Oklahoma lawmaker shows prejudice against Islam

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man

Are you a Muslim, Michael?

No, nothing to discuss there, next question.

I'm not playing with you.  If you expect me to answer a question, you're damn well going ask it, it meaning singular, one.  And you're damn well going to discuss it when it's answered.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man

Wouldn't Muslims who don't practice this type of Islam join in with everyone to help bring pressure on the world to stop the practice of this version of Islam?

I'm going to give you a pass this time Jeffrey.  I'm serious about one at a time.

First, it's a judgment call.  I've been accused of diversion tactics when I reference Christianity, but what you are asking of Islam is discriminatory.   You refuse to apply the same rules to Christianity.

Should they?  Maybe.  It's a judgment call.  And maybe most of Christianity should be more vocal about Christian atrocities as well, they aren't.  I don't judge that, you do.  There's the difference.

Discuss...

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

So back on point, we'll see if the goon squad in nose bleed has calmed down or not.

Again, for the last time, you want me to answer a question, you're going to give it to me one question at a time, and you're damn well going to discuss it.  

I don't have time to be bombarded by bigotry.  I will answer your questions though.

I feel for you Michael, and it is unfair to imply that all Muslems are responsible for terrorism.  I admire your drive to defend a religion that cannot be held responsible for the actions of men.  

After all this post was originally about the refusal by a political leader to accept a religious text as a gift.  
I personally believe that in a country that defends the separation of church and state, gifts to politicians of a religious nature should never be accepted.  

A paperweight, a stapler or other items are fine, but "documents of religious doctrine"  especially with the name of the politician engraved on the cover implying some form of endorsement are completely unacceptable.

As far as the direction this discussion has taken. . .
My point has allways been, that Islam is not responsible for terrorism, HOWEVER, the doctrine itself precludes Muslems from accepting secular concepts of individual freedom, material prosperity, and personal happiness outside of Islam.

Therefore the cure for radical terrorism must come from within Islamic doctrine.  Simply defending all Islam and ignoring its responsibility to temper its own sword serves no purpose.

As long as Islamic doctrine restricts these simple secular concepts, it is difficult for Muslim leaders to guide thier follwers in a dirrection of peace. Even peaceful american Muslims grapple with with these concepts.

I took a year of Arab studies at TU (long before 9/11) and this was the #1 debate topic between Arab students and american students.  All of these debates were focused on the concept that as Christians or Jews we were ahl al-kitab and of less importance than Muslims.  The disconnect between the Western view of equality and the Islamic view is vast.

Because we still live in a time of "Multiculturalism," we feel that it is taboo to discuss these topics, or that it makes us bigots to pose the tough questions, but we are slowly healing from the politically-correct, multicultural speak of the 90's and moving more towards an ability to have frank discussions with tough questions and real answers.
So I pose this question to everyone.  Why should any politician accept gifts of religious doctrine?

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

Why should any politician accept gifts of religious doctrine?

They had the right to reject it, I don't think there was a problem there.  But there's nothing intrinsically evil about accepting it either.

Separation of Church and State has mostly to do with Gov't involvement in religion, and by default Religious use of Gov't property.  Because State can not be in the Church business, Church is limited on what it can do as far as State business.  Primarily, they can't exploit gov't funds or facilities in order to preach.

However, again, a book is a book.  I wish I had one, would have taken one of the Centennial Bible's the SoBap's handed out.  As long as they are paying for them, and aren't using gov't property to preach or gov't money to pay for it, there's no real argument.

If the Koran or the Bible were funded by the State, it would likely have been a clear violation.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

I thought you left along time ago...So your back and leaving again....

And I see you're still a liar, fabulous.

Looks like a search is in order......heh...

[unknown]

There are many Christian organizations and movements that do and have taken part in terrorism...yet we as Americans should only focus on Islam? How many Christians have taken part in a Hate Crime against a Muslim? I'm willing to bet quite a few. Christians are just as dangerous and crazy as Muslims.

Christian Identity
Promise Keepers
Operation Rescue
Phineas Priesthood
The Army of God
Aryan Nations
The Church of Jesus Christ Christian
The Institute for Historic Review
The Order
I shouldn't have to mention the Ku Klux Klan.

There are extremist nut jobs in every religion who will interpret their faith however they see fit.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

Looks like a search is in order......heh...

What are you, a moron?  Hurry up and post it already.

[kakie]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man

Wouldn't Muslims who don't practice this type of Islam join in with everyone to help bring pressure on the world to stop the practice of this version of Islam?

I'm going to give you a pass this time Jeffrey.  I'm serious about one at a time.

First, it's a judgment call.  I've been accused of diversion tactics when I reference Christianity, but what you are asking of Islam is discriminatory.   You refuse to apply the same rules to Christianity.

Should they?  Maybe.  It's a judgment call.  And maybe most of Christianity should be more vocal about Christian atrocities as well, they aren't.  I don't judge that, you do.  There's the difference.

