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Oklahoma lawmaker shows prejudice against Islam

Started by perspicuity85, October 23, 2007, 03:34:59 AM

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guido911

Michael C: "You're attacking the rights of American citizens, specifically because they follow Islam."

And YOU'RE attacking the rights of this legislator, an American citizen serving in the military no less, because he follows his faith. Do you even take the time and read what you have written earlier before you post? Talk about making it easy...
Someone get Hoss a pacifier.

guido911

Does anyone know why it was necessary for Gov. Henry to create this Ethnic-American entity? I mean, did he feel the middle and near east was not adequately represented in Oklahoma? If so, why be such a wuss about and call it what it is rather than this BS/PC Ethnic American agency.
Someone get Hoss a pacifier.

rwarn17588

Michael Bates wrote:

Radical Islam has no chance of taking hold? Tell that to the moderate Muslims who founded a mosque in a Chicago suburb 50 years ago, only to be pushed aside by increasingly radical leadership.

<end clip>

Big deal. You found one case, in which there may be a handful over the years, in one religion that makes up less than 1 percent of the U.S. population.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. My assertion stands.

But if you want to live in unreasoning fear, that's your prerogative.

RecycleMichael

As disappointed as I am with these legislators refusing a gift from a different faith, I am not taking the side of the Muslim group passing these out either.

They had to know that certain legislators were going to make a big deal out of refusing the books. I believe they did this in full knowledge that this would identify the elected officials.

It was a set up and 22 of the legislators fell for it.

The elected officials should have quietly accepted the books, then given them away or disposed of them in some other manner. Instead, the idiot Rex Duncan called a press conference to sound like an uniformed bigot.

There are no winners here and all of Oklahoma lost on this one.
Power is nothing till you use it.

swake

quote:
Originally posted by guido911

Michael C: "You're attacking the rights of American citizens, specifically because they follow Islam."

And YOU'RE attacking the rights of this legislator, an American citizen serving in the military no less, because he follows his faith. Do you even take the time and read what you have written earlier before you post? Talk about making it easy...



The ugliness comes from the fact that he felt the need for a press conference on why he won't take the gift, and the fact the he is an elected official and assuredly has Muslim people in his district that he is supposed to represent, and instead has called killers just based on their religion. If that's not what we should be against, than what is?  A very ugly offshoot of Islam has high-jacked the religion, are we going to allow the same?

I really don't feel much better about born again Christians (who often are hypocritical asses) telling me that I am going to hell unless I join their narrow and to me, misguided view of what it is to be Christian.   The leaflets on cars when I leave my church saying I belong to a cult with pictures of people burning in hell is a very nice touch and make it clear that there is little difference.

Talk to the gay people that get lynched by "Christians", talk about Timothy McVeigh and his crowd, they misused Christianity too. And while we are talking about how much better we are consider the fact that we are wealthier and safer. If we were desperate and poor, I firmly believe that we, the United States, could get really ugly, really quick. Read what Friendly Bear wrote again about "death from the sky" and tell me I'm wrong.





MichaelC

quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael

As disappointed as I am with these legislators refusing a gift from a different faith, I am not taking the side of the Muslim group passing these out either.

They had to know that certain legislators were going to make a big deal out of refusing the books. I believe they did this in full knowledge that this would identify the elected officials.


Damn fine point.  I don't think anyone is taking their side as far as, reaction from the legislators, or decision to send it.  I will however defend their right to send it.  Some, primarily Bates, have nothing to do but attack the group for the exclusive reason that it's centered around countries that are primarily Islamic.  As if American citizens, from those countries, or from that religion, have no rights here.  That's the only plain where that group has the moral high ground, and the only plain I'll defend them on.

The legislator, and all the legislators that signed on for this deal technically did nothing wrong, outside of turning it into a PR campaign.  It was simply unethical, immoral, and void of character.  It is, however, typical for a politician to pander.  There is another overriding fact no one seems to be touching about this stunt.  For some of these politicians, it probably has been a very good move, career-wise.

kakie

What accompanied the Quran was a letter that preached the Quran was the exact word of God. I think this could have been considered offensive.

