CAIR OK : Press Release on a Middle East Website

[MichaelC]

Well, one other thing, don't expect to "win."  It's more about survival, than winning. Certain denominations are probably just doomed to failure, primarily because they won't change.  And, faced with outside competition, other religions other opportunities, it's not likely that Christianity will see long-term growth anyway.  It will probably fluctuate some, but in the long-term Christianity in the US is probably on the decline, just as it has been in Europe.

That being said, some churches will be equipped well enough to not only survive, but to grow.  Some will actually make necessary changes, and work on Christianity as a more internal/spiritual/accepting concept, rather than the proselytizing/external/demanding concept.  People will still be interested in being Christian, but they'll be less interested in a religion that requires that they constantly project Christianity in all that they do.  They'll be less interested in a religion that demands reason and logic, depending on the case,  be discounted or demonized.

That's a long ways off, especially for here in Tulsa.  Small steps couldn't hurt though.

[TheArtist]

There seemed to be such a large fervor towards more fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity for a long time. Lots of people flocked to those churches. It appears that over time the newness, ferver, "wonderful expectation" or whatever you want to call it, begins to wear off for many.  They find that life is still pretty much the same, that these people arent really much different, coupled with the fact that they begin to see people saying one thing, pretending one thing, then doing and living another. Or that simply when they joined they were in one place in their lives, once the challenges of that place were adressed and they moved on they found themselves with people who had no more to offer. The message was the same, but they needed something at a higher level. Some churches only have a limited view and dont adequatly serve different people who are at different stages in their lives.  

I have seen quite a few people personally who went into this or that church zelously and for years were out there preaching the gospel, hearing voices, miraculous cures, thinking that life was going to be wonderful...Then you run into them years later and find them disenchanted, frustrated and even angry at some of the lies and hypocracy they were constantly confronting. (Heard one friend say. some of the people he knew who touted and believed most in faith healing turned out to be the most out of shape and constantly getting sick, whining people he had ever met. lol They could always point to the time they were "miraculously cured" it sounded wonderful at first, you could really be drawn in by the strength and wonder of their beliefs and the way they talked. But then in real life, over the years, you began to see how often they were ill, prayed, nothing happened, would never mention those times if you asked them, just remembered the exceptions they shared amongst themselves. etc.) The "magic" was definitely gone, the story that was sold began to fall apart. While still Christian, the views have moderated, become a bit more nuanced. All the answers arent to be found in one church or its version of Christianity and how "God works".

There are different types of churches. There are different types of people. Many people evolve and change over time. A very strict, narrowly defined church may attract people of that manner, or someone who is in a particular place in their life for example. But once that person changes, the narrower the churches views or reach, the narrower the range and kind of people it serves, the more likely it is for that person to move on.

[RecycleMichael]

The last couple of months I have gone away from being a regular church goer to spending time with a televised religious experience.

I now watch the Sunday services from "Our lady of the NFL."

We pray for touchdowns.

[restored2x]

Wow guys. I am so glad I joined this forum. You have obviously thought this thing out. With all the bickering and stuff on here sometimes, you have taken a subject that is very delicate for many and eloquently and logically answered my question.

Thanks a bunch. This subject fascinates me.

[kakie]

I was just wondering if all Muslims follow the religious ruling of the Islamic Society of North America. Is this the highest Muslim authority in America?

I was surprised to read on Islamonline which is based in Qatar a fatwa or religious ruling about an American holiday:

Dr. Muzamil Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Soceity of North America (ISNA), issues the following Fatwa:

Halloween is an old pagan holiday of the witches and the dead. Later some Christians tried to Christianize it by calling it "All Saints Day". However there are still many Christians who resent it and consider it a bad holiday. Some of them even call it a "helliday."

Whether Christians accept it or not, we Muslims should not accept this holiday. It is meaningless. Wearing costumes, going tricking and treating and decorating houses with witches, spider nets and wasting so much pumpkins, etc., are all repugnant things. It is strange to see reasonable people acting as weirdo and doing foolish things. It is also becoming quite dangerous nowadays. Some people really act like monsters and witches. Muslims should not participate in this holiday.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543074

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by restored2x

I also think maybe people are really fed up with "religion" as it is presented and represented and are more "spiritual" minded. The attrition is obvious, I guess my question is - Why the attrition?

I guess the SoBaps could do their own survey, but how many people would actually answer truthfully if they know who it is that is asking the question?

Is it that life is too busy?

Is it because the church is speaking about issues that are irrelevant?

How much of it can be attributed to the very public failings and actions of high-profile preachers?

Could it be about the church losing focus (politics, money and power instead of whatever that gospel thing is supposed to center on - loving your neighbor)?

