Any noticable effects of 1804 yet?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

It looks to me like we are on a fast track headed towards a labor crisis in Oklahoma.  The positive side of this is that major employers are going to be talking to the governor very soon.  On the negative side, I'm not convinced that Oklahoma won't commit suicide to prove to a point.  Unfortunately I own real estate here and have some money here and my fate is joined with Oklahoma's.

Don't fret HT. The law is reality and other states are sure to follow. They have the public's approval after longstanding efforts to harden public attitudes with stories of wild in the streets aliens "takin' er jbs" and fathering babies to secure citizenship. Both of which are probably true.

The impact on real estate will be negligible unless you were one of the slumlords raking in undocumented cash and services in lieu. Rental rates may soften for apartments. Marginal attorneys may have leaner times. The days of cheap lawn care, roofing and driveway replacement are ending but that is no real trajedy. I believe that many of our infrastructure failures here are due to contractors who used extremely cheap laborers who learned on the job.

The trajedy is in the changed attitudes towards real salt of the earth laborers. These are people who work hard and cheap. Who are family oriented, religious and consumerist. In other words, the kind of labor that built Oklahoma and the Southwest. They don't (didn't) complain much about anything, prepared our food, cleaned our offices and acted pretty much like America circa the early 50's. They followed the capitalist philosophies of supply/demand and loophole exploitation. Hardly people worthy of the slurs and poisonous venom hurled at them. But nothing lasts forever, many of them are illegal and there will be an impact on all of us.

[Conan71]

To an extent, there's a mis-conception on Mexican laborers.  They don't just make good leaf rakers, roofers, dishwashers, and insulators.  Most I've worked around are good at picking up advanced and more technical skills and virtually all have multiple skill sets.  They are from a culture that is used to getting more out of less.  If something breaks, you don't run out and buy a replacement, you try to fix it first.  So you wind up with someone who not only can do construction or another specific trade, but also has a better understanding of electricity, metal repair, paint, electronics, etc. than the average American.

What a lot of companies, who are short of man-power that I've talked to, are hoping for is a managable guest worker program, a sort of temp agency if you will.

That was pretty much how it worked in agriculture back the middle of the 1900's.  Mexicans would come here at harvest time, work for three months and go back to Mexico with full pockets until the next harvest season.

Aside from sealing the border, where our government has failed has been zero management of a willing labor pool from Mexico.

[Hometown]

With all due respect Waterboy I think the situation is bit more complex and deeper and farther reaching than you are suggesting.  

For example, Tulsa County is requiring proof of citizenship to issue a food handler's permit.  Do some math on this one industry in Tulsa.  I don't believe the citizens are there to fill these jobs.

Undocumented workers have bought homes in various neighborhoods, especially east Tulsa.  If they have indeed supplied the bulk of Tulsa's growth since the 70s I would say they are crucial to holding up the lower and middle levels of real estate.  The upper end sits on the lower end and a collapse in the lower end will result in an across the board decline.  Add to that the auto purchases and their contributions to sales taxes.

You may recall that I left California two years ago because I was concerned about a collapse in real estate prices.  Disbelievers would say things like, "real estate never goes down."

I absolutely understand the simple reading on this issue.  But I think the level of risk has risen to the point where we better strive for an understanding of complexities because our financial well being is on the line.  

I could probably survive a serious decade-long economic downturn in Oklahoma, but it would hurt.  And most of the people I've been acquainted with here could not survive that kind of downturn.

Of the course our bigger sin is spiritual and we'll have to account to God for that.

Hey Conan, The growers have been pushing a guest worker program since before Reagan's amnesty.  I think a guest worker program with a path to citizenship is the way to go.  Yes we once had a large scale guest worker program.

Our real problem here is that Oklahomans are at the beginning of a very long learning curve and their knee jerk, simplistic reactions to the situation are understandable but will be almost immediately self-defeating.

[RecycleMichael]

I used to give all my change in December to the bell-ringers for Salvation Army.

Now the Oklahoma chapter won't give out presents to any child if there is a single undocumented worker living in the household. They make the families fill out extensive forms and prove citizenship.

I no longer give to the kettles.

Sorry, children. No christmas gifts for you because uncle Jose doesn't have his paperwork in order.

