Oklahoma lawmaker shows prejudice against Islam

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Channel 6 coverage of today's story angle...

http://www.kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=138632

Interfaith Community Responds To Lawmakers
AP - 10/26/2007 9:38 AM - Updated 10/26/2007 12:49 PM
TULSA, Okla. (AP) -- Remarks by some state lawmakers who rejected Qurans offered as gifts from an ethnic advisory council promote Islamophobia, mistrust and hostility, members of Oklahoma's interfaith community said Friday.

Members also said Republican state Rep. Rex Duncan's comments this week about the Quran promoted "religious bigotry" and called upon Oklahomans to tell the Sand Springs lawmaker that his views don't represent those of Oklahomans or Americans.

Duncan refused to accept the Quran, saying most Oklahomans did not "endorse the idea of killing innocent women and children in the name of ideology."

He expressed those sentiments about the Quran in a letter copied to colleagues on Monday. By Wednesday evening, at least 24 legislators had notified the panel they would return the gift to a state panel on diversity. No state funds were used to purchase the books.

"Rep. Duncan has handled this situation in a way that is disrespectful of his fellow Americans," said the Rev. Marlin Lavanhar, president of the Tulsa Metropolitan Ministries Board of Trustees. "At the centennial of our state, we must all tell Rex Duncan that his discriminatory words and his unapologetic bigotry toward his fellow American citizens do not represent our great state or our blessed country."

Lavanhar was joined at a news conference by members of the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, Tulsa Interfaith Alliance and the Jewish Federation, among others.

"Today, I'm an American Muslim, speaking for our brothers," said David Bernstein, executive director of the Jewish Federation of Tulsa. "Hateful words inevitably lead to hateful actions."

Razi Hashmi, executive director of CAIR Oklahoma, said the Islamic faith condemns terrorism and acts of violence against the innocent, and at a time of international crisis, religious groups should be trying to understand each other, not "promoting mistrust and hostility."

On Friday, Duncan said he stood by his original comments, and added, "such hostile response to a refusal to accept a gift is un-American."

"It should be a wake-up call to all Oklahomans and all Americans that CAIR is a hostile organization," Duncan said. "And while they claim to be peaceful and respectful, their actions prove otherwise."

An estimated 30,000 to 50,000 Muslims live in Oklahoma.

I think Duncan stepped in it again.  What a fool.

[MichaelC]

He can be quiet and slink off into a dark space for a while, any time he wants.  He doesn't have to keep giving interviews.

That of course means, he's either an idiot or he fully intends to take advantage of the spotlight.  I'm still betting on the latter.

[spoonbill]

If you were offered a copy of the Satanic Bible, The Communist Manifesto, or Al Gore's book bound in leather with your name inbossed on it, and you were also offered the option to decline, would you?

This was an obvious trap, and unfortunately he fell for it.  I'm not sure why all of these Islamic organizations feel it necessary to set publicity traps like this?

Just like the Imams who caused the scene at the airport and then tried to sue the airlines then the passengers.  For god's sake, they had already alerted the media before they arrived at the airport.

All of these actions serve the simple purpose to soften the peoples reaction to objectionable acts.

This is a form of terrorism!  To cause a group of people to fear a choice that they were invited to make!  Despicable!

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

If you were offered a copy of the Satanic Bible, The Communist Manifesto, or Al Gore's book bound in leather with your name inbossed on it, and you were also offered the option to decline, would you?

This was an obvious trap, and unfortunately he fell for it.  I'm not sure why all of these Islamic organizations feel it necessary to set publicity traps like this?

Just like the Imams who caused the scene at the airport and then tried to sue the airlines then the passengers.  For god's sake, they had already alerted the media before they arrived at the airport.

All of these actions serve the simple purpose to soften the peoples reaction to objectionable acts.

This is a form of terrorism!  To cause a group of people to fear a choice that they were invited to make!  Despicable!

Chill out, man.  It's just a book.

[rwarn17588]

Message to Spoonbill (and others of such ilk):

Helloooooooo! It was A GIFT! It was a GOODWILL GESTURE!! Why is that so hard to understand?

I've received plenty of gifts that I didn't need or want. But I didn't act like an incourteous jerk and refuse them -- unless I was 4 years old, which Duncan is acting like.

Duncan is especially acting brain-damaged by lumping ALL the members of one religion into a tiny group of nutjobs. How stupid.

I know some Muslims, and guess what? They don't act like al-Qaidans. They act like AMERICANS!!!

