Temporary ban on LED signs

[PonderInc]

Well, I missed the TMAPC meeting about LED signs that I had planned on attending.  Approval now goes back to the City Council.  The planning commission apparantly spent their time considering the spacing between signs...not whether or not Tulsa wants them in the first place.  

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080327_1_A5_hTheP44056

Whenever there's a discussion about banning billboards or signs or any form of blight, it always gets turned into a pity party for the "little billboard company that would go out of busienss."  I don't understand this.  

If your company made money by spreading garbage along the roadways, nobody would hesitate to shut you down.  Why do we take pity on one or two businesses that make Tulsa look trashy?  In the case of LED signs, it's not just offensive, it's unsafe.  So what's the deal?

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

Personally, I think there is a big difference between LED signs attached to businesses/schools/libraries/etc that distractingly flicker, flash and scroll at high rates; and LED billboards along the freeway that slowly cycle through various full screen messages.

The difference is simply a matter of programming.    It's the same technology on different scales -- one can do pretty much the same as the other -- but the billboard industry has been holding back on the most annoying aspects of LED billboards until they have a foothold.

[patric]

Interesting to note that some of the 'Burbs are interested in this, as well. (Something tells me Broken Arrow wont be among them)

From the Bixby Architectural Committee:

Jim Powell thanked Erik Enyart for including printouts of Tulsa World articles regarding the Tulsa City Council's recent moratorium on LED-lighted signs and noted that Bill Christiansen was a friend of his.

Erik Enyart noted that the wording on the restriction on the lighted signs for the Zoning Codes for Tulsa and Bixby are, if not identical, very similar.  Mr. Enyart stated that he could confirm this statement with INCOG/TMAPC, but believed that LED signs were required to go to the
Board of Adjustment for a Variance from the prohibition on the flashing or intermittently-lighted sign restriction, and that all of these LED signs that have been approved in Bixby were probably supposed to get a Board of Adjustment Variance also.
Mr. Enyart noted that the articles stated that the Tulsa Board of Adjustment has been overwhelmed by the requests for Variances for LED signs.

Jim Powell stated that several other cities were working to try to rewrite their zoning laws in regard to signage, including bans preventing lights from flickering, providing animation, or changing colors.  Mr. Powell noted that Portland, OR allows LED signs but has a restriction that the message is limited to change messages one (1) time per day, and the colors are limited to one (1) per day.
David Skaggs asked if this will take over the grandfather clause already issued on the approved signs, and Erik Enyart answered that the City Attorney could answer that.

Jim Powell recalled the problem with enforcement of sign restrictions in regard to the owner of Carpet City.  Mr. Powell stated that the owner made assurances that the LED sign would comply with flashing and brightness restrictions placed on it in order to get approval, but then did not comply.

Mr. Powell stated that previous City Planner Gene Edwards advised the owner to turn down his lights, which resulted in about 10 days with dimmed lights, but then they were turned up again.  Mr. Powell stated that he and Gene Edwards visited the owner, and the owner turned them down for about eight ( months, until Gene left the city and the lights went back up.
Richard Altmann stated that is why the city needs a code enforcement officer.

Jim Powell stated that he doesn't have any more information to report from the city in Indiana because they are in the process of rewriting their laws and ordinances, according to his friend Carol Beaver.
Beverly Savage suggested a sign ordinance could be passed recognizing that such signs are not in the interest of public safety.

Jim Powell suggested the Committee report to City Council and proposes an ordinance amendment to control signage lighting.  Jim Powell suggested that such changes include a restriction to one (1) message and one (1)color per day and that lighting be dimmed at night.
Rewrite an update to the current zoning codes for signage pertaining to LED electronic lights. Jim Powell made a MOTION to petition the City Council for a rewrite and update the current zoning codes for signage pertaining to LED electronic lights. Richard Altmann SECONDED the Motion.  Motion Carried.

[patric]

Hmm, lookie what was installed during the L.E.D. Billboard moratorium...
Its, an L.E.D. Billboard,
on 169 between Best Buy and the furniture store:  




It's completely installed, grass has grown back around the base, appears to be networked and ready to go.
Now who did that I wonder?

Signfxr
4208 South May Avenue
Oklahoma City, OK 73119
Tel: (405)682-6366

Ill work on a better picture, but if there are any more that have suddenly sprouted please make a note of them.

[Publius]

Well. . . I'm told that "technically" it is not a billboard. It is suppose to be a "business" sign for Mathis Brothers. Looks like a duck though, . . . doesn't it.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by Publius

Well. . . I'm told that "technically" it is not a billboard. It is suppose to be a "business" sign for Mathis Brothers. Looks like a duck though, . . . doesn't it.

The sign company name at the bottom would have me doubting that, but it seems Mathis Bros. got an amendment to their PUD to operate an "on-premise business sign" for them and their partners.
The fact that it does happen to be a full-scale LED billboard...

[patric]

Councilors Eric Gomez and Dennis Troyer told the city council Thursday that they would like LED billboards to be brighter, closer together, and change messages faster.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080425_1_A9_spanc17770

The proposal was 300 'Nits' (Candellas per square meter) but they want to kick it up to 500 cd/m2.
To give some idea of scale, the average large-screen TV is around 300 cd/m2 (nits).  Now imagine that screen the size of a billboard against a  nighttime landscape.

Where did Gomez and Troyer get their numbers from?  Propably not the residents of the districts they represent.

And of course, they had to travel to OKC to look at a digital billboard because they dont know about the ones already in Tulsa (like the LED billboard at 71st and hy 169).

