Take from the rich...

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I strongly dislike the "because they can" rationale...

But there really is no other rationale; I'm not going to lie to you.  It is what it is.  We have a societal framework where, in theory, nobody is completely abandoned.  The rationale for why that's there, some would say, is because we are an enlightened and beneficent society.  Maybe some people think that's true, but I think a lot of us, rich and poor, selfish or not, understand that the alternative to a civil, stable, society is mobs in the street and "let them eat cake".  Rolling heads are never far behind.

Oh, and I think you probably know by now that I am not the guy to be lecturing anybody on behavior.[]

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I strongly dislike the "because they can" rationale...

But there really is no other rationale; I'm not going to lie to you.  It is what it is.  We have a societal framework where, in theory, nobody is completely abandoned.  The rationale for why that's there, some would say, is because we are an enlightened and beneficent society.  Maybe some people think that's true, but I think a lot of us, rich and poor, selfish or not, understand that the alternative to a civil, stable, society is mobs in the street and "let them eat cake".  Rolling heads are never far behind.

Oh, and I think you probably know by now that I am not the guy to be lecturing anybody on behavior.[]

Chicken,
Be comforted in the fact that your side will eventually win, it is natural for governments like ours to evolve in to a more liberal state where wealth is taken and redistributed.  As conservitives all we can do is attempt to delay this natural process as long a possable.  We are seeing a great socialist movement today.  Education, healthcare, savings, all flowing through the hands of the government.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

--Alexander Tyler wrote this 100 years ago.  He was talking about Athens.

We are on the path.  Most are demanding government to pay for our lifestyles. But a few of us recognize the independence of the human spirit and must forcefully denounce recognition of the state as our mother, father or wet-nurse!  

I am not wealthy, and I do not want one man's wealth taken and given to me.  Let me sink, let me swim, let me be free!

(Que. the National Anthem)

[tim huntzinger]

Right, Rangel's tax hike to replace the ATM is a sign of America's doom, foretold by some geezer a century ago, setting us on a path of totalitarianism that is going to lead to the deaths of millions.  We have a progressive tax rate, it sliiiiiiides up sometimes and sometimes it sliiiiiiides down.  No great big hairy deal.  All this gloom and doom high-horse catastrophizing is ridiculous.

[cannon_fodder]

We are largely in agreement CL... but there are a few taxation sticking points that will just have to remain.

Tim:  Hitler was a war hero too, does that mean I can not criticize him?  But in reality, I was not comparing the man to any of the others.  I merely said those listed would approve if his idea.

[tim huntzinger]

Hitler suffered some mild lung damage in a trench; Rangel led 40 soldiers from an encirclement of Chinese in freezing weather (half the battalion was killed), and was awarded the Purple Heart and Medal of Valor.

No, I do not think the dictators would approve of Congress working together to craft an alternative to the ATM which, upon approval of the President, and notwithstanding a Court challenge, be enacted until a democratically elected government amended that tax.  Zippo in common. Nada alli.  Nyet.

[cannon_fodder]

Hitler was a field medic, one of the most dangerous jobs in World War I.  For all the many, many, MANY bad things one can list about Hitler at very least his WWI service record was admirable.

and I was not talking about them approving our system of government, I was talking about those listed approving of further redistribution of wealth by state control. That was pretty clear in my comment:

quote:Take it because they have it and give it because they don't. Marx, Lenin, Mao, Hugo, Fidel, and Pol Pot would be so proud.

Any indication that I was calling the form of government into question or is it perfectly clear I was commenting on redistribution of wealth?  Either you failed to get the meaning out of those two sentences and there is no real point in talking to you further, or you got the meaning and chose to act the fool in which case there is no further point in talking to you.

[USRufnex]

Yeah, CF... and using your logic, your views would make a southern plantation slave owner proud!

Let's go back to this so-called "attack on the rich."

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20071024%5cACQDJON200710242253DOWJONESDJONLINE001107.htm&

UPDATE:Rangel Tax Plan's Centerpiece Is 30.5% Top Corp Rate

(Updates with source saying all industries included in proposal to tax financial managers' carried interest as regular income)

By John Godfrey

OF DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- Corporations would see their top tax rate cut to 30.5% from 35% under a tax plan unveiled Wednesday by House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., to fellow committee members.

Rangel plans to publicly announce the plan Thursday morning.

To offset the cost of the lower tax rate, the plan would alter a number of business tax provisions, according to lawmakers, congressional staff and lobbyists familiar with the plan as outlined Wednesday night.

The plan will repeal a tax deduction for domestic manufacturers. It will prevent companies from using an accounting method known as last-in, first-out, or LIFO, that can cut their taxes during times of rising prices. Repealing LIFO could result in a substantial tax for companies currently using the method, but aides briefed on the plan say the change would be phased in over eight years, thereby blunting the initial impact.

