CAIR OK : Press Release on a Middle East Website

[Wingnut]

quote: I know that the Muslim Brotherhood had "training camps" in Oklahoma. Does anybody have any more details?

I did see a map awhile back that had all the known camps listed and one was in Oklahoma. It was south of here. I'll see if I can find that info for you.

[Johnboy976]

As a soon-to-be Anglican priest (less than three weeks away), I have seen the church (as a whole, no matter the denomination) both shrink and grow in these last few years. We, at the parish I serve, get a lot of people who have grown cynical of their Christian upbringing in the Lexington, KY area. Because we are Anglican, we don't fall on the evangelical line or the Catholic line. We're considered a bridge, and people want to join for that reason. It's close enough to home, but the ability to drink and smoke (moderately) are not condemned. On top of this, liturgy goes back to the active practice of Scripture (which most liturgy originates from). So we have seen growth, but it is less frequent than it used to be.

Concerning the church, the answer to growth is love. I was raised fundamentalist, and so the "prove them wrong" motif was drilled into my head from a young age. I steered away from it when I entered seminary... It's interesting, really. I am not sure where the church actually got that model fundamentalist take from. Typically the beginning church was all about the love of Christ, and nothing about proving the pagan religions wrong (although they did try to legitimize their call to the Jews). As such, Christianity is falling below the majority line in America. However, it has occurred time and time again in the nation's history. That is the reason for the various great awakenings. Several people understood a need, found an appealing theology, and helped the church explode. Eventually, though, the trend of great awakenings will die. Why? Too many denominations as is.

This aside, studies have shown that even though the Church has lost its appeal in many circuits within the American context, Catholic and Orthodox churches are continuing to grow in the US... it's just that the evangelical sector is losing more than the Catholics and Orthodox are gaining. 57% of people were active Christians in 1990, now it's 49%.

On top of this, Christianity is continuing to grow in the world. Unlike Muslims, the majority of this is attributed to converts, not births. In Africa and South America this is realized more-so than anywhere else. The growth is astronomical there.

[rwarn17588]

<Wingnut writes:

Sorry to keep going on the tangent, but I agree with you about the threat we face as a nation. It remindes me of the story about the frog in the pot. Put a frog into hot water and he'll jump out right away, but if you put him in cool water and slowly turn up the heat, he won't feel the change and die. The threat is slow and subtle, but there nonetheless.

<end clip>

Interesting analogy. Too bad it isn't true. It's an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

As a scientist observed:

"As the temperature of water is gradually increased, the frog will eventually become more and more active in its attempts to escape the heated water. If the container size and opening will allow the frog to jump out, it will do so."

This sort of reminds me of all the stuff I've read in recent days about Muslims and religion -- not based in common sense or facts, but on fear and myth.

Quit being ruled by fear, folks. And be skeptical.

And thank you for inadvertently proving my point.

[Wingnut]

Here is the map I was looking for. It's on page 23. It lists all the places that are known training camps.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/ulFuqrab.pdf

Of course, having training compounds in our country, that neighbors hear gunshots from regularly, that has known terror connections, doesn't mean we have anything to worry about.

[rwarn17588]

Gee, you'd better call the cops, then. [}:)]

Oops! Too late! Homelandsecurityus has already tipped them off!!! [}:)]

Note that the document is more than a year old.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

quote: "I find that you learn absolutely nothing about someone's belief if yu ask them 'Do you believe in God?' and they say yes or no.

I agree. Everyone's view of God is different.  Thats why I say let's narrow it down and talk about Jesus, who he was, and what he did.

Let's also keep in mind that Sagan was an atheist.

Sagan was not an atheist.

[Rage]

quote: I know that the Muslim Brotherhood had "training camps" in Oklahoma. Does anybody have any more details?

LoL it's called South Tulsa... They walk around naked on Turkey Mountain scaring people...

Christians have killed more unbelievers than anyone in history, and so it is always wise to be humble and contrite with regard to making otherwise hypocritical statements about the violent propensities of other faith tradtions.

10 minutes discussing the crusades would help drive this point...

(This is a little Inside to a Article in the Oklahoman Tommorow by Dr. Robin Meyers)

[Wingnut]

quote: Sagan was not an atheist.

http://rationalatheist.com/biographies/carl_sagan.html

Carl Sagan quote:
I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

Here is the map I was looking for. It's on page 23. It lists all the places that are known training camps.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/ulFuqrab.pdf

Of course, having training compounds in our country, that neighbors hear gunshots from regularly, that has known terror connections, doesn't mean we have anything to worry about.

This would be the same Homeland department that holds press conferences without the press? With employees pretending to be reporters?

