Oklahoma lawmaker shows prejudice against Islam

[Wingnut]

quote: It's a matter of taking responsibility, people complain that Islam is not publicly denouncing Islam,  

First off, I did mean condemn. Sorry, I was in a hurry.

I didn't say that Islam has to denounce Islam, I said Islam needs to denounce the violence done in the name of Islam. Islam is supposed to be the "Religion of Peace", right? How can they be if they won't denounce violence in their own ranks. Even their schools teach violence on Jews and Christians. The moderates (those who denounce violence) are quelled or silenced, even here in Tulsa. Remember the guy who spoke out against extremest violence and was kicked out of the mosque?
As for Christians, if I remember correctly, many did denounce the crimes done by Eric Rudolph.
As for the klan, I don't know where in the Bible that it says you are supposed to kills blacks. It's someone's interpitation which they twisted to fit their personal agenda and hatered.
I would have to see their justification (on any matter) in the Bible to consider it "Christian". Just calling something Christian, doesn't make it so. Many thought Star Wars was Christian (good side, dark side)when it was actually Buddist.

[MichaelC]

But, your getting into some technicalities that not all Christians agree on.  Sure, the old Testament is History, until it's useful right?  Christians pick and choose what they follow, and what is and what is not a part of their religion.  The entire OT is a nebulous gray area, used to justify plenty in the name of Christianity.  While the NT, what is generally accepted as Christian, doesn't go into enough details to be considered a whole text by itself.  Modern Christianity has the tendency to directly contradict the NT, as much as it embraces it.

There is justification in the Bible for the Klan, there is justification for Ethnic Cleansing, just depends on what you focus on and what your preacher preaches.

What you're talking about with Muslims being removed for stirring things up at a Mosque, that sounds an awful lot like being "churched."  I'm not sure what business of yours or mine it would be, people are forcibly removed for various reasons at Christian churches.

On this:

quote:I didn't say that Islam has to denounce Islam, I said Islam needs to denounce the violence done in the name of Islam.

You can't really expect Islam as a whole, to show up in rallies and on TV denouncing violence, but it has been done mostly by scholars and clerics.  Which is what you would see by Christianity, ordinary people have things to do besides protest and be on TV.

[rwarn17588]

From today's story, it's amazing how people keep stepping in it:

Reynolds said that linking the gift to Oklahoma's Centennial is inappropriate since "the United States and Oklahoma were founded on Judeo-Christian values and traditions."

He said the group consists of "Muslim activists" and is not representative of the state's diversity.

"Islam simply has not played a role in our state's or country's history," he said.

<end clip>

This shows a lot of ignorance about Oklahoma's history. The state's had a lot of prominent Lebanese people since the beginnings of statehood, and a good portion of them had to be Muslims. (Just look up at the names at the old buildings in Bristow if you don't believe me.) There are Lebanese-Americans that are third- and fourth-generation in Oklahoma.

And the founders of the United States were determined to de-emphasize religion when they wrote the Constitution. That's because they had long memories about authoritarian, religious leaders in Europe.

[Wingnut]

quote: You can't really expect Islam as a whole, to show up in rallies and on TV denouncing violence, but it has been done mostly by scholars and clerics.xt

Individuals maybe, but not any organizations.
Example...

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=37E452D3-01B9-47BB-840D-AE8FF29273A1

From the story...
Technically, there was no IFAW (Islamo-Fascist Awareness Week)at Penn. It was renamed "Terrorism Awareness Week" following objections that the events conflicted with the Muslim Student Association's Islam Awareness Week. Moreover, in the words of local MSA chairman Samir Malik, the original designation "was very narrow-minded, wasn't respectful, and wasn't conducive to the open dialogue environment that Penn strives to foster." The Penn College Republicans accepted the change as part of a compromise in which Penn's MSA would compose a statement condemning violence perpetrated in the name of Islam.


However, the MSA failed to uphold its end of the bargain, as its statement does not offer an unambiguous reproach of Islamic-inspired bloodshed. The text instead features lamentations that Islam is misunderstood, a quote decrying the term "Islamo-Fascism" from 9/11 "Truther" Paul Craig Roberts, and other metaphysical murk. Moreover, the Koranic ayat (5:32) put forth to allegedly denounce "violence against innocent civilians" was edited to exclude a phrase that permits the killing of those who promote "mischief in the land." Were the denizens of the World Trade Center "innocent"? Was Theo van Gogh making "mischief" when he filmed Submission? Were the Penn College Republicans?

If Islam is "misunderstood", then I guess we should accept beheadings, rape, stonings, & hangings as part of it

[MichaelC]

Most Islamic organization are busy fighting to exist right now, within the law.  As long as Christian organizations attack Islam, by the creation of "Islamo-Fascist Week", political or religious rallies, TV shows that are only used as propaganda for the destruction of Islam;  You can expect a fight.

No, you don't have to accept anything as part of a Religion.  Most people, in this country, have enough sense to realize that infractions in the name of Christianity are the exception, rather than the rule.  Though many choose not to give the same consideration to Islam.  It is discrimination by definition.