The plan would also require companies to defer deductions for certain expenses of foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies until the money is repatriated to the U.S.

A lobbyist tracking the bill said the provision would likely hurt those who benefited most from an October 2004 Act allowing a one-time amnesty to repatriate foreign income at reduced tax rates. Companies lobbied for the break arguing they would be able to use the money to create new jobs, but there has been little evidence to suggest that is what happened.

"That's going to get thrown into their faces," the lobbyist said.

Middle and upper-middle income families would benefit under the plan by a repeal of the alternative minimum tax starting Jan. 1, 2008.

Upper-income families, however, would pay for that repeal with a 4% surtax on incomes above $150,000 for a single earner or incomes above $200,000 for a married couple. That surtax would grow to 4.6% for incomes above $500,000.

The surtax will also make possible an expansion of the earned income tax credit, an increase in the standard deduction, and an increase in the value of the child tax credit for those earning too little to owe federal income taxes.

A third section of the plan would address a number of pressing tax issues, including a temporary patch of the alternative minimum tax prior to Jan. 1, 2008, and the extension of a number of expiring tax provisions.

Absent a patch, the alternative minimum tax will expand to hit roughly 25 million taxpayers, up from 4.4 million in 2006, increasing their taxes by a total of nearly $50 billion, according to congressional estimates.

Expiring tax breaks, known colloquially on Capitol Hill as "extenders," include the research-and-development tax credit, tax breaks for teachers buying schools supplies and a deduction for state and local sales taxes.

Part of the cost of the third section of the bill would be offset by taxing carried interest paid to financial managers as regular income and not as capital gains. While some said the change wouldn't apply to real estate investment trust managers, a source familiar with the plan said all industries are included.

Revenue-raising measures in this third section also include a tax on deferred compensation plans of offshore hedge funds and a requirement that financial service providers give customers information on basis of sold securities.

The plan also changes current laws to require small businesses in the services sector to pay payroll taxes for their workers.

Rangel doesn't expect his plan to come to a vote before the House this year. But the third section of temporary provisions will be stripped from the plan and introduced as a separate bill next week.

Rangel said Wednesday night he may disaggregrate the bill further, splitting the third section into an AMT patch bill and an extenders bill, both with separate revenue offsets.

This two-bill approach could help Senate Democrats maintain fiscal discipline.

Lawmakers there are balking at raising revenues to offset the cost of the AMT bill. Separating the extenders from the AMT bill, therefore, could protect the extenders from getting stuck in that fight, Rangel said Wednesday night.

-By John Godfrey, Dow Jones Newswires; 202-862-6601; John.Godfrey@dowjones.com

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Hitler suffered some mild lung damage in a trench; Rangel led 40 soldiers from an encirclement of Chinese in freezing weather (half the battalion was killed), and was awarded the Purple Heart and Medal of Valor.

No, I do not think the dictators would approve of Congress working together to craft an alternative to the ATM which, upon approval of the President, and notwithstanding a Court challenge, be enacted until a democratically elected government amended that tax.  Zippo in common. Nada alli.  Nyet.

Tim,
I can respect anyone who gives service and displays great courage and leadership in battle.  In that regard they deserve the honor and gratitude of every American.  But that does not make them a great leader in every venue.  

Rangel has a history of proposing some of the most outrageous and ridiculous legislation simply for political/publicity reasons.  From his proposal to reinstate the draft to what they are now calling the "Mother of all Tax Bills" or "Rangel's Gift to Republican Candidates."  I must admit his loose economic understanding and ability to speak frankly with reporters, before actually thinking about what he is saying is pretty good for Republicans.  He is one of the folks that you can always rely on shooting himself, or his party in the foot at a very inappropriate time.  

"Oops! sorry Mr. Dean"  "Oops!  Sorry people of Mississippi." "Oops!  Sorry soldiers."  "Oops! Sorry Martin Luther King family."


and sorry CL I do get a bit melodramatic don't I. []

My wife and I were recently participating in a political conversation at one of our wine dinners, and a young girl with pinkish hair and a pierced bottom lip called me a radical pig because I voiced my opinions on the exact topic we are discussing here.  It was wonderful!

I asked her why she was so angry and she said that "This is America and everything should be fair, we should all share (or something to that extent)."  She then related the sad story that she had just been fired from her job at some law firm for poor attendance and not presenting a professional appearance.  

A bit gregarious from 2 or 3 glasses of wine, I said "I'd probably fire you for that too."  She choked with a full mouth of wine and a thin red spray of Merlot came from around the stud of her lip piercing, spraying everyone sitting around the coffee table.  "I am very professional!" "S#^ew him if he doesn't like the way I look."

This is a better forum, no one gets sprayed with wine!

[tim huntzinger]

Sure, Rangel is doing the Lord's work, then, nothing to worry about.  What a flake, Chair of Ways and Means, huh, sounds like he has really been a failure.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I strongly dislike the "because they can" rationale...