[cannon_fodder]

I spoke to a guy from a local sign company about this issue a few days back:

1. Lamar has a track record of fighting this same fight.  They purposefully (according to their competitor) ignore ordinances and place their signs where they please.  Then they argue they are already in place, why not just have "generous" restrictions.  The "generous" restrictions then place spacing limits that generally allow all their signs to remain but squeeze out the competition - who have followed the rules and don't already have LED signs in place.

He advanced this theory at the ordinance meeting.  That is why there was so much talk about spacing, and why the spacing has been reduced.  Market money is moving towards LED signs.

2.  Supposedly an agreement is on the tablish that will level the playing field and allow LED billboards like most every other market in the United States.  Limits on changeovers, little or no animation, brightness control for nights, and some restrictions on placement.

I hope so.  A well done LED (read: not OH CRAP bright nor animated) looks so much better than paper that is too often bubbled or pealing.  Tulsa would jump right into the marketing technology of the 1990's.

[PonderInc]

From a TW article on 4/23:
Several councilors have questioned whether the proposed 2,400-foot spacing requirement between light-emitting-diode, or LED, billboards would be competitively unfair.

That could render many of the existing standard billboards, spaced only 1,200 feet apart, obsolete because not all of them could convert to the new technology, councilors pointed out.

Councilor David Patrick has recommended that all existing billboards be allowed to go digital and require the 2,400-foot spacing for new ones.

Clusters of billboards exist that predate even the 1,200-foot rule.

Councilor Bill Martinson, citing the 31st Street and Yale Avenue area along the Broken Arrow Expressway as an example, said he hopes that the ability to go digital will encourage billboard companies to remove some of those signs.

"If some of those signs are to be converted to LED, then some will have to be removed because they are less than 1,200 feet away," he said.

"I'm excited about this technology in the sense that it's an opportunity for us to clean up some of the clutter," Martinson said. "The fact that they're able to change the displays so frequently gives us a legitimate reason to ask that the other signage be removed."

Councilors also have discussed a stipulation that if a sign is not in use for 180 days, it must be removed.

I was driving around yesterday, and noticed that easily 95% of the billboards along our expressways and interstates are owned by Lamar.  So we're not talking about some poor, local, family-owned company being put out of business by these restrictions.  We're talking about a nation-wide company that earns billions of dollars by spreading sign pollution across America.

Also, put this in perscpective:  1,200 feet is less than a quarter mile.  Imagine about 2 city blocks to get the idea.  (When driving 60 MPH, you travel a quarter mile every 15 seconds.)  How much crap do you want to see?

Also, there are already lots of clusters of billboards that are closer than 1,200 feet.  They're not going away.  They're "grandfathered in."  They WON'T have to go away because they're closer than 1,200 feet.  How many more grandfathers do we want?

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Also, put this in perscpective:  1,200 feet is less than a quarter mile.  Imagine about 2 city blocks to get the idea.  (When driving 60 MPH, you travel a quarter mile every 15 seconds.)  How much crap do you want to see?

Also, there are already lots of clusters of billboards that are closer than 1,200 feet.  They're not going away.  They're "grandfathered in."  They WON'T have to go away because they're closer than 1,200 feet.  How many more grandfathers do we want?

I noticed that Whistler billboards has been before the BOA regularly seeking exceptions to this, last time they had six or seven new billboards at a time up for consideration.
I dont imagine they get all, but adds are the BOA are giving them some just to keep the sign industry lawyers off their backs.

Having a couple new billboard-friendly city councilors in place may move things along quicker, too.

[cannon_fodder]

The 95% figure is a gross overstatement, they are  a market leaders - but not THAT much.

Whistler is indeed the people I was speaking with. If the limit as proposed was to take effect Lamar would already have most of the available locations occupied.  Shutting everyone else out.   The next step is to require the removal "out dated billboards" to avoid clutter.  Effectively eliminating competition by ignoring existing laws and getting their agenda to pass.

I stand nothing to gain no matter who wins.  I want LED signs simply because I hate that Tulsa is the only city of any size that is using 1950's billboard technology as the status quo.    They get outdated fast and look worn out more often than not.

It really shouldn't be that hard.  Look at what Portland, OKC, Des Moines, Albuquerque and other similarly sized cities did and make a few calls to ask the various agencies what worked well and what they wish they would have done.

[PonderInc]

All I did was count the signs I passed on I-44, the BA and 169 as I drove down the road.  I definitely counted 9 Lamar signs for every 1 sign that didn't bear their logo.  It was not a scientific survey, and I didn't drive down every road in town.  Just paid attention to what I passed.

In Portland, OR, they allow digital signs, but do not allow them to be animated, and they are only allowed to change messages once every 24 hours.

In Tulsa, the TMAPC and Sign Advisory Board made recommendations that, among other things, included: limiting the image to change every 12 SECONDS, limits on brightness, and spacing of 2,400 feet (facing same direction).

What does the council talk about?
Allowing the signs to update every 8 seconds, allowing brighter displays than the Sign Advisory Board and TMAPC recommended, and reducing the spacing between signs.

[izmophonik]

Once again Tulsa proves it's stodgyness while OKC appears to be more progressie.  They already have LED bilboards.  I was driving to Moore the other week and ran across several of them.  Why does it seem like we are re-inventing the wheel.  OKC already has them in place...just copy thier bylaws, rules etc.. rubber stamp..BAM! done.  :-)

[PonderInc]

I haven't read OKC's sign ordinances, but I would certainly caution against copying and pasting (or rubber stamping) anything from another city.  OKC has made some great strides in recent years in many areas...while Tulsa has dithered and said "no" to many opportunities.  (Don't forget that OKC has a different system of government from Tulsa.)  

But when it comes to the city as a whole (aside from their progress downtown)...what part of OKC should Tulsa strive to emulate?  Personally, it's not the model I want to follow.

[buckeye]

Animated LED signs means a Blade Runner nightmare to me.