Any noticable effects of 1804 yet?

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Gee Iplaw...it is because sometimes people need assistance. It is not because his name is Jose. His name could be Joe.

We should help the needy. We are a rich society and yet we still have those among us who sometimes need a little help.

I don't care what color they are or if they speak the same language as me. I clearly would not need to make them prove that the entire family was completely legal for me to want to help. I don't care what country they are from, if they need help, I would try to help.

The Salvation Army feels differently than me. That is their right. They don't want to help the poor unless every single person living in the household passes their citizenship tests.

I know how close to this situation many of us could be if the wrong few things happened to us. I am blessed to be able to do a little and I am willing to try.

It is called compassion. You should try it.

As ususal, you're intermingling arguments, like how you interchange the terms "immigrant" and "illegal immigrant" as if they are equal.

This is not a discussion about compassion for the poor and needy, and whether there need be any at all, that's an ignorant discussion, and I can bet that I gave more to charities in the last year than you have in the last five, so drop the self-righteous crap.

The issue is: Should we punish our poor by taking assistance from them by giving assistance to people who have no right to be here in the first place.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw
...and I can bet that I gave more to charities in the last year than you have in the last five, so drop the self-righteous crap.

The issue is: Should we punish our poor by taking assistance from them by giving assistance to people who have no right to be here in the first place.

Piplaw:

You don't know anything about what I gave in both money and time in the last five years, but if you feel superior to me by believing that, so be it.

You are the one who is missing the points in this discussion. The children can be completely legal citizens, the parents can be completely legal, but if one person in the house isn't here legally, no one can receive assistance through this program.

The Hispanic culture traditionally has living arrangements that include other family members living in one residence. This policy discriminates against those legal children.

It is the right of the giving organization to decide who to give to, and my right to not support them.

[iplaw]

quote:

You don't know anything about what I gave in both money and time in the last five years, but if you feel superior to me by believing that, so be it.

I believe you started the idiotic oneupsmanship business by saying, and I quote:

"You should try it."

quote:
You are the one who is missing the points in this discussion. The children can be completely legal citizens, the parents can be completely legal, but if one person in the house isn't here legally, no one can receive assistance through this program.

This comes from the guy who can't parse the difference between an "immigrant" and an "illegal immigrant"...it's completely understandable to deny assistance to those who will in turn, provide assistance to people who have no right to be here in the first place. So whether illegals are receiving assistance directly, or they second-handedly doesn't matter, it's still wrong and stealing from our own poor.

quote:
The Hispanic culture traditionally has living arrangements that include other family members living in one residence. This policy discriminates against those legal children.

Even with that said, you're choosing to focus on one small subset of the illegal community.  I can bet that rarely is Jose the only illegal in the house.

quote:
It is the right of the giving organization to decide who to give to, and my right to not support them.

Sure, and it's my right to call you on the carpet for encouraging not-for-profits to waste resources and further deprive our own poor.

[RecycleMichael]

Riplaw, believe it or not, these are our own poor. Most of these kids are legal US citizens, they just happen to have someone living with them who is not.

And your statement of "...it's completely understandable to deny assistance to those who will in turn, provide assistance to people who have no right to be here in the first place." is completely unbased.

This is a Christmas gift of toys and clothing. How is uncle Jose going to benefit from toys given to poor children in the home?

Why are you so concerned about who gets to enjoy Christmas? What part of the Christmas message tells you to pick and choose which poor people are going to be helped and which ones are not?

Proponents of the SB1804 said they did this because of jobs and assimilation and strain on government services...how did you go further and decide Christmas gifts should be related to citizenship?

And back to your large history of donating you claim...did you ever give to a group that does work outside of America? Do you demand that the blood the Red Cross gives out only goes to citizens of your country?

[NellieBly]

It's hard to argue with Scrooge.

[USRufnex]

I've noticed several vacant apts over the past few weeks, but am not sure how many hispanics have left.  And, of course, I can't tell you how many of these folks are legal and how many aren't...

The fun part is watching when some young punk moves in... and I can tell you the likelyhood of one of my neighbors using and dealing drugs is now higher with the new people moving into my east/southeast Tulsa apt complex.  I am now MORE WORRIED about gang activity here, not less... thank you, HB-1804.  [B)]

It's just really ironic that the very same people who are demonized as "illegals" by folks on this board are actually LESS LIKELY to commit crimes and deal drugs compared to so-called lawful citizens who will commit illegal acts, including some of the "legal" hispanics.

