KU or OU

[Neptune]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Its been a long time. Did Arkansas voluntarily choose the SEC or was the invitation to the Big12 not extended to them? Culturally they are probably a better fit for the SEC anyway aren't they? I think of Ark as more Southern and Texas as more Southwestern.

And BTW, maybe if OU wasn't getting so many Texas recruits, we could get the local boys going to Kansas!

BigXII expansion happened a few years after SEC expansion.

You mentioned Kansas.  Have you seen the quality of player Nebraska has?  It's not close.  That's what happens when you lose a rivalry, and add others.  Yeah coaching has something to do with it, but their squad isn't even in the neighborhood, at pretty much every position.

If you lived in Nebraska, yeah you probably want to go to Nebraska.  But your only serious rivalry was OU, and you only play them every 3rd and 4th year.  You're no longer competing directly with them.  You suffer a down season, who are you competing against?  Iowa State, Mizzou, Kansas?  And the memories of Nebraska being a good team, are about as old as memories of Kansas State or Colorado being a good team.  OU vs Nebraska used to be a big deal, it's nothing now.

That domination, that used to be Nebraska, it ain't coming back.  They'll be good again, sometime.  But they'll never have the edge they had in the Big8.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Neptune

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Its been a long time. Did Arkansas voluntarily choose the SEC or was the invitation to the Big12 not extended to them? Culturally they are probably a better fit for the SEC anyway aren't they? I think of Ark as more Southern and Texas as more Southwestern.

And BTW, maybe if OU wasn't getting so many Texas recruits, we could get the local boys going to Kansas!

BigXII expansion happened a few years after SEC expansion.

You mentioned Kansas.  Have you seen the quality of player Nebraska has?  It's not close.  That's what happens when you lose a rivalry, and add others.  Yeah coaching has something to do with it, but their squad isn't even in the neighborhood, at pretty much every position.

If you lived in Nebraska, yeah you probably want to go to Nebraska.  But your only serious rivalry was OU, and you only play them every 3rd and 4th year.  You're no longer competing directly with them.  You suffer a down season, who are you competing against?  Iowa State, Mizzou, Kansas?  And the memories of Nebraska being a good team, are about as old as memories of Kansas State or Colorado being a good team.  OU vs Nebraska used to be a big deal, it's nothing now.

That domination, that used to be Nebraska, it ain't coming back.  They'll be good again, sometime.  But they'll never have the edge they had in the Big8.

Yeh, I remember hearing those words several times about the OU program over the last 45 years. Too bad no one is ever held accountable for them. I'm not a fooball fanatic but I do love history and watching human nature. Here's my take.

"No one will ever replace Wilkinson. No young person wants to go to boring Norman to play football in a has been program. Texas will get all the best recruits since they dominate in the series. Wishbone players don't make it in the NFL. Switzer killed recruiting with his gun slinger attitude. Probation will kill the Sooners program just like it did SMU. No coach can survive losing to Texas and Nebraska in the same year. The Big 12 can't compete with the coasts." Ad nauseum. Yet through some mysterious process, the OU program survived and prospered. Others do too. Maybe...coaching? Maybe...recruiting? Maybe...alumni support? High expectations from competent AD's? Maybe...some intangible that Boise State, TU and other small colleges seem to have found as well?

Tell me, great football swami, is Notre Dame doomed to the same dismal future as Nebraska? Many of the same ingredients for failure are there. Are Alabama and Miami doomed as well? I just can't buy that tradition rich, well endowed and supported programs are just going to fade away because their conference weakens or a rivalry fades. Georgia comes and goes. Auburn and Bama too. We're all going to start loving Nascar and West Coast ballet football because the polls tell us to? They'll be back.

No, these programs have stadiums to fill, salaries to pay and alumni to satisfy and they will come back.

[Neptune]

Nope, Notre Dame, Alabama, Miami, all fine.  Though there's been questions about the Miami program for some time, mainly that they peaked in the 80's (sort of like K-State in late 90's or Colorado in the late 80's/early 90's) and they won't be back too soon.

Yeah it's cyclical.  And teams come in go.  Nebraska and OU have been, during the Big8, extremely resistant to cycles.  Kansas, K-State, Mizzou, and with a few exceptions Colorado, all class clowns.  Remember K-State's 30 game losing streak?  They tore the freaking goal posts down when they finally beat Columbia (I think that was the school, maybe Citadel).

The OU vs SMU comparison is just plain wrong.  SMU is a private, old poisoned pill of the SWC.  Maybe, in several decades, SMU will reach that level again.  OU lost the Nebraska rivalry in the BigXII expansion, but gained 3 Texas Teams including the other two big state schools.  OU lost nothing.  SMU lost every hope it had when the SWC broke up.

Did you ever hear the rumor about the BigXII wanting to make Nebraska vs OU a "special" every-year game?  Not that it will happen.

Nebraska will be good again.  Nebraska will win the BigXII championship again.  