Islam is not only a religion but a ruling system, as well. Muslims truly believe the Quran supercedes the Bible, is the only true religion in the world and that Christians and Jews are on the wrong side.

There are many verses in the Quran that endorse killing of others who are perceived to stand in the way of Allah. Did you know that Islam is the only religion that promises a grade higher in paradise if you die while fighting for Allah. Islam is also the only religion whose prophet allowed lying in order to gain an advantage over its enemy.

Since we are told by Muslims that the verses in the Quran are the exact word of God, we need to know when they are applicable. As citizens, we must ask Muslims to be honest and accountable for what is taught in the Quran. We need to know how these exact words of God are taught in mosques.

The following chapters in the Quran give clear instruction about fighting and dying for Allah. How is this taught in the mosque near your neighborhood?

Chapter 4.74: Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

4.95: Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.

Let's not forget, America's founding fathers struggled for decades against Islamic rulers and their pirates which claimed American lives and treasury.

"Contemporary scholars estimate that over 1 million white Christians from France and Italy to Spain, Hol­land, Great Britain, the Americas, and even Iceland were captured between 1500 and 1800...the victims of these mari­time hijackings would languish in fetid prisons, unsure of when, or even if, they would ever be redeemed. Many perished or simply disappeared in the White Slave trade. The only other escape was conversion. Embracing Islam—"turning Turk"—instantly changed one's status and prospects."

In verse 5.18 we see how the Jews and the Christians tried to explain to Mohammad that they were the children of God but he challenges them and said God was punishing them for their sins and they are not the chosen ones. Mohammad then declared that Islam is the true religion and that they, the Jews and Christians, are on the wrong side.

9.29: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the (tax of inferority) Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Israel is a big deal now with Muslims. Do you know any Muslim who believe it has a right to exist?  Start asking them about this.

There are several verses in the Quran which verified the existence of the land of Israel. Here is one verse:

10.93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best...

Arabs have 99% of the land in the Middle East but yet many want Israel gone. Can you see why the denial of Israel's right to exist is insulting and hurtful to Christians and Jews whose ancient scripture evolves around Israel since before Christ?

Why is Palestine not mentioned at all in the Quran? I don't believe it came into existence until after Israel was dominated by another empire - perhaps sometime after the Roman Empire or during the Islamic Ottoman Empire.

Just some food for thought.


MichaelC

quote:
Originally posted by kakie

What accompanied the Quran was a letter that preached the Quran was the exact word of God. I think this could have been considered offensive.


Then recycle it.  Throw away.  No one cares.

"But we might offend some Muslim if we throw it away"...not if they don't know about it.  RM's probably right, these politicians may have been baited, but they were also dumb enough or smart enough to take it.  Whatever the case may be.

As for the rest of your post, I don't mind going over every point with you by private message.  There are some misunderstandings there, but the answers would consume this page and the next.

guido911

SWAKE:  I am not quite ready to read anything from Friendly Bear after the thread on BOK taking vengeance on North Tulsa following the river vote. Too many painful memories and nightmares about the tax vampire out there...
Someone get Hoss a pacifier.

Conan71

There are plenty of examples of religious sects which seem rather innocuous at first which have turned out to become a radical cult which has destroyed lives.  I don't have a problem of keeping an eye on those which spew perverted messages of spirituality.

However, it's completely moronic to characterize an entire religion by the actions of a small number of nutjobs.
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first" -Ronald Reagan


MichaelC

quote:
Originally posted by guido911

Does anyone know why it was necessary for Gov. Henry to create this Ethnic-American entity? I mean, did he feel the middle and near east was not adequately represented in Oklahoma? If so, why be such a wuss about and call it what it is rather than this BS/PC Ethnic American agency.



It's not PC, it's complicated.

If you call it "Muslim-American Council", you'd have to include Muslims from all over the planet (like Indonesia and Nigeria), and exclude large swaths of the Middle East and the Near East.  You'd kick Zoroastrians, Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other religion out automatically.

If you call it "Arab-American Council", you exclude Iranians, Turks, Pakistanis, Afghans, Israelis, Kurds, Armenians....then you include a bunch of African countries like Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Mauritania, etc.