Some of you who have "left the church behind" (or maybe you feel that the church has left you behind) I would love to hear why.

Well since many of the regulars have participated in thread-jacking, I'll add my .02. []


Is it that life is too busy?

Used to be Sunday was a day off for everyone except pastors.  Over the last 25 to 30 years, with the exception of a few, retailers and restaurants are open 7 days a week.  There are other businesses which are now staffed 7 days a week.  Now we have kids sports on Sundays which never happened when I was a kid- not even practice.

Is it that the caricature of the christian and televangelist has caught up to them?

It's not the primary reason I don't go to church regularly, but I do think the well-publicized escapades of "famous" ministers has made a lot of people like myself wonder if all the rest of the men and women of the cloth are as disingenuous.  


Is it because the church is speaking about issues that are irrelevant?

Each faith believes it speaks the inspired word of God.  I can't really think of specific irrelevant ways a church speaks unless they are leaving out what their followers expect to hear.

How much of it can be attributed to the very public failings and actions of high-profile preachers?

I don't think it's helped.  It's definitely created a ton of cynicism toward organized religion.

Could it be about the church losing focus (politics, money and power instead of whatever that gospel thing is supposed to center on - loving your neighbor)?

That has a lot to do with it.  I have a whole logn dissertation on this, you and I can discuss it over lunch sometime, I'll spare readers here with a 5000 word essay.  Churches get so large, their focus winds up getting away from the original purpose of spirituality and charity.  Instead it turns into a weekly fund drive to make the utility payments, debt service, payroll, and saving up for the next big building project.  

The constant reminders of my financial responsibility to the church is probably the #1 reason I don't have a church home.  To me that detracts from the spiritual experience.

Some of you who have "left the church behind" (or maybe you feel that the church has left you behind) I would love to hear why.

I grew up in the Episcopal Church.  St. John's and Trinity.  Along about 1990 the church figured out their membership was down to about 2mm or so and shrinking (might have been 1mm, that's been a long time ago).  They were thinking maybe they needed to become more evangelical.

To me the Episcopal mass was a Sunday obligation learned from the time I was a small child.  Aside from being an acolyte (altar boy) and being in youth group, I never got a sense of belonging.  I would also look around on Sundays and see the same people in their same pews reciting many of the rituals from rote.

I belonged to Methodist, and Covenant churches and felt fairly comfortable there, but again they were two churches getting too big to competently serve all members.  Big enough there was sort of a pecking order amongst parishioners.

I had a personal epiphany about 7 years ago.  I finally figured out there was a difference between religion and spirituality.  Spirituality being the personal relationship with God, Yahweh, or Allah, religion just being one of the ways you can find and nurture that relationship.  

For me, it's a daily one-on-one with God.  It's not based on diluted or interpreted messages of others.  That being said, when I do go to church these days, there's almost always something I heard at church that day I was needing to hear.

I really don't feel the church is leaving the parishioners behind.  People are growing intellectually.  Miracles are now explained away by science or random chance.  People feel their church is too restrictive toward a life-style they want to be able to live guilt-free.

People progressively want God to bend to their will, instead of living within His will or discipline.  Think about how long people have tried to get the Vatican to change it's stance on divorce, birth control, and abortion.  A lot of people have gotten weary of living with a preacher-induced cloud of sin hanging over their heads.

I think we will see Carlton Pearson's church grow beyond Tulsa.  Other preachers don't like the message because they think if everyone is already saved, what's the point in going to church?  Kind of hurts their livlihood, right?  I think people still want fellowship with others on a similar spiritual path.  I think even if everyone is saved, there's always room to learn to become a better humanitarian.

[TheArtist]

To answer, and further hijack the thread lol, why I dont personally go to church? I don't feel or see much of a reason to.  

I have found a church that seems to fit my temperment, personality, and the way I think. Boston Avenue Methodist. I am not the jumping up and down, singing, flopping around on the floor speaking in tongues type person at all. For those who are, go for it and have a blast[8D]. But please dont put me down because I am not. I am more the intellectual, analytical, meditative type. But I will watch Dr Biggs at Boston Ave on TV, that way I dont have to bother with the standing up and singing part, absolutely positively bores me to tears, mind-numingly boring. If ya try to kick back and read or do something else while everyone else is singing, I dont care how nice they are, there is always some little old lady around that will give ya dirty looks. I am like "What? is there some rule that says ya HAVE to sing?" Perhaps I am just too independent, or just haven't found my place.

