Oklahoma lawmaker shows prejudice against Islam

[jne]

quote:Originally posted by kakie


Muslims are only 1-2% of our population, at most.  Islam is most definitely a very minor religion in terms of its followers in America.

Islam is the worlds 2nd largest religion and many agree that it is the fastest growing religion.  The world is bigger than the U.S. and until we realize this, we will continue to have many of the same problems we are having now.

quote:Originally posted by kakie
Most Muslims are born in Muslim run countries and are forced to be Muslims. They DO NOT HAVE RELIGOUS FREEDOM.  There are very serious penalties - even death to switch from Islam.

What Christian church doesn't indoctrinate their children to some degree??  And death to anyone who switches from Islam - what a bunch of alarmist crap.  I happen to know people who have left Islam behind that are still standing upright.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by kakie

From Michael C
"No, anyone who would sit here and post sites that project bigotry, is probably a bigot. Anyone who would sit here and call Islam a secondary religion that should submit to the demands of our resident Christians, is likely a bigot."

WHAT?

Muslims are only 1-2% of our population, at most.  Islam is most definitely a very minor religion in terms of its followers in America.

Most Muslims are born in Muslim run countries and are forced to be Muslims. They DO NOT HAVE RELIGOUS FREEDOM.  There are very serious penalties - even death to switch from Islam.

Muslims are taught in the Quran their religion is superior to all other religions. What about verse 9.29?  I do realize this verse was in a chapter about waging war but this tax is demanded of non-muslims in many Islamic countries.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I find Islam a very troubling religion. I am expressing that concern.   I've studied for a couple years now searching for its love for all and have yet to find it.  In fact, the more I study it the more I do not respect it.  I'm being honest.  

When you respond to questions by attacking the questioner calling them a bigot, you actual help confirm how deeply troubling Islam is to me.

I;m always open to learn more and that it what I've been trying to do here but your responses only help confirm what I have studied so far.

Now remember Michael, you cannot call me names per your agreement anymore. So when you reply, keep that in mind.

Kakie,

When dealing with the world's second largest religion, one whose members often have a proclivity to violence in the name of that religion, what do YOU think is the best course of action?

Is it best to condemn the entire religion, all aspects? That only serves to validate that this is a "holy war" between evil, ungodly and Allah hating Christianity (which is what radical Islam wants to paint us as) or is the wiser course one where we show ourselves be easily accepting of the more moderate elements of Islam. Show we show that we don't hate Islam, just those that kill the innocent under the guise of Islam. We need to show that Christianity doesn't have to be the enemy and that this isn't a holy war. Radical Islam wants to unite all Muslims in the world together for a holy war. Do you think it's a good idea to further that goal by making all Muslims are our enemies?

Look, you can always show ugly parts of the Quran, just like there are ugly parts of the Bible that most of us chose to ignore as only the product of the times in which it was written. The bible includes stonings, human sacrifice (of children!), raining frogs and an "eye for an eye". There's some pretty interesting stuff in our book too that some people firmly believe in that others do not. There are plenty of Christians that take the Bible as the inerrant word of God that think the world is 6,000 years old and some others that think that Jesus went to Utah and told us not to drink coffee.

Why don't we try to condemn the elements of Islam that would kill all infidels and support those that think that's more than a little nuts instead of grouping all of the billion followers of Islam into one and condemn them as our enemies.

A private citizen can accept or refuse a gift all they want. But these are elected officials and all of them likely have Muslims that they represent in their districts. They have symbolically all rejected the religion of a segment of their constituency and Duncan has directly denounced all followers of that religion murderers or supporters of murder.

[Jeff Man]

quote:Originally posted by kakie

From Michael C
"No, anyone who would sit here and post sites that project bigotry, is probably a bigot. Anyone who would sit here and call Islam a secondary religion that should submit to the demands of our resident Christians, is likely a bigot."

WHAT?

Muslims are only 1-2% of our population, at most.  Islam is most definitely a very minor religion in terms of its followers in America.

Most Muslims are born in Muslim run countries and are forced to be Muslims. They DO NOT HAVE RELIGOUS FREEDOM.  There are very serious penalties - even death to switch from Islam.

