$294 Million TIF for the River District approved

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Artist.....one of "the father's of Tulsa Real Estate" once told me...."big companies make big mistakes".

?   What are you talking about?

You saying, All big companies always make big mistakes? This development would be bad because its done by a big company? You sayingm tif or no, this is a bad development?

where in my words did it say "all"?
Big companies make big mistakes and their timing too often is not good....Again, welfare for the wealthy makes no sense to me. Putting public school funding at any risk for a small return is not logical. And now, we have Glenpool adding even more retail at 151st and 75.....there are only so many discounters that can come to discount city (or River City).

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Artist.....one of "the father's of Tulsa Real Estate" once told me...."big companies make big mistakes".

?   What are you talking about?

You saying, All big companies always make big mistakes? This development would be bad because its done by a big company? You sayingm tif or no, this is a bad development?

where in my words did it say "all"?
Big companies make big mistakes and their timing too often is not good....Again, welfare for the wealthy makes no sense to me. Putting public school funding at any risk for a small return is not logical. And now, we have Glenpool adding even more retail at 151st and 75.....there are only so many discounters that can come to discount city (or River City).

Well why mention it? Its obvious both large and small companies can make mistakes and of course big companies can make big mistakes. Its like coming on here and saying the sky is blue. No duh!

Jenks school funding at risk?  They will, more likely, get more money with this development than a "theoretical" bunch of small ones. Your taking a risk either way and I see that this is less of a "risk".

[FOTD]

JPS will get more money if the project works. What is the cost to JPS if the project fails?

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

JPS will get more money if the project works. What is the cost to JPS if the project fails?

Why don't you detail it for us? If the project fails and the developer defaults and the project is not completed what IS the impact to JPS, and please be specific.

[FOTD]

I don't know. That's why I asked....

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

I don't know. That's why I asked....

If the project fails the cost to JPS is nothing, if it goes through there will be an incremental cost to educate the any children that live in the complex, thus the payment to JPS from the project.

If the project fails the property taxes remain at nearly nothing. If the project succeeds, then JPS will benefit directly from the project, the argument today is over how much.

JPS will also benefit indirectly by the project succeeding due to an related increase nearby property values, both commerical and residential.

[FOTD]

If the project fails, there will be an opportunity cost. Also, East Central never benefited from Eastland Mall. And the area around the mall turned ugly. Property values in that portion of town have been stagnant for over 35 years.

Recognize it or not there is risk.

Why does JPS oppose this structure if it's such a win win scenario?

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

If the project fails, there will be an opportunity cost. Also, East Central never benefited from Eastland Mall. And the area around the mall turned ugly. Property values in that portion of town have been stagnant for over 35 years.

Recognize it or not there is risk.

Why does JPS oppose this structure if it's such a win win scenario?

The JPS board doesn't oppose the project. But, JPS is the entity that is giving up most potential tax revenue and want more to remain with JPS.  I don't blame them for that, but it doesn't make them in the right.

And, Eastland Mall was not a TIF to my knowledge and I think you have it backwards.  The low income and not growing area around the mall hurt the mall. It was east Tulsa that made Eastland Mall not viable, not the other way around.

Lastly, as for opportunity cost. This site is not a normally viable commercial site, it's in the floodplain, and may actually be in the floodway. A LOT of the cost is site work, a new lake is going to be built to fix the site.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

If the project fails, there will be an opportunity cost. Also, East Central never benefited from Eastland Mall. And the area around the mall turned ugly. Property values in that portion of town have been stagnant for over 35 years.

Recognize it or not there is risk.

Why does JPS oppose this structure if it's such a win win scenario?

Good point!  But the motivation behind the granting of a TIF for Eastland was to revitalize an area and attempt to steer growth to the east rather than the South.  It was really a stupid idea.  The development was totally dependent on attempts to change the natural growth pattern of a city.  It was arrogant and, I will say again, STUPID.

The Jenks project is taking advantage of an existing and increasing growth trend and there is huge amounts of positive demographic data to support it's success.  

There is always risk.  The idea is to find the deal with the highest return and lowest risk.  I would have to say that in 20 years of development, this is one of the least risky development projects I've seen.  

Wish I'd thought of it first, wish I had a stake in it.

I know what your going to say, and I'm all ready for the gambling analogy, so let her rip.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD


Why does JPS oppose this structure if it's such a win win scenario?

I'm personally not very fond of the current JPS school board. There was a "spirited" election last year for the board where the award winning president of the board lost and I don't know that the right person won.  The board certainly is making some really questionable decisions lately.

Even worse than the issue with the River District is that the The JPS Board has refused to hire enough teachers, they actually have empty classrooms at Jenks West Elementary and Intermediate (where they claim they are having such problems with all the students from the not yet open Tulsa Hills) and are paying fines to the state for class size. In past years the board just approved the hiring of new contract teachers at the start of each year to fix class sizes, but not this year. They are spending money on fines instead of teachers. They also have instituted a policy where even gifted children are not allowed to receive class work that is beyond their grade level.  They instead receive "enhanced" learning at the same grade level as all other students. I'm sure there are other issues, but these are the ones that impact my kids and their schools.