I think I am a good person who is always trying to be better to grow and become more, to improve myself and to make the world a better place. I have plenty of room to grow, I pretty much know what I need to do, its just getting off my butt and doing them, creating those life habits. I need to relax more, really relax, do yoga, garden, watch sunsets and smell the roses more. I need to exercise more and eat better. Need to work on building friendships, having family and friends over more often, visiting them more often. Need to read more, travel and explore the world more.  I am not unhappy or feel alone, dont have financial troubles, am the absolute luckiest person when it comes to my job. All in all, not bad and getting better.

Why go to church? One reason I can think of is this...

When someone is at a really bad point in their lives or hurting, or when someone has an addiction problem,,, the church can have remarkable success with helping them. Even more than programs that don't have a religious bent. The church, the way it works, what it asks of people to do, the life structure it sets up, and how it asks them to think can definitely make an improvement in that persons life. It can be exactly what they need.  But if your not at that place, those very things can be annoying lol. You may be at a different stage and those things may not be of help to you. Perhaps thats when you begin to take on another chapter in your life and become the person who helps, rather than the helped. You, in a way, become the church that people go to, you carry it around with you werever you go, its essence showing in the daily things you say and do. Perhaps a church will have others like yourself there. Perhaps it will not.

Its kind of like growing up. Many a young person gets to the point where they have issues with their parents. 1. There are those that basically stay children in relation to their parents, and keep the "issues" going. 2. those that grow to be equals with the parent, sometimes realizing they have to demand that the parents treat them as an equal and not as a child. 3. Sometimes the adult child evolves further than the parent and in essence the roles become reversed, the child has to accept that they are the responsible adult, do the right adult things, and be understanding of the parent and their "faults and failings". 4. You cant pick your parents, but you can pick your friends. Sometimes your parents turn out to have been people you wouldnt have picked as friends. Not because either is more or less mature etc. but simply because your different people that dont get along.

People often find that they face those same options, transitions, and realizations with the church.

[Jeff Man]

Recently, the newly formed Oklahoma chapter of the Council of American Islamic Relations (CAIR) was reported to have given a presentation to the Oklahoma State School Boards Association and offering them plenty of material to bring Islam into the public schools in Oklahoma.

This press release ison Islamonline, a Qatar based Islamic internet site which is owned, in part, by HAMAS/Muslim Brotherhood spiritual leader, Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Al-Qaradhawi) who openingly supports suicide bombers! The article was submitted to them by CAIR OK, the Council of American Islamic Relations of Oklahoma!

The Oklahoma Schools Boards Association has denied that CAIR OK did this presentation so there is a definite misunderstanding here or something.

http://www.islamonline.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=33302

-----

Do most American Muslims follow the religious ruling or fatwas of the Islamic Society of North America?. Is this the highest Muslim authority in America?

I was surprised to read on Islamonline issued a fatwa about an American holiday:

Dr. Muzamil Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Soceity of North America (ISNA), issues the following Fatwa:

Halloween is an old pagan holiday of the witches and the dead. Later some Christians tried to Christianize it by calling it "All Saints Day". However there are still many Christians who resent it and consider it a bad holiday. Some of them even call it a "helliday."

Whether Christians accept it or not, we Muslims should not accept this holiday. It is meaningless. Wearing costumes, going tricking and treating and decorating houses with witches, spider nets and wasting so much pumpkins, etc., are all repugnant things. It is strange to see reasonable people acting as weirdo and doing foolish things. It is also becoming quite dangerous nowadays. Some people really act like monsters and witches. Muslims should not participate in this holiday.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543074

[rwarn17588]

Continuing the interesting hijacking of this thread (who cares if Muslims don't like Halloween; I'm indifferent to it myself), I found myself nodding when I read Artist's post.

I quit going to church years ago because, frankly, I could think of about a million things I could do that are more useful or enjoyable.

A few people I know have said, "Maybe you haven't found the right church home." After much trial and as much error, I've resigned myself to that there is no church home for me. I went to my family's church through my teenage years, and have been in dozens of churches since. I finally stopped going because I didn't feel the presence of God, Allah, or whatever she calls herself these days [] and decided to stop fooling myself.

This does not mean there is disbelief. I feel the presence of God when I'm in in the wilds of western Oklahoma and New Mexico, when I'm caring for my beehive, and when I'm listening to Solomon Burke or the Blind Boys of Alabama on my Mp3 player. I'm just a different kind of cat.

I've also grown dismayed with how stupid or myopic some so-called Christians are. I do NOT believe the Bible is the unerring word of God, if for no other reason because it's been translated and retranslated umpteen times by human beings who are fallible. When you're dealing with that many centuries, languages and the inherent accuracy problems with the oral traditions from where Scriptures sprang, something's bound to get fouled up. Why people delude themselves of this possibility is beyond me.

