying to say that no one is perfect, it's not our business what other people do, because we should be working on ourselves & how can people judge others when they aren't so hot themselves? (that's including me).. Pointing that sorta thing out (at least in my opinion) is very loving. XD The way I actually say things & the way they end up coming off online are very different, so I apologize if I sounded mean or something, I wasn't trying to be. lol I'm just a very blunt person I guess. (one of the many things I need to work on!!)

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Kongsuni:

I'm not going to bother attempting to reply to each of your biblical references as you are very carefully analyzing the wording.  Such a labor is worthless.

It's not like I just decided to do a study on this all of a sudden just for this subject. I've been studying for almost a decade & are just things that are common knowledge for me. Not much of a labor, really, just typing up some basic, standard info.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Don't forget that your divinely inspired book has been passed down orally for several hundred years, then written in Aramaic, then Greek, and then translated into Latin. Just for fun, some books were in Hebrew somewhere in the middle there.  The Latin version was then transcribed from Old, to Middle and to "Modern" dialects of Latin.  The translation was also altered by each Pope, King, or Prophet that felt he had something to add or to remit.  Finally, the book was translated into English.

That's not entirely true. I'm not going to bother replying more than that, because it's not a theological debate.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

So what you are interpreting is what some despot decided you should read after it had been passed around for centuries before, edited, reworded, translated, and edited some more.

Again, not entirely true.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

So when you analyze the word "idol" (define: a material effigy that is worshiped) to find out if it includes "symbols" (define: an arbitrary sign that has acquired a conventional significance) you are engaged in an exercise in futility.

There's only one thing that I can remember off the top of my head that God said for people to make, as far as a symbol goes, but they weren't to worship it.. It was a sepulcher of a serpent & they were supposed to look at it, so that the poison of these snakes that were attacking them didn't hurt them & they would be spared. There wasn't anything about crosses, fish, stars, menorahs or etc.. My belief is that people don't need symbols/idols to show their faith in God, because THEY themselves are most important symbols of their faith. There were certain things that were in the tabernacle or in the temple, ie: arc of the covenant/throne of God etc.. But people couldn't actually LOOK at that, if they did, they'd be fried. lol They also didn't worship those things, they were there for a specific reason.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

In fact, in that instance Hebrew has as many as 18 different words for "idol" ranging from "Teraphim" (meaning family idol, or a protection god for your family) to "Pesel" (meaning a metal statute worshiped as a god).   Not to mention, in the best known part of the bible is the commandment Though Shalt not KILL or MURDER?  Surely there is a difference - surely there is a difference but Christians can not agree on the commandment.

Yep, there are different words for idol in Hebrew. It's important to know which type that the bible is talking about. I have a few concordances that I look up words in, as it'll take me a lifetime to learn Hebrew as well as I need to, but there are major differences in the words & it's important to look them up. I try to refer back to the Hebrew/Aramaic/Chaldee/Greek as much as possible. I was just tossing out some basic information for folks to nibble on, not trying to win some theological debate.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

And I wont bother going into the all the blatant errors (Earth does not have corners, hares do not chew their cud, mustard seed is not the smallest, bats are not birds, whales are not fish, mustard plants are not trees, you cannot see the whole world from the top of any mountain) and contradictions (Samuel 31:4-6 Saul killed himself vs. Samuel 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines; Matt 1:16 says Jacob was Josephs father while Luke 3:23 says Heli was Josephs father; Lot was Abraham's nephew in Gen. 14:12 but becomes his brother by Gen. 14:14).

Those aren't blatant errors. There's reasons why those things were said & they can be explained fairly simply.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Either your god is really flippant with his language or the book you live your life by has been horribly corrupted by man.

If that's the case, I'm still not worried. I believe things will be straightened out upon His return. That's partially what the 1000 years before judgment is for! He does give you every opportunity possible to accept him, you know.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Don't bother fencing with the small details unless you are prepared to actually study on them.

That's all I do is study & they're not small details. A small detail to me is arguing weather Jesus ate leavened or unleavened bread at the last supper, or that John the Baptist ate grasshoppers cooked or uncooked. Those are small details (but I have witnessed people arguing over them. LOL).

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

If you're lucky the overall meaning of some of the book has not been lost in translation, analogy, or modern understanding - but your attempt to define a single word and accordingly cast a stone is simply misguided.

I don't think so, otherwise I wouldn't have said it, but thanks for your opinion.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

SO... while I appreciate yours faith and your thoughts in this matter I have to disagree with your conclusion.  Would not your god be outraged at the use of his temple for the accumulation of wealth?

Where did you read that I thought it was okay for people to use his "temple" for accumulation of wealth?.. I didn't ever say anything like that. I just said that being rich isn't a crime & it's not. A lot of people are under the misconception that God wants us all to be poor, beggar type of people.. That's not true. If that's what YOU want, go for it, but there's numerous times where God put people in extremely high positions & gave them so much wealth they couldn't spend it in 100 lifetimes.

Also, God's temple is a pile of rubble in Jerusalem right now. Why do you think animal sacrifices stopped?... Not to mention that followers of God had to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year, to participate in 3 of the feasts. (Not all animal sacrifices are for sins- so don't get your knickers in a wad, that's not what I was saying).. There's just a huge lack of knowledge about Hebrew (NOT "Jewish") customs. Abraham was the first Hebrew. Hebrew means "he who crosses over", because he left Babylon to follow God. Through his line came the 12 tribes of Israel (Israel is Jacob's name).. Out of the 12 tribes of Israel, Judah was only ONE of them. Jews come from Judah. There's 11 other tribes out there & they're all Hebrews. It's not JUST a "Jewish" thing.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

In fact, wasn't that the only time Jesus acted out in anger - when traders were using the lord for profit?

Yes. I never said that using God's name to make money was a good thing & I never would say that. I don't support it at all. That's why I don't go to any Christian churches. I think they're all pretty much that way. Pass the money basket around. XD

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I have a long, long list of sins (9 of the commandments that I can think of by the strictest of definitions [ie. false witness = lying.  Lusting - adultery]), but I have never used others faith in god for my personal gain.

I've used the lords name in vain by cursing, but such an act surely pales in comparison to the vanity of using HIS name for profit.

Doesn't really matter how you've misused his name, the point is that you have & it's just as bad as what the Robert's are or aren't doing. (Personally, I can't say if they're guilty or not, because I wasn't there & it's not my job to judge them- or anyone else for that matter & it's certainly not my job to go around & tell everyone that they're going to rot in hell forever & ever & things like that.)

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

And we all know "the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name."  Exodus 20:7.   Thus, like your god - I will not acquit the Roberts for their sin.  in an attempt to atone for his sin he should disgorge his money (to me) lest he be cast into a fiery hell. Mat 18:9.

LMAO [][)][] What can I say to that?... Rock on with your bad self, cannon. [8D]

~ Kongsuni

[RecycleMichael]

"Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's blunders?"

Friedrich Nietzsche

[cannon_fodder]

Wow.

While I have some seriously theological and religious differences of opinions with you Kongsuni, I am thoroughly impressed with your reasoned and well written response.  Too often people stop in and post a righteousness bomb and walk away feeling they are holier than thou.  I misjudged you and I apologies.  I'm glad to learn that you understand the faults in your beliefs, have studied in that accord and are willing to question what you know.  

Again, in spite of disagreement - thanks for a well thought out reply.