$294 Million TIF for the River District approved

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

JPS is being called on to securitize this transaction. Have you even looked at the consequences if this deal were to go bad?

I have read the proposal and the law regarding the creation of a TIF. Have you?

Show me where JPS is being asked to "Securitize" this transaction. That is simply not true. They are forgoing most of 18 years of property taxes on a mostly retail complex. That does not mean they are the loan guarantor.

[FOTD]

Poo Pooing? What's that? And, thrown to the wind?

Smells like Jenks to me....

Can't believe everything you read....

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.

That's great. Then the developer should be able to do this transaction on it's own merits without welfare.

Hmm!  Don't get it?  

Lets examine the difference between a TIF and Welfare.

A TIF is simply a structured reinvestment of tax money used to finance a project that is anticipated to generate a surplus of taxable revenue to the area. Granting a TIF on a project usually ensures increased interest in the project by retailers because it promises continued infrastructure support and promotion by the city.

WELFARE is money given to an individual to finance the purchase of cigarettes, crack, Quarter Pounders, and diapers.  Granting WELFARE ensures the continued unemployment of the individual and promises another generation of idiots.

See, there's a big difference!

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

JPS is being called on to securitize this transaction. Have you even looked at the consequences if this deal were to go bad?

I have read the proposal and the law regarding the creation of a TIF. Have you?

Show me where JPS is being asked to "Securitize" this transaction. That is simply not true. They are forgoing most of 18 years of property taxes on a mostly retail complex. That does not mean they are the loan guarantor.

You are correct when using the term for financing purposes. I meant it helps to dress up their financial statements....

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.

That's great. Then the developer should be able to do this transaction on it's own merits without welfare.

Hmm!  Don't get it?  

Lets examine the difference between a TIF and Welfare.

A TIF is simply a structured reinvestment of tax money used to finance a project that is anticipated to generate a surplus of taxable revenue to the area. Granting a TIF on a project usually ensures increased interest in the project by retailers because it promises continued infrastructure support and promotion by the city.

WELFARE is money given to an individual to finance the purchase of cigarettes, crack, Quarter Pounders, and diapers.  Granting WELFARE ensures the continued unemployment of the individual and promises another generation of idiots.

See, there's a big difference!

Welfare= government assistance because of hardship....seems to fit.

I could be wrong....in doubt.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.

That's great. Then the developer should be able to do this transaction on it's own merits without welfare.

Hmm!  Don't get it?  

Lets examine the difference between a TIF and Welfare.

A TIF is simply a structured reinvestment of tax money used to finance a project that is anticipated to generate a surplus of taxable revenue to the area. Granting a TIF on a project usually ensures increased interest in the project by retailers because it promises continued infrastructure support and promotion by the city.

WELFARE is money given to an individual to finance the purchase of cigarettes, crack, Quarter Pounders, and diapers.  Granting WELFARE ensures the continued unemployment of the individual and promises another generation of idiots.

See, there's a big difference!

Welfare= government assistance because of hardship....seems to fit.

I could be wrong....in doubt.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

I understand your point but don't agree with your view.  

We simply see the role of government differently (probably on most issues).

In my view, money is generated by businesses and individuals engaging in business.  The government taxes these entities to support infrastructure and a host of other items that the people (of Jenks and/or Oklahoma) voted necessary to the continued prosperity of their community.  

In the example of a TIF, the government is simply agreeing to use the money it receives from an established geographic area (in this case the immediate development and small benefitting area) to provide financial support in the form of an investment in the project with an agreed upon expiration date.  This investment is earmarked mostly for necessary infrastructure improvements such as roads, sewer, power, water and detention for the project.

If I understand your view of government, you see it as more of a parent figure.  Dealing equality and providing support to the masses.  You view a TIF as a gift or a bribe to a developer, kind of like paying a prostitute.

[FOTD]

Spoon.... your icon pic is Karl Marx? Right?

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Spoon.... your icon pic is Karl Marx? Right?

Calm down.  Not everyone with a beard is Karl Marx.  

Don't make fun of my Christmas card picture!

I have my mother's eyes.

[FOTD]

^Hillarious!(not to be confused with Hillary.)

[TheArtist]

There are several things I like about this large development versus say, allowing many small developers to slowly fill in the area.