Instead, we've got people on this forum who are describing the gift of a Quran as "a trap" and "terrorism." How you folks lost your freakin' minds? Has 9/11 made you deranged, even six years later? Have the words "professional help" been used around you?

End of rant.

[kakie]

Read what the Islamic Society of Oklahoma City says about waging war against unbelievers:

Does Islam command its followers to wage war against unbelievers or kill them with out provocation? Absolutely not! Unfortunately, this is a popular misconception among people living in the United States and the west in general, and the statements of a few radicals in the Muslim world don't help in ending this false idea in people' minds. In fact, Islam forbids the taking of any human life except for a just cause under the law (i.e. the Qur'an & Sunnah), that is: capital punishment for convicted murderers, fighting in wartime, or self-defense.  

The ISOGOC catagorically denies that Islam commanded Muslims to wage war against unbelievers unless its justified.  So with their statement in mind, let's review Chapter 9 of the Quran:

Be sure to watch the video at the end because it ties into this chapter and what is happening today throughout the world.

Historical background of Chapter 9:  ...."In order to enable the Muslims to extend the influence of Islam outside Arabia, they were enjoined to crush with sword the non- Muslim powers and to force them to accept the sovereignty of the Islamic State.  

...Thousands of volunteers, who were filled with the desire of sacrificing their lives for Islam, came to the Holy Prophet and requested that arrangements for weapons and conveyance be made for them so that they should join the expedition.

http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/2007/10/most-of-the-cri.html

[MichaelC]

I'm confused, somehow the exploitation of Christianity during the Crusades is irrelevant, but we can go back a few centuries before that as long as we're talking about Islam?

And secondly, why go back that far?  The Ottomans did a heck of a job using religion during warfare.  

It's always exploitation.  Going back to the Battle of Milvian Bridge my friend, that one is kind of obvious.  

Overwhelmingly, religious wars are fought over something entirely different than religion.  But leaders do have to keep their folks in line, and keep them going, that's where religion comes in.  Even the Crusades, do you think those were really fought for religious reasons?  How many times was the New World explored under the pretext of religious reasons, only to see hundreds of thousands of people slaughtered over gold?  I can only think of a couple of true-religious wars, and even those I'd have to dig further to be able tell for sure.  Odds are, they were about something else.

[kakie]

I can't believe I even have to say this - the subject matter here is Islam and the controversy over rejecting the Quran is because of violence done in the name of ISLAM.  

Are you aware that Islamists have carried out nearly 10,000 attacks since 9/11? Usually there are 3-7 attacks a day.  There is a website that keeps track of this.

I personally don't see the need to talk about the Crusades (weren't they largely trying to stop Islamic conquests?) because there are no Crusader terrorists blowing themselves up daily somewhere in the world.

And non of the national security measures in America and Europe are because of violent actions in the name of Christianity.  Nor are there any world-wide Christian organizations seeking to create a Christianic global state.

Did I miss something here?  I must be tired.

[MichaelC]

Short Answer:  Islam is not the cause.  It's a tool.  See below for the long explanation.

The Crusades were meant to invade and conquer the "Holy Land".  The wars were about land and treasure for kings, clerics, and nobility.  Most wars are, just because it was in the name of Christ, or God, or Christianity...just because they were religious wars, doesn't make the primary motive religion.  Religion is a tool of warfare, it's never the primary reason.

The architects of most wars use religious rhetoric.  Many many Nazi's invoked "The Lord", "God", "Christ,"; it served a purpose, to keep people interested.  Religion is very utilitarian for leaders.

Today, the Iraq War, the majority of citizens still supporting it are highly religious.  That was done by design, it is not a coincidence.

It's the same for Islam.  Hussein appealed to religion to invade Kuwait.  Hussein appealed to religion to defend Iraq.  Ahmadinejad appeals to religion to keep people believing there are more pressing matters than his own country's economy. Osama Bin Ladin, a very wealthy "nobel"-type tribal leader, appeals to religion for jihad against the West.  

Religion itself is not a bad thing, none of them are.  Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the rest, they're all fine.  But they are all used as tools.  It's never a Christian calling for a Crusade, it's a preacher or a pope or a king.  Same with Islam, jihads are called by sultans and clerics and tribal leaders.  None of these are popular religious uprisings, based solely on inherent evil within a religion.

There's no reason to dig through the Koran or Bible, in order to find out how evil Muslims or Christians are.  You can find it in both cases, if that's really your goal.   Both religions are tools of warfare, not the cause.  And if xenophobia is not the idea, you might want to clean the slate and just start over.