And lastly, their stated goals have nothing to do with religion (Islam, Christianity, Jewish, or other), only culture, ethnicity.  Their scope is much broader than religion.

There is no one term that actually describes the Near and Middle East.  Throwing them under the generic term "Ethnic" seems quite reasonable.

MichaelBates

quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC

If you call it "Muslim-American Council", you'd have to include Muslims from all over the planet (like Indonesia and Nigeria), and exclude large swaths of the Middle East and the Near East.  You'd kick Zoroastrians, Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other religion out automatically.

If you call it "Arab-American Council", you exclude Iranians, Turks, Pakistanis, Afghans, Israelis, Kurds, Armenians....then you include a bunch of African countries like Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Mauritania, etc.

And lastly, their stated goals have nothing to do with religion (Islam, Christianity, Jewish, or other), only culture, ethnicity.  Their scope is much broader than religion.

There is no one term that actually describes the Near and Middle East.  Throwing them under the generic term "Ethnic" seems quite reasonable.



I'd like to think you're right, but their stated goals don't match up to their actions or membership. Every public action this council has taken so far has concerned the Islamic faith -- encouraging schools to grant excused absences for Muslim holy days, asking for rebuttal time on OETA to the PBS series "America at a Crossroads" because, according to the council's chairman, "we thought there were a couple of segments that did not put Islam in a positive light," and now passing out Qurans at the state legislature. While those actions would be reasonable for a private organization representing Oklahoma Muslims, they don't suggest a government-sponsored council seeking to represent the diversity of religions in the Middle East.

Is there even one Israeli Jew, one Lebanese or Armenian or Syrian or Palestinian or Coptic (Egyptian) Christian, one Iranian Baha'i or Zoroastrian on the Governor's Ethnic-American Advisory Council? I haven't found one yet. Where I've been able to find some indication on the web of a member's religion, it's always been Muslim. Oklahoma has a sizable Lebanese Christian community that dates back prior to statehood, but I don't see any Saieds, Bayouths, Besharas, Eliases, or Courys on the list of council members.

Could it be that the Governor wanted to create a Muslim advisory council, perhaps at the request of a supporter, but thought it would cause trouble to come right out and call it that?

Wingnut

Nihad Awad, Co-founder and former National Chairman of CAIR, former board member of CAIR-Los Angeles (CAIR-California), and former President of CAIR's (dissolved) parent organization, the Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP)

       'If you choose to live here (in America)... you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam,' he said. Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith but to become dominant, he said. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth, he said." (Lisa Gardiner, San Ramon Valley Herald, 'American Muslim leader urges faithful to spread Islam's message,' July 4, 1998)

CAIR's founder and executive director, Nihad Awad, was the IAP's public relations director with a long history of extremism. Awad openly praised Iran's notorious Ayatollah Khomeini. He blasted the trial and conviction of the 1993 World Trade Center bombers - against whom the evidence of guilt was overwhelming - as "a travesty of justice." At a 1994 Barry University forum, he candidly stated, "I am in support of the Hamas movement." (Hamas and Hizzoner, By John Perazzo, FrontPageMagazine.com  Wednesday, March 05, 2003)

Maybe this is what Rep. Duncan and others were thinking about when they declined to accept the Koran.

swake

quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut
       'If you choose to live here (in America)... you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam,' he said. Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith but to become dominant, he said. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth, he said." (Lisa Gardiner, San Ramon Valley Herald, 'American Muslim leader urges faithful to spread Islam's message,' July 4, 1998)



And how this is different than Evangelical Christianity's effort to convert and "save" everyone in this nation?

Evangelicals and their war on the first amendment, gays, abortion, evolution and any science that conflicts with what is in the Bible. Evangelicals and their war on public schools and any school whose teaching is not based on the Bible. Their war to take over the Supreme Court.

Their war in fact on anyone in public life that does not believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God, which correct me if I am wrong, that would be the part that is so offensive about this gift of the Koran, that the giver believes it to be the inerrant word of God. It's evangelical Christians that are a danger to our freedom of religion in this country, not Muslims.