1.  Any really large development of this kind is likely to ask for some sort of TIF. So if we dont want a large development of this sort, we are going to say that property should be developed by lots of small developers. The city will then be liable for a lot of infrastructure versus the large developer doing it.

2. The small developments will not have the density this large one will. They are not going to do living surrounding a large parking garage. Not likely to put in midrise office and condo buildings there. Not likely to have the nice, organized street/town square plan. Not at all as likely to have as nice building designs, and buildings that compliment eachother, extra landscaping, parks, fountains, etc. that will make the area more than just another shopping area.  Without a large, planned development, you will likely end up with something like what you see on the Tulsa side of the river, the Kohls, Neighborhood Market typical bland suburban shopping or the Tulsa Hills type thing. Not a higher density, destination and attraction.

3. It will raise more taxes because it will be built sooner than the alternative of gradually filling up the area with numerous small things over... who knows how long a time. A higher density, mixed use, large project like this will in the long term be more beneficial to the area than lots of small, strip mall type developments.  It will raise more taxes because of its density. It will raise more taxes because it is an attraction and destination, not just another shopping area.

4. Because of its layout and mixed use density it will be more liveable and sustainable. A large development like this can spend more money on quality of design, its coordination, layout, amenities, extras that any good city would want. Think of the money Jenks has put into its main street beautification projects, parks, etc. This will do all of that right up front. Many small developments over time, like on the Tulsa side of the river will not build anything as nice as this development will be and the amenities it will have. This will basically a new downtown for Jenks. I will be THE downtown for Jenks imo. It should be done right with attention to details and such, much like what Tulsa is trying to do and spending millions on to do to get its downtown in order and looking nice. Or... it can be just another bunch of ratty strip malls or perhaps a small nice development along the river and years and years of other small develoments behind that slowly filling up the space.

5. It will take years for that area to fill up without this development so the difference in time that Jenks will start getting tax dollars from it wont be that much. 18 years till they get the 12mill a year this way. Who knows how many years it would take for that area to find developers, get their plans going and approved, built,and fill up with smaller developments. Its not as though they will even be getting the amount the developer IS offering during their  build time. And even then, in the end it may not be as dense or as much of an attraction and money maker as it would have been if they had let this large development go through.

[Conan71]

Aside from my minor bits of caution in re: retail density in Tulsa Co. and possible economic slowdowns, Artist, I agree.

One area I think JPS has been a little short-sighted on is that a development like this will undoubtedly begat more single-family housing development on both sides of the river which is going to be higher ticket homes, not cheap tract housing.  SFAIK, the TIF is limited to this particular tract and not any extensive outlying developments.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by Vision 2025

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

850K sq. ft. of retail space.  That's a lot.  Especially w/ Tulsa Hills going up to the north of Jenks.

The way I read the article, there seems to be 850,000 sq. ft. of mixed use. In any case, if it is in the flood plain then the Corps of Engineers might help with the dirt movement. If not, was Lynn Mitchell aware of all the infrastructure expense prior to purchasing the land? If so, he's set Jenks up. If not, he's not a worthy developer in the first place.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

The CORPS cannot participate in a flood plain mitigation project unless the project removes significant existing property from that flood plain.

Mister Crowe... If I am understanding your statement correctly...?
The only way the "Corps of Engineers" can become involved.... is..... if the project's purpose is the removal of structures or buildings so on and so forth from the flood plain...?

I know what I got from your statement is more than likely inaccurate....... Can you please clarify.?

[FOTD]

Artist.....one of "the father's of Tulsa Real Estate" once told me...."big companies make big mistakes".

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Artist.....one of "the father's of Tulsa Real Estate" once told me...."big companies make big mistakes".

?   What are you talking about?

You saying, All big companies always make big mistakes? This development would be bad because its done by a big company? You sayingm tif or no, this is a bad development?

[spoonbill]

Wow!  Talk about momentum.  Just saw the deal going in across the street (Elm).  Around 200k sq.ft. of high-end office/retail.  Very Utica Square like, but with stone and brick buildings.  Lots of fountains and open cobblestone space.  

Most of the structures will be retail below and office above 2 story brick and stone.  Kind of a loft office look.  I'll see if I can get ahold of some elevation sketches.

Privately funded project.