And what is done in warfare, is entirely separate from Christianity or Islam.  Beheadings, kidnappings, torture, bombings, or even a Christian US Soldier slaughtering an Islamic family for no defensible reason.  No one makes the judgment that all of US forces are evil or that it was done in the name of Christianity, yet you seem to be particularly interested in any incident that can stereotype Islam.

All that needs to happen, is less complaining, more understanding that Islam is diverse and just like Christianity, the number of criminals committing crimes in the name of the religion is small.  And religions are used as tools by clerics and political leaders and strong-men for some other goal.  It's never the fault of the Religion itself.

[Wingnut]

quote: yet you seem to be particularly interested in any incident that can stereotype Islam.

No, as before, the bottom line is I just want Islamic organizations that say they speak for Islam (CAIR, MSA, ISM, Muslim Brotherhood, etc), to denounce violence done by muslim exteremists (Islamo-facists) as unIslamic.
None will! Even when they say they will, they won't!
You can try changing the topic to slam Christians if you like and bring up all kinds of history, but it doesn't change the fact that they won't disavow non warfare violence. They just won't!

[MichaelC]

No ones changing the topic over from Islam to Christianity.  And no ones "slamming" Christianity.  Christianity and Islam have far more in common than they not.  The only way you could see me slamming Christianity on this thread, is if you consider comparisons to Islam a "slam."

Here's the deal, large parts of this society have taken a purely discriminatory tact towards Islam.  They demand that Islamic organizations speak out more, in ways no Christian would be asked.  They put out propaganda and rhetoric that is untrue and harmful to Islam, for the single reason of promoting stereotypes.  They preach this "invasion" of the Islamic religion in it's entirety, for the only reason of inciting Fear, the only prerequisite for Xenophobia.

You don't have to accept anything about Islam.  Backing up off of it, and choosing not to focus on minor details, choosing not to continually pound the religion, I don't think that's much to ask.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

You can try changing the topic to slam Christians if you like and bring up all kinds of history, but it doesn't change the fact that they won't disavow non warfare violence.

AND, name one act (meaning less than two, and more than zero) attributed to Islam, that was of "non warfare violence."

[Wingnut]

How about 9/11.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

How about 9/11.

Oh, now, come on.  Make it a little tougher on me.

I answered this on page 6, though not in detail.  Extremely wealthy Middle Eastern strongman creates organization, allies with clerics and tribal lords, recruits excessively poor and religious zealot types, declares war on the US in response to the US troops on Saudi soil, and booyah, 911.  That was an act of warfare.

Odds are, if he didn't have the specific justification, he would have come up with something else.  The clerics and Bin Laden had the power, the means, and the recruits, to carry out that attack.

[Wingnut]

But it wasn't warfare. We were not at war.

Now, tell me an Islamic org that will/has denounce violence.

Meanwhile, follow this like and scroll down to where the women is going to be hanged and watch the video.  ***Warning, It is very grusome!***
http://www.frontpagemag.com/

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

But it wasn't warfare. We were not at war.

Just because you don't know you're at war, doesn't mean you're not at war.  Bin Laden and his cleric friends declared war on us quite some time ago, but we kept it quiet initially since it wasn't a country.  We have the tendency to pay less attention to international nut jobs.

And if this was somehow about Islam, how do you explain that a billion or however many Muslims there are, have not attacked us yet?  Islam is not now, nor has Islam ever been as a whole, at war with us.  We can't even get domestic Muslim's to commit more than their fair share of crimes.  If Islam is such an inherently evil religion, how do you explain that?

It's the domestic "rebel"-types that we normally take seriously, and none of them so far have been Muslim.

[kakie]

Michael C

I sent you a PM just a minute ago regarding your reply to a post I made here.  I need you to address specifically where in my post I have misunderstood Islam.  I broke it down to make it easier for you to reply exactly where you said I misunderstood Islam.  

Your first reply didn't address what you said I misunderstood.

Thanks.

[Wingnut]

quote: It's the domestic "rebel"-types that we normally take seriously, and none of them so far have been Muslim.

I guess the Fort Dix 6 weren't muslim.
I guess the 11 students that got "lost" going to Wyoming but some were found in New York at a terrorist pizza parlor weren't muslim.
The guy that drove into a crowd of people in front of a Jewish Temple wasn't muslim.
The OU bomber that frequented a mosque in Norman that some of the 9/11 hijackers attended, who had hunderd of lbs of explosives in his apartment, that accidently discharged a bomb which had ball bearings in it wasn't muslim.
The 3 guys that had hunderds of cell phones and pics of Macinaw bridge that later confessed that the phones were to be sent over to be used for bombs weren't muslim.
Not!

[MichaelC]

Some of them were nuts, some of them were Muslim.

I was thinking more in line with your typical Eric Rudolph, Timothy McVeigh, Warren Jeffs, Branch Davidian types.

All those lovely Christians.  You know, by your own logic, you and all Christianity are responsible for their actions.