[iplaw]

MichaelC:

I see your points, but why is it that seemingly all other religions have managed to move past violence as a means of conversion?  You can cite to the likes of Eric Rudolph and a handful of other freaks, but there are no concerted efforts by groups of people posing as "christians" the likes of what you see with Islam.  It's simply a matter of degree.

There are nearly two dozen areas around the world with  millions of radical muslims who can't live in peace with their neighbors.  It's an ongoing pattern of aggression that has never ceased since the inception of the religion.

I'm tempted to say it's just cultural, but it's cross cultural and transcends borders as evidenced by the sheer number of places currently in turmoil.

Granted, people can even use hinduism to justfy violence, but why is it that Islam seems to be the catalyst of choice?  If your position is really correct, and it's just justification, why don't we see violence more evenly distributed across other religions?

[Conan71]

Honestly, I have no idea if the conferrance of the Quran to narrow-minded Oklahoma legislators was a well-timed (and intentioned) ****-bomb from followers of Islam similar to a small group of Muslims getting on an airplane and purposely causing a disturbance about a year ago or not.  If it wasn't a genuine gesture, expect some sort of civil rights lawsuit in short order.

It might have been pure altruism.  Then again, it might have been a set up.  If I were Rex Duncan, I would have assumed set-up and burned the damn thing in my fireplace in complete silence, that's what I usually do with un-wanted gifts rather than going to the media.

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

How are the beheadings and suicide bombings out there in Mena? Are they as bad as they are in Clayton?

There were lynchings in Mena early last century, but they stopped because the racists ran all the blacks out of town so there was nobody left to lynch.  There haven't been any in several decades, but there have been within the last 100 years.

I went to college at UCA in Conway.  Almost without fail, when I told a black person where I was from they would cringe, say "Mena?", then avoid me.  Its reputation is that bad.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

MichaelC:

Plenty of reasons.  There's no short answer.  More obviously though...

Most of the countries are, quite lawless.  Take  Saudi Arabia, it's next to the end of the earth.  Get out of populated areas, and the only law is tribal law.  Equate that to European Nobility, and you have the Middle Ages.  Nobles enforcing their own laws on their own peasants (tribesmen), largely enforced by, guess what, religion.  You've got Kings interested in keeping power, and having to deal with some powerful clerics who only want more power.  They're legitimacy comes from their ability to control, religion is powerful stuff.

Probably the best way to distract a populace, is to sick it on someone else.  Doesn't matter who,  we like to distract ourselves with Muslims or Hispanics.  It's a much easier sell if you can use religion.  For those folks, religion is easily used against us, Israel, Shiites, Sunnis, Kurds, Armenians, Zoroastrians, another tribe, Indians, whatever.   Doesn't really matter.  It's very diverse and very heavily populated and very poor, and no where outside Israel and perhaps Turkey is there anything remotely close to a single stable institution of law.  Take a bunch of truly poor people, "tell them God wants you to kill these 'other' people, and we'll give you money to do it, go get them."  It's nothing new.

"So let's get rid of them", that's not exactly how it works.  It's taken us around 1000 years, and some exclusively European ideas, and Western technologies, to get to this point.  A current western system, imposed on a Middle Ages mind set, is doomed to failure.  A foundation has to be built first.  Being mindful, that some of the countries are not very old, and their only memories of Western Civilization are of conquest, oil, and colonialism.   Also, many civilizations have developed their own paths, which aren't Western.  There's no guarantee that anything imposed by us, would work or should work.

It's not that other religions have moved past Islam as far as development, Christianity with few exceptions did little to pull Western Europe out of the Middle Ages.  It took people thinking instead of simply following.  People creating instead of cowering in a corner.  People writing, and reading, and philosophizing.  And it took economic opportunity, and technological development.  Christianity was not responsible for that, Christianity dragged it's heals through 1000 years of development, to where we are today.  Kicking and screaming, and it still does, to this very day.  Religions, are not fond of change, it threatens their legitimacy, and their ability to project power.

As for Christianity, it's dark side is certainly just as real as any other religions.  It's mostly subdued, kept in check by secular society, economic opportunity, Enlightenment ideals, and law.  In places it's not, Christianity is often discounted as a motivator.  Where in Islamic countries, it has a tendency to be amplified, or be pushed to the level of prime motivator.  Take Rwanda, where both Tutsi and Hutu were primarily Catholic.  Catholicism didn't start the fight, but in all probability it was used as a catalyst in some circles, in exactly the same manner that Islam would be used as a catalyst in fights between Sunni tribesmen, or any two ethnic groups of the same religion.  Yet, if Christians are slaughtering each other or someone else, we discount the Christianity part.  With Islam, we amplify it.