Muslims are taught in the Quran their religion is superior to all other religions. What about verse 9.29?  I do realize this verse was in a chapter about waging war but this tax is demanded of non-muslims in many Islamic countries.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I find Islam a very troubling religion. I am expressing that concern.   I've studied for a couple years now searching for its love for all and have yet to find it.  In fact, the more I study it the more I do not respect it.  I'm being honest.  

When you respond to questions by attacking the questioner calling them a bigot, you actual help confirm how deeply troubling Islam is to me.

I;m always open to learn more and that it what I've been trying to do here but your responses only help confirm what I have studied so far.

Now remember Michael, you cannot call me names per your agreement anymore. So when you reply, keep that in mind.

Kakie brought up some excellent points here.  In The United States Islam is a minor religion in terms of its followers.  This is a fact.

In Most Muslims Countries you are forced to be a Muslims.  There is no religious freedom.  This is a fact.

Kakie find Islam, the religion itself troubling.  Not one post here that has responded has helped to ease Kakie's concerns.  Not one.  Instead it is bigotry for her to talk.  Most Interesting.

Can we count how many times Michael C has used the word bigot or bigotry?  He does nothing to help put Islam in a better light.  Nothing.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man

Can we count how many times Michael C has used the word bigot or bigotry?  He does nothing to help put Islam in a better light.  Nothing.

What are you, her dad?

If you want to talk about bigotry, I'm game.  As soon as you get past it, we're all cool.

Like Fonzi.

I know you are hard of hearing, and maybe incapable of understanding the words I'm typing up right now.  So again....

If the discussion is going to be about whether or not you are a bigot, I'm cool with that.  Otherwise, if you want it to be about something else, move on.

If you really want a discussion, let's have it and stop screwing around.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man

quote:Originally posted by kakie

From Michael C
"No, anyone who would sit here and post sites that project bigotry, is probably a bigot. Anyone who would sit here and call Islam a secondary religion that should submit to the demands of our resident Christians, is likely a bigot."

WHAT?

Muslims are only 1-2% of our population, at most.  Islam is most definitely a very minor religion in terms of its followers in America.

Most Muslims are born in Muslim run countries and are forced to be Muslims. They DO NOT HAVE RELIGOUS FREEDOM.  There are very serious penalties - even death to switch from Islam.

Muslims are taught in the Quran their religion is superior to all other religions. What about verse 9.29?  I do realize this verse was in a chapter about waging war but this tax is demanded of non-muslims in many Islamic countries.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I find Islam a very troubling religion. I am expressing that concern.   I've studied for a couple years now searching for its love for all and have yet to find it.  In fact, the more I study it the more I do not respect it.  I'm being honest.  

When you respond to questions by attacking the questioner calling them a bigot, you actual help confirm how deeply troubling Islam is to me.

I;m always open to learn more and that it what I've been trying to do here but your responses only help confirm what I have studied so far.

Now remember Michael, you cannot call me names per your agreement anymore. So when you reply, keep that in mind.

Kakie brought up some excellent points here.  In The United States Islam is a minor religion in terms of its followers.  This is a fact.

In Most Muslims Countries you are forced to be a Muslims.  There is no religious freedom.  This is a fact.

Kakie find Islam, the religion itself troubling.  Not one post here that has responded has helped to ease Kakie's concerns.  Not one.  Instead it is bigotry for her to talk.  Most Interesting.

Can we count how many times Michael C has used the word bigot or bigotry?  He does nothing to help put Islam in a better light.  Nothing.

Mr. Jeff Man

Be easy on MichaelC.  He clearly disagrees with Kakie's views on Islam and strongly disagrees with Christianity's views and it's historical perspective regarding Islam.

Furthermore MichaelC is obstinately convinced of the superiority and correctness of his own opinion and he is prejudiced against Kakie's opinion.  

Thus the name calling.

But I wonder who would be considered the "bigot" ?

Perhaps MichaelC should choose a different word?

bigoted
adjective
obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of one's own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions.

. . .see dictionaries are fun.

Stupid english language!

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man
In Most Muslims Countries you are forced to be a Muslims.  There is no religious freedom.  This is a fact.