[ifsandbuts]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Sure, and it's my right to call you on the carpet for encouraging not-for-profits to waste resources and further deprive our own poor.

Yikes! I can't even attempt to be witty -- I'm so appalled at this.
For some of us, feeding a hungry child -- or giving one a toy at Christmas -- isn't a wasted resource, no matter which of the many needy children in the world get it. I don't divide the world into "my poor" (=deserving) and the rest of them (apparently =undeserving?). If I am giving money or toys trying to bring a smile to a child's face Christmas morning, why in the world would I care if that child is an American, a legal immigrant or an illegal immigrant?
Do you honestly believe that the child of an illegal immigrant shouldn't be the recipient of charitable aid? What about the child of an American felon -- on your "deserving" scale, do they fall above or below the child of a legal immigrant who lets his illegal sister visit? What about an American who is the third generation in her family to live on welfare vs. an illegal who works hard and pays taxes? Is there some sort of scoring system so we can keep track of just how much Christian charity is alloted to each individual? I want to make sure we don't accidentally waste a life-saving vaccination on one of those little kids who wasn't smart enough to be born to Americans!

[Rico]

What we must keep in our minds are not the suffering of the few children....! We must stay on the path to the "Greater Good"....

Look as the work of our Countrymen becomes the Glory and Salvation of our Heritage..... We are American.... We are protecting ourselves from the onslaught of the terror and plague of the "anchor babies" using our resources..... Crippling our workforce.... If the Federals will not do their job we must take it upon ourselves to lead the way....

For far too long we have given to these leeches...... sucking the Life's blood from our Homeland.....Our Fatherland....

No More...!



For all that come to join in our pursuit of the perfect civilization.... free of the monstrosities of the world... cleansed of all the burdens of the need nots....

We Salute You.........

[iplaw]

quote:Riplaw, believe it or not, these are our own poor. Most of these kids are legal US citizens, they just happen to have someone living with them who is not.

This entire rediculous discussion of yours is predicated upon the ignorant assumption that all these families being denied assistance are simply hiding one illegal.  I can guarantee that this is the execption to the rule.

quote:
And your statement of "...it's completely understandable to deny assistance to those who will in turn, provide assistance to people who have no right to be here in the first place." is completely unbased.

This is a Christmas gift of toys and clothing. How is uncle Jose going to benefit from toys given to poor children in the home?

Call me cynical, but I bet Jose has kids too.  The only one gullible enough here to believe that Jose is the only illegal in the house, who also happens to have no kids is you.

quote:
Why are you so concerned about who gets to enjoy Christmas? What part of the Christmas message tells you to pick and choose which poor people are going to be helped and which ones are not?

Why are you not concerned about depriving our own poor by giving assistance to people who have no right to be here?  If you want to help poor Mexicans, drive your donkey down to Nuevo Laredo with a van full of toys and make it happen.

What part of the Christmas message tells you to deprive people by playing politics with a charity?

quote:
Proponents of the SB1804 said they did this because of jobs and assimilation and strain on government services...how did you go further and decide Christmas gifts should be related to citizenship?

What an ignorant argument.  If they aren't entitled to be here they don't deserve anything, let alone a Christmas bonus paid for unkowingly by generous Americans trying to help other unfortunate Americans.

quote:
And back to your large history of donating you claim...did you ever give to a group that does work outside of America? Do you demand that the blood the Red Cross gives out only goes to citizens of your country?

I give to several charities who do work outside the US with explicit assumption that my money is being used to help the people it's being given for.

I understand the scope and goals of the Red Cross, as I understand the scope and goals of the Salvation Army.

It's too bad that you just can't be a man and say that your choice to deny giving money to a decent charity is a political move because you're pissed off about 1804. Instead of just pissing up a rope and complaining like most liberas, you're taking it out on the Salvation Army.

[iplaw]

quote:

Yikes! I can't even attempt to be witty -- I'm so appalled at this.

I agree.  It's best not to try.

quote:
For some of us, feeding a hungry child -- or giving one a toy at Christmas -- isn't a wasted resource, no matter which of the many needy children in the world get it.

That's fantastic.  I don't feel the same way.

quote:
I don't divide the world into "my poor" (=deserving) and the rest of them (apparently =undeserving?). If I am giving money or toys trying to bring a smile to a child's face Christmas morning, why in the world would I care if that child is an American, a legal immigrant or an illegal immigrant?