Or Bosnia, where the Orthodox Christians were slaughtering Bosnian Muslims and Catholic Croats.  Christianity was most definitely NOT the reason for that war, but it was used as a cover for ethnic cleansing.  To a Muslim, looking in from the outside, it could definitely look like a crime directly out of the Bible, and directly related to inherent evil in Christianity.  Which it was most certainly not.

Or the war in the DRC (Congo), no one talks about it, but it's mostly fought by Catholics and Protestants slaughtering each other.  Not in the name of religion, but I'm certain it's being used as a tool.

Is it a concerted effort by Christianity to exterminate each other, and Islam and everyone else?  No.  And there's no concerted effort by Islam either.  It's just places and variables and characters, and the way we look at it.  Being silent about one, and amplifying the other.

For Islam, take the Philippines.  Where legitimate grievances surround the massacre of Islamic military recruits by Catholic military recruits of the same Filipino Army in 1968, lead to open rebellion in the name of a the creation of a separate state.  It's still an issue today.  That movement was not caused by Islam and expanding Islam isn't the goal, Islam is the tool.  The means to an end.  And like most rebellions, it's not a popular uprising.

Noting, most examples of infractions attributed to religion occur in poor countries, underdeveloped countries, lawless countries, or even poorly designed countries.

That's a lot of words.

[kakie]

I can see why a Christian would be offended by an offer of the Quran, accompanied by a statement that the book was the exact word of God.  For me it was preaching.  The Quran says Jesus was not the son of God which is the whole basis of Christianity.  Christians and Jews are considered on the wrong side and not the chosen one in Islam.  Think about it, what are you telling a Christian when you offer them the Quran?  It is shocking to me.

In America we have free speech.  Rep. Duncan does not like Islam, he said so. That is his right.  I believe he was also quite offended by the offer from this Muslim group who meet in a taxpayer funded building with support of the Office of Personnel Management at the meetings - also paid for by taxpayers.  Is this Muslim group trying to promote Islam?  Because if this is what they are doing,  everyone should be calling the governor to disband this council.  Muslims can invite people to their mosques to learn about Islam if they like but they should not use a governor's council to promote their religion, at all.  This is wrong, wrong, wrong.  It needs to be looked into more.

I believe there is a problem when you cannot speak out like Rep. Duncan did without being called an Islamophobic.  This seems to be the standard response from CAIR. CAIR, the Council on American Islamic Relations,  is a group that was started from employees of the Islamic Association of Palestine which was shut down by the government for funding terrorist groups. One of CAIR's top officials has said Islam should be the top authority in America. I have the artilce if you need to see it.   I believe this is the ultimate goal of many Muslim orgainzations in America.  

Five of CAIR's employees have been convicted of crimes relating to terrorism.  Doesn't it alarm you that this organization is trying to put the sqeeze on free speech?  Isn't this as an attempt to stop people from being critical of Islam?  Muslims must respect our right to dislike or disagree with their religion.  Many Oklahoma Muslims came from the Middle East where no criticism of Islam is allowed - I mean you are forced to be a Muslim.  

On Friday, Rep. Rex Duncan said he stood by his original comments, and added, "such hostile response to a refusal to accept a gift is un-American."

"It should be a wake-up call to all Oklahomans and all Americans that CAIR is a hostile organization," Duncan said. "And while they claim to be peaceful and respectful, their actions prove otherwise."

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by kakie

I can see why a Christian would be offended by an offer of the Quran, accompanied by a statement that the book was the exact word of God.  For me it was preaching.  The Quran says Jesus was not the son of God which is the whole basis of Christianity.  Christians and Jews are considered on the wrong side and not the chosen one in Islam.  Think about it, what are you telling a Christian when you offer them the Quran?  It is shocking to me.

And the overwhelming majority of Christianity thinks Islam and Judaism are on the wrong side.  They all have factions of various size that openly believe their books are the "exact words of God."  It's much bigger in Christianity or Islam, than Judaism.  But it's nothing new.  

An Enlightened person would have found the concept quaint, or would have as least had the ability to comprehend where that concept comes from.  And the overwhelming majority of our Christian legislators accepted it, choosing not to pander to fear, prejudice, or hatred.  

And just as Duncan and his friends are perfectly free to say anything they want, everyone else is free to call their speech "Islamophobia."  Islamophobia is an irrational fear or prejudice towards Islam and Muslims.  For the most part, that moniker seems to be an appropriate description of his speech.