And then you have these fools who believe the universe is just 6,000 years old -- at a time when you can look into the night sky and see stars that are millions of light years away.

I've also grown weary of what I call religious arrogance. You've got people of all stripes who are absolutely convinced their religion is THE way. The last I checked, the Supreme Being has not sent a tangible message on whose religion is best, if there is one at all. There is no proof whatsoever which belief system is best, so to be all arrogant about Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism is presumptuous. Apparently the question, "Has it ever occurred to you that you could be wrong?" has never crossed their minds.

And some cite religion to maintain morality. Feh. Some of the most moral people I know are agnostics or atheists. Good manners and compassion will do as much as any religion. And since they don't know whether there's a better world awaiting, they're motivated to make the current world a better place NOW. This is not a bad thing.

[kakie]

Do you hijackers not see that what you do helps give serious credibility to my inquiries?

Freedom to inquire and the quest for the truth cannot and will not be cowed into silence.  

It just gives me more strength.

[RecycleMichael]

Now kakie...this forum is a conversation...people add their thoughts and sometimes the discussion goes somewhere else.

Just because no one answers your question, it doesn't mean you get credibility.

You seem very informed and opinioned on religious issues. I enjoying reading differing viewpoints, but don't feel qualified or pushed to answer every question raised. Frankly, I like threads better that include what posters actually think rather than two posters trying to fight and demand each other answer each of their questions.

[rwarn17588]

Kakie, the thread has evolved. Discussions do go off into tangents and often taken on a life of their own.

It's been my experience that as long as the off-topic replies are civil and/or interesting, the moderator will leave it alone.

Perhaps the reason no one is answering your inquiries is because the tangent is more interesting.

[Conan71]

Artist and RW- two excellent honest replies in your own walks and beliefs.  

I truly believe God speaks to us in ways and places we each uniquely understand.  For some it comes in a church, synagogue, mosque, or temple.  For some it's admiring the colorful vistas of the mesas of the American southwest, for some getting out and helping the community in tangible ways, for some it comes in creativity, for some deep meditation, and for someone else it might be setting out to circumnavigate the globe in a small sailboat.  

The ways in which we can be touched by a power greater than ourselves is limitless as long as you have open eyes, ears, mind, and heart.

In other words, there's no limits in where we can find our own personal spirituality and how we have communion with God though there are some who don't even recognize it as God but still get the same feeling.  Personally, the God of my personal understanding isn't disappointed when I don't go to church on Sunday.  

I don't hold anyone else's beliefs against them until it starts to impinge on mine.  I never try to influence my views or personal spiritual walk on anyone else.  If there's something that is appealing to others, I don't mind sharing what I have found but I won't push it on someone else un-solicited.  To some, I'm sure they think I'm headed straight to hell.  So be it, if that is their opinion.  Last I checked they aren't God and aren't equipped to make that judgement.

[RecycleMichael]

"O God, that men should put an enemy in their mouths to steal away their brains!"

William Shakespeare
Othello. Act 2, Scene 3

[kakie]

Recently, the newly formed Oklahoma chapter of the Council of American Islamic Relations (CAIR) was reported to have given a presentation to the Oklahoma State School Boards Association and offering them plenty of material to bring Islam into the public schools in Oklahoma.
This press release is on Islamonline, a Qatar based Islamic internet site which is owned, in part, by HAMAS/Muslim Brotherhood spiritual leader, Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Al-Qaradhawi) who openingly supports suicide bombers! The article was submitted to them by CAIR OK, the Council of American Islamic Relations of Oklahoma!

The Oklahoma Schools Boards Association has denied that CAIR OK did this presentation so there is a definite misunderstanding here or something.

http://www.islamonline.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=33302

-----

Do most American Muslims follow the religious ruling or fatwas of the Islamic Society of North America?. Is this the highest Muslim authority in America?
I was surprised to read on Islamonline issued a fatwa about an American holiday:

Dr. Muzamil Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Soceity of North America (ISNA), issues the following Fatwa:

Halloween is an old pagan holiday of the witches and the dead. Later some Christians tried to Christianize it by calling it "All Saints Day". However there are still many Christians who resent it and consider it a bad holiday. Some of them even call it a "helliday."

Whether Christians accept it or not, we Muslims should not accept this holiday. It is meaningless. Wearing costumes, going tricking and treating and decorating houses with witches, spider nets and wasting so much pumpkins, etc., are all repugnant things. It is strange to see reasonable people acting as weirdo and doing foolish things. It is also becoming quite dangerous nowadays. Some people really act like monsters and witches. Muslims should not participate in this holiday.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543074