[spoonbill]

It was sketchy over the last month as we lost most of our immigrant labor in anticipation of the bill passing.  We lost many of our legal immigrant labor too.  I must admit, at first I thought it was going to be devastating, we do a lot of dirt-work, construction and landscaping, but we've actually had very little problem filling the positions.

One of the problems we had before (and didn't realize it) was that native workers were reluctant to take field jobs because the majority of our labor force spoke no english.  We still have quite a few Hispanic foramen and workers, but they are legal, and all speak english.  We've been able to replace most of the "questionable" workforce, contracted under these foremen, with legal workers, contracted directly.

True it has cost us a little more, but we anticipated that. We are starting to see significant increases in worker productivity, that we also did not anticipate.  We are now able to engage in direct communications with all of our workers.  Eliminating a significant language barrier.  The decimation of information from the contractor to the, forman to the worker is much better.

If I have a guy grading a lot and I learn from my engineer that there is a mistake in the grading, I can call the forman or the guy running the equipment and explain everything in English.  It's kinda nice.  Just fixed a problem today in a 20 second phone call that would have taken a visit to the site, 20 minutes of head-scratching translation,  and a new set of plans plotted.

I don't think it's going to be as bad as I anticipated.  If anything I think it's getting better.

[Conan71]

Welders and fitters were in short supply before there was even a whisper of HB-1804.  In that sense, it hasn't affected us directly.

Where I'm seeing it more is at job sites where other subs are running short of help in concrete, steel work, or plumbing.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I used to give all my change in December to the bell-ringers for Salvation Army.

Now the Oklahoma chapter won't give out presents to any child if there is a single undocumented worker living in the household. They make the families fill out extensive forms and prove citizenship.

I no longer give to the kettles.

Sorry, children. No christmas gifts for you because uncle Jose doesn't have his paperwork in order.

Imagine that...the Salvation Army only giving gifts to needy, poor American children.  Why should our own poor have to suffer with even less because Jose decided to come here illegally and have a family?  Besides, I though Jose wasn't here to take from the system.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

With all due respect Waterboy I think the situation is bit more complex and deeper and farther reaching than you are suggesting.  

For example, Tulsa County is requiring proof of citizenship to issue a food handler's permit.  Do some math on this one industry in Tulsa.  I don't believe the citizens are there to fill these jobs.

Undocumented workers have bought homes in various neighborhoods, especially east Tulsa.  If they have indeed supplied the bulk of Tulsa's growth since the 70s I would say they are crucial to holding up the lower and middle levels of real estate.  The upper end sits on the lower end and a collapse in the lower end will result in an across the board decline.  Add to that the auto purchases and their contributions to sales taxes.

You may recall that I left California two years ago because I was concerned about a collapse in real estate prices.  Disbelievers would say things like, "real estate never goes down."

I absolutely understand the simple reading on this issue.  But I think the level of risk has risen to the point where we better strive for an understanding of complexities because our financial well being is on the line.  

I could probably survive a serious decade-long economic downturn in Oklahoma, but it would hurt.  And most of the people I've been acquainted with here could not survive that kind of downturn.

Of the course our bigger sin is spiritual and we'll have to account to God for that.

Hey Conan, The growers have been pushing a guest worker program since before Reagan's amnesty.  I think a guest worker program with a path to citizenship is the way to go.  Yes we once had a large scale guest worker program.

Our real problem here is that Oklahomans are at the beginning of a very long learning curve and their knee jerk, simplistic reactions to the situation are understandable but will be almost immediately self-defeating.

Hometown, not so much as you would think on home ownership, especially from illegal aliens, or undocumented workers as you prefer.  There's always been a deep fear of having their names on too many legal documents, especially insurance or loan papers.  It's easy to create a bogus SSN and get a job.  However, it's a bit harder to trick the credit bureau and lenders with that.  FHA loans?  That takes a major anal probe to get even if you were born in the U.S.

If there is direct home ownership, then I'd be willing to bet it's contract for deed or cash.  If an illegal has that much cash to pay for a house, likely you don't want them as a neighbor, nor do you want their line of work in your neighborhood.  

Vehicles?  Tote-a-note lot vehicles which are dregs from dealer trade-ins bought at auction.  It's a secondary, usurious economy.  If tote-a-note lots disappered from our landscape, I wouldn't shed a tear.  That's a pretty cash-heavy business, that I'm betting skirts quite a bit of the IRS code and collections.