They'll never have the edge they had in the Big8.  From a money standpoint they're fine, but Expansion is not an "everyone wins" scenario from a recruiting standpoint.

[Neptune]

Also, during Expansion, the edge you lose goes to your rivals.  In Nebraska's case, their rivals are Kansas, Mizzou, K-State, Colorado, and Iowa State.

Even though all 5 were doormats for most of the Big8, all 5 have improved in the BigXII.  Even lowly Iowa State, which really has a competitive disadvantage to the Big10, has shown some signs of strength the last 12 years.

[Neptune]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Waterboy,

Broyles set the whole deal in motion as I remember and that set off a chain reaction throughout the conferences.  I don't recall the exact reason for the change, might have been better revenue-sharing, maybe wanting to aim higher and have more quality opponents in their conference.  I really can't say for sure.

The SWC was crumbling.  SMU's death penalty was a killer for the conference.  SMU was a historic conference powerhouse, and it hurt the SWC bad to lose them.  All the Texas teams were milling about aimlessly, Arkansas was the only good squad in the Conference.  The SWC was no longer competitive.

The SEC on the other hand, got permission from NCAA to expand by 2 teams and to have a Championship game.  They signed up South Carolina and Arkansas.

That was the final nail in the SWC coffin.  Losing Arkansas meant that the Texas, A&M, and Tech, only had each other and a handful of private schools to recruit against.  Private schools, unless they're a big name (like Notre Dame or the historic SMU), can't compete with big state schools regularly.  The cost is too high to have "walk on" depth.

SMU still has no identity.  Their SWC identity, and their recruiting base, came from the fact that they played the big Texas state schools.   It's not coming back because they play no names, the prime recruits that can't make the Big XII Texas squads, head north of the Red River.  SMU usually gets second and third tier players, from it's own state.

[Conan71]

I can't think of another program that had such a big fall from grace and has never recovered  the likes of what's happened at SMU.  What was it, around '87 or so when they gave them the lethal injection?  They went from perennial contender to chronic door mat.

Man, they were "the" team in the early to mid '80's.  It was one of the colleges I considered attending.  Not due to football so much, but that certainly helped spread the word about the institution.

[Neptune]

Yeah, somewhere around there, 86, 87, or 88.  It was terrible, but SMU unfortunately did everything they could to deserve it.

Had that not happened, the SWC might be around today.  Or, maybe the Mustangs would have been brought into the BigXII instead of Baylor.

[Conan71]

Things like continuing to pay players while on probation and blatantly lying about it gets the fecal matter to contact the oscillating cooling device at the NCAA.

Damn shame, seems like I heard or read at one time that they either had the most successful I-A record in the nation between '80 or so and '85 or one of the top three records in I-A.

[Neptune]

I believe SMU won a National Championship somewhere in there.

Won't be happening again anytime soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_I-A_national_football_championship#By_year

1982, shared it with Penn State.

[Neptune]

Did you guys see Oregon fall last night?

I think that'll make Kansas #2, unless they're hopped.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Neptune

Did you guys see Oregon fall last night?

I think that'll make Kansas #2, unless they're hopped.

The idea of Kansas playing for a national championship wouldn't have crossed anyone's mind at the beginning of the season.  I'm not sure they'd want to move into #2 at this point, what's that make, five #2 teams who have been beaten now.  The World was referring to it as a "curse".

I really don't see OU losing to Tech, though OSU loves to screw up OU's title hopes.  Should be an interesting scramble the next couple of weeks with the top teams.

If KU could pull off a national championship, I wouldn't be the least disappointed.  Hell, I might even send a truckload of beef to Mark Mangino.

[Neptune]

Looks like OSU's Adarius Bowman is out for the Baylor and OU games, questionable for a bowl game.  OSU probably has enough raw talent at WR to continue moving the ball on Baylor (if not, they won't have to worry about a bowl game).  Maybe not enough experienced depth at WR to stay competitive against OU.

[waterboy]

What were the pollsters thinking? Or smoking? Oregon was #2 in fantasy land. Their defense was porous and their offense was hapless without their quarterback. How's that for balance? Honestly, the polling this year is more suspect than usual. Might as well contract it out to American Idol.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

What were the pollsters thinking? Or smoking? Oregon was #2 in fantasy land. Their defense was porous and their offense was hapless without their quarterback. How's that for balance? Honestly, the polling this year is more suspect than usual. Might as well contract it out to American Idol.

Congratulations Waterboy, you are the honored recipient of the coveted "Coffee-Spitting Laugh Of The Day" award.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

What were the pollsters thinking? Or smoking? Oregon was #2 in fantasy land. Their defense was porous and their offense was hapless without their quarterback. How's that for balance? Honestly, the polling this year is more suspect than usual. Might as well contract it out to American Idol.

Congratulations Waterboy, you are the honored recipient of the coveted "Coffee-Spitting Laugh Of The Day" award.

Thank you very much. Not as good as your "crack" on another thread however.[]