Because if it wasn't for that illegal child, another poor citizen of this country would be receiving that gift.

quote:
Do you honestly believe that the child of an illegal immigrant shouldn't be the recipient of charitable aid?

Short answer: yes.  Long answer: I believe that you can do with your money, whatever you want.

quote:
What about the child of an American felon -- on your "deserving" scale, do they fall above or below the child of a legal immigrant who lets his illegal sister visit?

Non-sequitor and frankly a poor analogy.

quote:
What about an American who is the third generation in her family to live on welfare vs. an illegal who works hard and pays taxes?

I'll answer this question if you can explain to me how exactly an illegal pays anything other than consumptive taxes?  It's like asking me "how about an illegal...except for he's not illegal."

quote:
Is there some sort of scoring system so we can keep track of just how much Christian charity is alloted to each individual? I want to make sure we don't accidentally waste a life-saving vaccination on one of those little kids who wasn't smart enough to be born to Americans!

Nice hyperbole.  You're as good at obfuscating and intermingling issues as RM.    

Again, you can choose to spend your money however you wish.

[RecycleMichael]

I really don't want to spend my life arguing with you, pooplaw.

And again, you are wrong. I didn't just stop to support the Salvation Army after HB1804. I wrote these same comments on this forum two years ago when I read in the Tulsa World of this policy change in the Salvation Army.

There is nothing overtly political in my motives, I just wrote about a charity that I no longer support and why. I guess I shouldn't have posted it in this thread because it caused you to babble nonsense my way.

I completely believe your Christmas charity is based on your nationalistic views. You are so wrapped up in your opinions and malcontent about Hispanic culture that you have missed the meaning of Christmas.

I am certain that the Salvation Army does wonderful work year-round in our community. I just choose to disagree with their policy on their Christmas Giving campaign.

My Christmas wish is to convince you and the Salvation Army that poor children are deserving of our help, regardless of their or their family's immigration status.

[Conan71]

Now wait a second RM.  You are homogenizing the sentiments of people who have a low tolerance for illegal immigrants as being anti-Hispanic.  Other than pencil-neck KKK-types, I think you'll find that very few people who take a dim view of illegal immigration have a dislike for Mexicans.  I appreciate Hispanic culture and especially their sense of family and work ethic.

I have a low tolerance for illegal aliens from Canada, China, Russia, Ireland, Poland, etc. ad nauseum.

I don't know one person with views similar to my own who is "anti-immigrant"- "anti-illegal immigrant" is more like it.  Hell, unless someone is a native-American, they are here due to immigration in the first place.

[RecycleMichael]

Iplaw is the one who made this into a Mexican argument. I mentioned the policy and he started out by adding his views about Jose.

You are correct. The anti-illegal immigration feelings are not just anti-Mexican feelings, but be honest...no one brings up any other culture in this topic than Mexicans.

[Neptune]

Here's a new challenge.

Tulsa World

quote:OKLAHOMA CITY -- An attorney for two men who were jailed when they told a judge they were not in the country legally says they should be freed because their constitutional rights were violated.

Attorney Joan Lopez asked the state Court of Criminal Appeals Friday to have the men released because the judge's questions about their immigration status violated the men's Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

Lopez said Oklahoma County District Judge Jerry Bass forced the men to incriminate themselves when he asked them if they were legal residents of the United States. Bass sent both men to jail when they acknowledged they were not in the country legally.

Bass does not have the authority to inquire about their immigration status under the new state law that went into effect Nov. 1, the attorney said.

Lopez also contends the new Oklahoma immigration law is not valid because it is pre-empted by the federal Immigration and Nationality Act of 1986.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Neptune

Here's a new challenge.

Tulsa World

quote:OKLAHOMA CITY -- An attorney for two men who were jailed when they told a judge they were not in the country legally says they should be freed because their constitutional rights were violated.

Attorney Joan Lopez asked the state Court of Criminal Appeals Friday to have the men released because the judge's questions about their immigration status violated the men's Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

Lopez said Oklahoma County District Judge Jerry Bass forced the men to incriminate themselves when he asked them if they were legal residents of the United States. Bass sent both men to jail when they acknowledged they were not in the country legally.

Bass does not have the authority to inquire about their immigration status under the new state law that went into effect Nov. 1, the attorney said.

Lopez also contends the new Oklahoma immigration law is not valid because it is pre-empted by the federal Immigration and Nationality Act of 1986.

Guess the police cannot ask anyone suspected of drinking and driving if they have been drinking or not. Oh, and if that suspect is believed to be under 21, then the police really better not ask any questions.