But there really is no other rationale; I'm not going to lie to you.  It is what it is.  We have a societal framework where, in theory, nobody is completely abandoned.  The rationale for why that's there, some would say, is because we are an enlightened and beneficent society.  Maybe some people think that's true, but I think a lot of us, rich and poor, selfish or not, understand that the alternative to a civil, stable, society is mobs in the street and "let them eat cake".  Rolling heads are never far behind.

Oh, and I think you probably know by now that I am not the guy to be lecturing anybody on behavior.[]

There has been several posts in this thread that the rich should be willing to pay more basically to avoid getting killed by angry mobs of poor people. Where does that come from? Stop the baseless fear-mongering, pre-Napoleonic France crap.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by guido911


There has been several posts in this thread that the rich should be willing to pay more basically to avoid getting killed by angry mobs of poor people. Where does that come from? Stop the baseless fear-mongering, pre-Napoleonic France crap.

Hyperbole much?

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

There has been several posts in this thread that the rich should be willing to pay more basically to avoid getting killed by angry mobs of poor people. Where does that come from? Stop the baseless fear-mongering, pre-Napoleonic France crap.

I'm not fear-mongering; sorry, didn't mean to scare you.[:O]  I'm simply pointing out that there is a reason that the rich would want to pay for common goods (like roads) and social goods (like social security).  And that reason IS NOT benevolence.  If you are rich and getting richer at a very fast clip (as the top 1% presently are), then the "system" is working for you and there is real value in keeping it going.

The "system" includes a societal framework that keeps commerce running smoothly and the oft mentioned "have-not's" reasonably quiet and non-threatening.  For a very wealthy person, then, taxes are overhead, simply the cost of doing business in this great country.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Okay, I'll throw out a bone here, why does social security cap at $90K?  Why have a cap on it at all?  If there is an SSI shortfall in the future no doubt if the decision was to shore that up instead of cutting benefits, it will have to come from other tax sources.

They put a cap on it so the rich don't get huge checks out of social security.  Can you imagine what Tiger Woods' social security checks would be if he paid social security tax on all $60M every year?  Please don't tell me they should pay social security tax on all their money but only receive benefits based on the first $90K.

Why, pray tell, would someone like Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, or Tiger Woods need social security benefits in the first place?

I'm just positing the question because some people think an additional 4% in tax on the wealthiest is fair whilst raising the income threshold on who must pay taxes at the lower end.  They keep talking about how SS is going to crater big-time, yet the slowly raising cap apparently isn't going to cover the shortage.

Just seems like a pretty obvious "break" for the rich that the libs on here haven't tapped into yet.

The reason Buffett, Woods and Gates would take THEIR social security is because it is THEIR social security.  I saw an interview with Buffett once who joked about himself getting social security (what a joke it was, that is.... all his money and the government will give him more), but he never said he would decline it.

Social Security was put in place many years ago when the average life expectancy was 63, yet you could start collecting at 65.  The life expectancy is now at 77, yet you still collect at 65.

It was also promised that social security would be optional, that the tax would never go above 1%, .........

[USRufnex]

Funny you should mention Warren Buffett... some quotes...

"There's class warfare, all right," Mr. Buffett said, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."

"I love it when I'm around the country club, and I hear people talking about the debilitating effects of a welfare society," he said. "At the same time, they leave their kids a lifetime and beyond of food stamps. Instead of having a welfare officer, they have a trust officer. And instead of food stamps, they have stocks and bonds."

Mr. Buffett said repealing the estate tax "would be a terrible mistake," the equivalent of "choosing the 2020 Olympic team by picking the eldest sons of the gold-medal winners in the 2000 Olympics." ...

"We have come closer to a true meritocracy than anywhere else around the world.  You have mobility so people with talents can be put to the best use. Without the estate tax, you in effect will have an aristocracy of wealth, which means you pass down the ability to command the resources of the nation based on heredity rather than merit."

"Of the billionaires I have known, money just brings out the basic traits in them. If they were jerks before they had money, they are simply jerks with a billion dollars."

-----------------------------------------------

Buffett said he makes $46 million a year in income and is only taxed at a 17.7 percent rate on his federal income taxes. By contrast, those who work for him, and make considerably less, pay on average about 32.9 percent in taxes - with the highest rate being 39.7 percent.

To emphasize his point, Buffett offered $1 million to the audience member who could show that one of the nation's wealthiest individuals pays a higher tax rate than one of their subordinates.

"I'm willing to bet anyone in this room $1 million that those rates are less than the secretary has to pay," said Buffett.

[guido911]

"Buffett said he makes $46 million a year in income and is only taxed at a 17.7 percent"

Umm, that's only $814,200.00 in taxes. Buffett's a cheapskate. I bet USRUF and Chicken Little paid that much.