Finally, it's not a spiritual issue, it's a legal issue, but I'm sick and tired of beating that dead horse.

[RecycleMichael]

Originally posted by iplaw
Imagine that...the Salvation Army only giving gifts to needy, poor American children.  Why should our own poor have to suffer with even less because Jose decided to come here illegally and have a family?  Besides, I though Jose wasn't here to take from the system./quote]
The Salvation Army can give to whomever they choose and I am sure some of their funders want this policy in place.

They can just do it without my assistance.

The local Catholics agree with me...

This from KRMG...

(Tulsa, Ok)--The Bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa refuses to let a state law stop him from helping those in need. Law enforcement agencies have said they do not plan any raids on churches that deal with Hispanic immigrants. Bishop Edward Slattery feels that over time it will become evident that Oklahoma's tough new illegal immigration law is an "unwise" law. He rejects those portions of it that could lead to prosecution of anyone offering aid to illegals. The Bishop says he and the other priests of the diocese will not ask someone about their residency status before feeding or clothing them. He says he follows God's law. Bishop Slattery also says if standing up for those he helps means he must go to jail, then "so be it".

[iplaw]

quote: The local Catholics agree with me...

I don't know if I'd be proud to adopt any position they're beholden to...but in any event, that's the church's job, to feed the needy, it's not the Salvation Army's.

Anyways, I'm still trying to figure out why Jose needs assistance since I've been told over and over again that they're not a drain on the system.

[RecycleMichael]

Gee Iplaw...it is because sometimes people need assistance. It is not because his name is Jose. His name could be Joe.

We should help the needy. We are a rich society and yet we still have those among us who sometimes need a little help.

I don't care what color they are or if they speak the same language as me. I clearly would not need to make them prove that the entire family was completely legal for me to want to help. I don't care what country they are from, if they need help, I would try to help.

The Salvation Army feels differently than me. That is their right. They don't want to help the poor unless every single person living in the household passes their citizenship tests.

I know how close to this situation many of us could be if the wrong few things happened to us. I am blessed to be able to do a little and I am willing to try.

It is called compassion. You should try it.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I used to give all my change in December to the bell-ringers for Salvation Army.

Now the Oklahoma chapter won't give out presents to any child if there is a single undocumented worker living in the household. They make the families fill out extensive forms and prove citizenship.

I no longer give to the kettles.

Sorry, children. No christmas gifts for you because uncle Jose doesn't have his paperwork in order.

Don't worry children, I'll make up the difference so you can have Christmas (notice the capital "C") gifts.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Gee Iplaw...it is because sometimes people need assistance. It is not because his name is Jose. His name could be Joe.

We should help the needy. We are a rich society and yet we still have those among us who sometimes need a little help.

I don't care what color they are or if they speak the same language as me. I clearly would not need to make them prove that the entire family was completely legal for me to want to help. I don't care what country they are from, if they need help, I would try to help.

The Salvation Army feels differently than me. That is their right. They don't want to help the poor unless every single person living in the household passes their citizenship tests.

I know how close to this situation many of us could be if the wrong few things happened to us. I am blessed to be able to do a little and I am willing to try.

It is called compassion. You should try it.

As I stated in another thread, I will make up the loss of whatever loose change you plan on withholding from American children at Christmas time.

BTW, Compassion? Punishing all children that benefit from the Salvation Army sure sounds compassionate to me. Gee, how about this thought, if you are against the war in Iraq, protest by not participating in the Marine Corps' toys for tots program this Christmas as well. That'll teach ole GWB!

[RecycleMichael]

No, I am a big fan of toys for tots. They give to any needy child.

In fact, our Tulsa Packer Backers fan club has raised over $40,000 that we have given to Toys for Tots in the last few years.

The Marines are great and come out and eat bratwurst and watch the game with us. We sell bratwurst at our tailgate parties to raise money (Brats for Tots).

You see guido, there are lots of ways to help. The good thing is we get to choose. I choose to give through a group that doesn't punish because one family member doesn't have all their papers in order.

[tim huntzinger]

An Owassan friend reports that two Mexican families in his neighborhood have their homes ($200K+) for sale.

I fully believe that Mexican flight precipitated the mortgage meltdown.