They now have a credibility gap to with the competency gap that they earned after the Katrina.

[TheArtist]

An atheist does not believe in the existance of gods or God. Sagan said he did believe in a God. He considered himself to be a very spiritual person as well. Your specific religion may say that there is a heaven, but just because someone does not hold to all the tenants of that religion does not mean they do not believe in God.




Sagan talked about his then-new book The Demon Haunted World and was asked about his personal spiritual views: "My view is that if there is no evidence for it, then forget about it," he said. "An agnostic is somebody who doesn't believe in something until there is evidence for it, so I'm agnostic."

Sagan resisted the atheism label and self-described as an agnostic.

In a 1981 interview with U.S. Catholic, Sagan said: "I have some discomfort with both believers and with nonbelievers when their opinions are not based on facts ... If we don't know the answer, why are we under so much pressure to make up our minds, to declare our allegiance to one hypothesis or the other?"

In a 1996 interview with NPR's Talk of the Nation, Sagan said (when asked about religious beliefs): "Where's the evidence? Now, the word God is used to cover a wide variety of very different ideas, ranging maybe from the idea of an outsized light-skinned male with a long white beard who sits in a throne in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow--for which there is no evidence, none at all--to the view of Einstein, of Spinoza, which is essentially that God is the sum total of the laws of nature. And since there are laws of nature ... if that's what you mean by God, then of course there's a God. So everything depends on the definition of God."

In a 1996 interview with NPR's Fresh Air, Sagan said: "I find that you learn absolutely nothing about someone's belief if yu ask them 'Do you believe in God?' and they say yes or no. You have to specify which of the countless kinds of God you have in mind."

In another 1996 interview, Sagan told Joel Achenbach: "An atheist has to know more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God."



Sagan does not deny the existence of God. Nor does he affirm it. As he quips in the lively Q&A section appended to the lectures, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." What Sagan does do is insist on the primacy of scientific method and scientific evidence, and he holds the many and various "proofs" of God's existence up to these scientific standards. Most are found wanting. But Sagan is not harsh in his critiques of religious thought; he is more perplexed by theology's narrow and unimaginative vision.

Sagan took his own spirituality seriously -- indeed, he defined science as "informed worship." The closest he comes to articulating his own view of God is to describe admiringly the philosophies of Spinoza and Einstein, who basically considered God the sum total of all the laws of physics. These laws, he emphasizes again and again, govern not just the Earth and humanity but every solar system and every star and every galaxy. They are not local ordinances

[Wingnut]

quote: This would be the same Homeland department that holds press conferences without the press? With employees pretending to be reporters?

I don't know! I doubt it. He was looking for the map and that is where I found it. That's all I'm supplying.
What the report is about is neither here nor there. You read it and decide. I would think if gov't level law enforcement is investigating this group, there must be something to it.

[Jeff Man]

Rage wrote:


Christians have killed more unbelievers than anyone in history, and so it is always wise to be humble and contrite with regard to making otherwise hypocritical statements about the violent propensities of other faith tradtions.

I'd like to know where you got your information.   What source?  Making statements without at least providing a link to the source isn't helpful.  

Thanks.

[rwarn17588]

<Wingnut wrote:

What the report is about is neither here nor there. You read it and decide. I would think if gov't level law enforcement is investigating this group, there must be something to it.

<end clip>

Very well.

I've decided this report is crap.

The map was posted more than 14 months ago, and there have been no arrests relating to them. If there were terror-training sites, you know damned well that the FBI would be all over it like flies on sh*t and that high-profile arrests would have occurred already. About the only thing you'll find in those site are pot growers.

Just because the government investigates something doesn't mean there's something there.  

WMDs in Iraq would be a good example. Or the rape by Duke lacrosse players that wasn't.

[Rage]

quote: I'd like to know where you got your information. What source? Making statements without at least providing a link to the source isn't helpful.  

Ohh I tought you had a Bible on you but you can buy one at Border's or Wal-Mart...

I think they even have a Bible for Dummies at Baren's N Noble for like $20...  

[kakie]

quote:Originally posted by Rage

quote: I'd like to know where you got your information. What source? Making statements without at least providing a link to the source isn't helpful.  

Ohh I tought you had a Bible on you but you can buy one at Border's or Wal-Mart...

I think they even have a Bible for Dummies at Baren's N Noble for like $20...  

Just as I expected, you made a statement:  "Christians have killed more unbelievers than anyone in history, and so it is always wise to be humble and contrite with regard to making otherwise hypocritical statements about the violent propensities of other faith tradtions."

I ask for some backup and your answer is to get a Bible.  Great reply.

I believe most of the Crusades were to fight off Islamic domination.  Read up, buddy.