Document this,

Which Muslim country "forces" all residents to be Muslim? I bet you can't find two, much less "most". This is not a fact, even Iran has religous minorities that coexist.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

Very fun:

http://www.answers.com/bigotry&r=67

Bigotry:

quote:noun

Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion: intolerance, prejudice.

Bigot:

quote:n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

We're not playing a game, and I'm not taking a quiz.  Again, for the fourth time, for you fools that still can't comprehend it, if you want to be about whether or not you qualify as a bigot, I'm cool with that.  It's your choice.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by guido911

What a horrible answer. My question is where is your proof that the KKK is rooted in Christianity.

Maybe you had a horrible question.  If you want me to answer a question, ask it and stop screwing around.  Just search anything on the internet for Klan literature, you'll find references.  Klan literature is inundated with Protestant references.

Or try this on for size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

quote:Indiana's Klansmen represented a wide cross section of society: they were not disproportionately urban or rural, nor were they significantly more or less likely than other members of society to be from the working class, middle class, or professional ranks. Klansmen were Protestants, of course, but they cannot be described exclusively or even predominantly as fundamentalists. In reality, their religious affiliations mirrored the whole of white Protestant society, including those who did not belong to any church.

First, did you even bother to read the entire Wiki article? Had you done so, you would have learned the roots of the Klan was not in Christianity--as you claimed.

As for your post, the fact that Klan literature may be "inundated" with Protestant references does not mean that its roots are in Christianity. Hell, even your quoted part makes no mention that the Klan has its roots in Christianity.

How about you quit screwing around and produce the facts that the Klan has its roots in Christianity--as you claimed. Otherwise, stop showing either your ignorance or bigotry towards Christians--which, in case you do not know, comprises at least 80% of our population.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

As for your post, the fact that Klan literature may be "inundated" with Protestant references does not mean that its roots are in Christianity. Hell, even your quoted part makes no mention that the Klan has its roots in Christianity.

Oh, so you're asking something completely different now.  Are you asking where the Biblical justification is?  I'll show you if that's what you're looking for.

Otherwise, it's widely known you have to be a Protestant to be Klan.

[kakie]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man
In Most Muslims Countries you are forced to be a Muslims.  There is no religious freedom.  This is a fact.

Document this,

Which Muslim country "forces" all residents to be Muslim? I bet you can't find two, much less "most". This is not a fact, even Iran has religous minorities that coexist.

I diagree with you. There are a number of countries that have Islam as their official religion.  One is listed below.  I get more if you like.

Saudi Arabia:  Freedom of religion does not exist. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. Religious freedom is not recognized or protected under the laws, and basic religious freedoms are denied to all but those who adhere to the state-sanctioned version of Sunni Islam. Citizens are denied the freedom to choose or change their religion, and many noncitizens, including Muslims, practice their beliefs under severe restrictions. The Government limits the practice of all but the officially sanctioned version of Islam and prohibits the public practice of other religions.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51609.htm

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man
In Most Muslims Countries you are forced to be a Muslims.  There is no religious freedom.  This is a fact.

Document this,

Which Muslim country "forces" all residents to be Muslim? I bet you can't find two, much less "most". This is not a fact, even Iran has religous minorities that coexist.

I don't believe they "force" you to believe in Islam as much as they punish you for deciding not to...check out human rights watch and read about religious tolerance in ME countries...I'll save you the suspense and tell you it's practically nonexistent.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by kakie

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man
In Most Muslims Countries you are forced to be a Muslims.  There is no religious freedom.  This is a fact.

Document this,

Which Muslim country "forces" all residents to be Muslim? I bet you can't find two, much less "most". This is not a fact, even Iran has religous minorities that coexist.

I diagree with you. There are a number of countries that have Islam as their official religion.  One is listed below.  I get more if you like.

Saudi Arabia:  Freedom of religion does not exist. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. Religious freedom is not recognized or protected under the laws, and basic religious freedoms are denied to all but those who adhere to the state-sanctioned version of Sunni Islam. Citizens are denied the freedom to choose or change their religion, and many noncitizens, including Muslims, practice their beliefs under severe restrictions. The Government limits the practice of all but the officially sanctioned version of Islam and prohibits the public practice of other religions.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51609.htm

You kinda fell into my trap on this one.