Discuss...

Michael, it would be most helpful and respectful of you to others if you would stop calling people names and using foul language.  It's not very becoming.

So, if I understood you right you said that maybe Muslims should join to bring pressure on the world against the strick form of Islam.

Is that correct?

[MichaelC]

Point taken.  I need to take these one at a time, and there's going to have to be discussion about them.  I'm not taking a quiz, and some of this stuff has already been answered, it was just ignored.  Let's keep it small and sharp, one question at a time.

quote:Originally posted by kakie

So, if I understood you right you said that maybe Muslims should join to bring pressure on the world against the strick form of Islam.

Is that correct?

Maybe, that also means maybe not.  It's a judgment call.

There's no requirement that they do, and there may be good reasons, especially in this climate, to stay silent.  You look at their silence as "approval", I look at it as potentially sound strategy.  If you come out in force, you feed that Christian beast, the one that demands Islam be secondary.

Tactically, silence is fairly sound.  It doesn't usually get you in more trouble than you're in.  And given the forces lined up against them, and their tactics, I'd advise them to remain silent, if I were asked.

[guido911]

Michael C:  You have your hands full here, so you do not need to respond to this. But, in looking through this thread, it appears that anyone who does not agree with or share your position on Islam or your feeling about Duncan refusing the Koran is a bigot, racist, etc...How wonderful it must be to be as enlightened as you.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Michael C:  You have your hands full here, so you do not need to respond to this. But, in looking through this thread, it appears that anyone who does not agree with or share your position on Islam or your feeling about Duncan refusing the Koran is a bigot, racist, etc...How wonderful it must be to be as enlightened as you.

No, anyone who would sit here and post sites that project bigotry, is probably a bigot.  Anyone who would sit here and call Islam a secondary religion that should submit to the demands of our resident Christians, is likely a bigot.

And Enlightened (as in Enlightenment ideals which everyone has to a degree), doesn't mean I can't be a prick about it.  

As soon as you guys want this to be a normal discussion, it will be.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by unknown

There are many Christian organizations and movements that do and have taken part in terrorism...yet we as Americans should only focus on Islam? How many Christians have taken part in a Hate Crime against a Muslim? I'm willing to bet quite a few. Christians are just as dangerous and crazy as Muslims.

Christian Identity
Promise Keepers
Operation Rescue
Phineas Priesthood
The Army of God
Aryan Nations
The Church of Jesus Christ Christian
The Institute for Historic Review
The Order
I shouldn't have to mention the Ku Klux Klan.

There are extremist nut jobs in every religion who will interpret their faith however they see fit.

Rosie??? Is that you?  I didn't know we had a celeb on the board...

Just keep ignoring the empirical evidence that proves you wrong...it's easier that way.

[kakie]

From Michael C
"No, anyone who would sit here and post sites that project bigotry, is probably a bigot. Anyone who would sit here and call Islam a secondary religion that should submit to the demands of our resident Christians, is likely a bigot."

WHAT?

Muslims are only 1-2% of our population, at most.  Islam is most definitely a very minor religion in terms of its followers in America.

Most Muslims are born in Muslim run countries and are forced to be Muslims. They DO NOT HAVE RELIGOUS FREEDOM.  There are very serious penalties - even death to switch from Islam.

Muslims are taught in the Quran their religion is superior to all other religions. What about verse 9.29?  I do realize this verse was in a chapter about waging war but this tax is demanded of non-muslims in many Islamic countries.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I find Islam a very troubling religion. I am expressing that concern.   I've studied for a couple years now searching for its love for all and have yet to find it.  In fact, the more I study it the more I do not respect it.  I'm being honest.  

When you respond to questions by attacking the questioner calling them a bigot, you actual help confirm how deeply troubling Islam is to me.

I;m always open to learn more and that it what I've been trying to do here but your responses only help confirm what I have studied so far.

Now remember Michael, you cannot call me names per your agreement anymore. So when you reply, keep that in mind.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by kakie
Muslims are taught in the Quran their religion is superior to all other religions.

I am no religious scholar, but don't most religions teach that their type is superior to others?

I have never heard of a church saying their faith is not the best.

"Our God may be in last place this season, but we have some good draft choices coming up."

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by kakie

From Michael C
"No, anyone who would sit here and post sites that project bigotry, is probably a bigot. Anyone who would sit here and call Islam a secondary religion that should submit to the demands of our resident Christians, is likely a bigot."

WHAT?

I'll assume that's a question.  Which part of that did you not understand?  

Bigotry is bigotry.  Now, if you fit either one of those two up above, then I understand your reaction.  But, I can't control your reaction, and I don't care how offensive the word sounds to you.  If it applies, it applies.  

Now, if you want to sit here and discuss why you are a bigot, or why you are not a bigot, that's fine.  I'm ready for that.  Otherwise, are we done with the last question you asked?