There is the one, and they are our "friends". It is why I asked for TWO.

In the case of most other Muslim nations, they have "state" religions, but then so do many European nations. The UK has The Church of England, Ireland has Catholicism etc. That's not to mean that other religions are not oppressed to some degree in many Muslim nations, but to say that all citizens are required to be Muslim, to my knowledge only our good friends the Saudis will go that far. Well, they do and the Taliban did before we kicked them out of power.

And before we act all superior over Islam with regards to the oppression of other religions, go read about the Spanish inquisition. And then consider that for the government to brand all followers of a religion as murderers could easily be thought of as oppression. And this is exactly what has just happened here in Oklahoma.

[MichaelC]

quote:I don't believe they "force" you to believe in Islam as much as they punish you for deciding not to...check out human rights watch and read about religious tolerance in ME countries...I'll save you the suspense and tell you it's practically nonexistent.

I don't believe you'll have that type of situation here.  The gov't is secular enough, vigilant enough, strong enough, and has enough resources, to keep large religious movements in check.  Only the small ones have a chance, like those kooks in San Francisco who killed themselves in order to catch a spaceship.

The Saudi's rely on religion and clerics to keep them in power.  Without using Islam, they'd only have a bunch of pissed off poor people.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Man
In Most Muslims Countries you are forced to be a Muslims.  There is no religious freedom.  This is a fact.

Document this,

Which Muslim country "forces" all residents to be Muslim? I bet you can't find two, much less "most". This is not a fact, even Iran has religous minorities that coexist.

Um. . . That's completly correct!  To be a citizen of Saudi Arabia you MUST be a muslem.  They actually have a police force called the Mutaween that inforce religious law.  Many offences such as converting to Christianity, Judaism, or being in possion of religious artifacts not associated with Islam carry the death pennalty.  Atheism is also punishable by death.

You are correct, in Iraq you can be of another religion you just woulden't want anyone to know about it.

The constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran recognizes only Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism as official religions. No other religious practice is legally accepted in Iran. Conversion from Islam to any other religion is considered apostasy and publicizing it can result in harassment and religious persecution. Apostasy still retains a death sentence but in recent years this has not been used.

Legally Sunni Muslims are accepted as fellow Muslims, while Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians are recognised as People of the Book and have certain legal rights insofar as members of these religions are born and brought up within their religion.
Though Sufis are considered Muslims in principle by the government, divergent practices, teaching and secretive organisation have for several of these orders led to governmental distrust and harassment at various times.

For adherents of non-recognized religions, such as Bahá'ís, evangelical Christians, the Ahl-e Haqq, and Mandaeans, or converts from an Islamic background who are considered heretics, enrollment in public university programs or work in government agencies or judiciary is not permitted and can only be achieved by wrongly identifying oneself.

As Bahá'ís or Christian converts may not deny their faith, this is not acceptable to them; and they are therefore totally prevented from such participation.

Due to these restrictions on dissident religious faiths and practices, and due to the persecution of some minorities, the Iranian government has, like the government of the Shah, been severely criticized on multiple occasions by international human rights organizations, foreign governments and the United Nations.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by guido911

As for your post, the fact that Klan literature may be "inundated" with Protestant references does not mean that its roots are in Christianity. Hell, even your quoted part makes no mention that the Klan has its roots in Christianity.

Oh, so you're asking something completely different now.  Are you asking where the Biblical justification is?  I'll show you if that's what you're looking for.

Otherwise, it's widely known you have to be a Protestant to be Klan.

Michael C:
First, Kakie has made a very accurate observation about you:

"Do you see what you are doing, Michael? You are refusing to answer[] specific questions about statements you made by trying to turn it around on me and making it my problem...Please answer the questions about what you wrote."

Michael, you wrote on page 7 of this thread the following:  "How many Christian groups would denounce the Klan, while at the same time denying the Klan's Christian roots?"

I asked you to prove that was accurate. First you produced information that was both contrived and a flat misrepresentation. Now, you accuse me of changing the subject. What you are doing is "refusing to answer[] specific questions about statements you made by trying to turn it around on me and making it my problem," which was Kakie's astute observation.  

You know what, don't bother trying to prove that the Klan has "Christian roots", I know its crap.