These issues and the River District solidify to me the need for change on the JPS board. There are a lot of very mad parents and teachers over what is going on with the gifted program and class sizes and everyone I know in Jenks wants the River District to work. I don't know who the JPS board is serving, but it's not their constituents. People in Jenks are very proud of the school systems and want is badly to be the very best, but right now people are mad and getting worse with the decisions of the JPS board.

[FOTD]

Thanks for the information. I see where you are coming from and know you know what you are talking about.....we'll just disagree on our method and degree of government intervention.

How big are these fines and do they result from 1031?  How many more teaches does Jenks need? What's the average class size as exists and what level is the goal?

Jenks has always been known for superior public schools in Oklahoma. Are there other reasons as well for the decline? Will the board serve as scapegoat and new people voted in to solve the problem? How?? It doesn't seem to me this situation with River City development helps this. If anything, it may make it tougher to solve the problem by cutting cash flow.

I get the impression our politicians here would rather see no public schools than making it a continued function of the government. Especially  when they sanction and prioritize intervention in areas not affected by blight with TIFF financing over the public's welfare in education.

[TheArtist]

The River District in no way cuts the cash flow, it increases it.

[swake]

The Jenks city council unanimously approves the River District TIF. Jenks Public Schools now supports the plan, they will get $7.5 million from the developers and another $5.7 million from the city of Jenks. Lynn Mitchell says construction will start in March on the billion dollar project.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071218_1_A19_hAfte02577

[Rico]

Aye swami swake.....

Is it possible that a "suburb" can tax it's way into becoming a "metropolis"....?

if so.... what will happen to all those people that moved to Jenks to be away from the noise and traffic of the City..?[}:)]

[FOTD]

Yeppers.... a double post.

Restructuring experts see tough '08 for retailers
January 4, 2008
WASHINGTON (AP) – Bankruptcy and restructuring professionals are expecting a New Year's gift from the retailing industry: more business.
Retailers are expected to have a hard time luring shoppers struggling with higher mortgage payments, fuel costs and dwindling confidence in the U.S. economy in 2008. Experts say companies competing for a slice of the diminished consumer-spending pie will find it difficult to avoid trouble if they're already carrying a heavy debt load.
Although only a small percentage of Americans have adjustable-rate mortgages scheduled to reset to higher rates next year, the home-foreclosure crisis has frightened consumers that do have the extra cash to spend. As a result, bankruptcy and restructuring experts believe Americans will grow more tightfisted in 2008.
"Not only do you have people with less money, but you have a sector of the population who thinks they may have less money in the future," said Richard A. Chesley, a partner at the Paul Hastings law firm.
Consumer confidence has been shaken over the last few months. The Conference Board's index of consumer confidence rose slightly in December, but Americans remained uneasy about the economy, said Lynn Franco, director of the board's consumer research center. Consumers' claiming conditions are "good" decreased to 20.3 percent from 22.5 percent. Those saying conditions are "bad" increased to 20 percent from 18.9 percent.
"Uncertainty in the job market, people worrying about paying heating bills, mortgages and relative gloom over the economy is really fueling the drop in consumer confidence and until we get out of that, the retail sector will be hurt," Chesley said.
Experts say specialty retailers could be especially hard-hit if 2008 turns into a difficult year for U.S. consumers. Chesley said that when the economy hits a bump and discretionary spending and consumer confidence drop, specialty retailers that cater to a subset of consumers are subject to the greatest bankruptcy risk.
Several specialty retailers suffered financial setbacks in 2007. Competition from electronic retailing rivals caused CompUSA Inc. to close its stores and Tweeter Home Entertainment Group Inc. to seek Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Home-furnishings retailers Bombay Co. and Levitz Furniture Inc. also filed for bankruptcy last year.
William K. Snyder, managing partner at turnaround firm CRG Partners, said the trend is likely to continue well into 2008, with bankruptcy filings or out-of-court liquidations particularly prevalent in the home furnishings, accessories and improvement sectors.
Pier One Imports, World Market and other stores that had competed with Bombay are on his watch list, Snyder said, as well the home accessories departments of Home Depot Inc. and Lowe's .
These stores depend on what Snyder calls a "change in lifestyle." Buying and decorating a new home fall under that category, but consumers have all but abandoned the real-estate market.
Chesley said struggling homeowners aren't the only ones who have less money to spend at retail stores. As home sales in the United States slow and fewer homes are built, the discretionary spending of those who work in the real estate and homebuilding industries will also fall.
A number of homebuilders filed for bankruptcy in 2007, including Neumann Homes Inc., one of Chicago's largest residential builders, California home builder Dunmore Homes Inc. and Levitt Corp.'s Levitt and Sons LLC.
"People who are having difficulties making payments on their homes are obviously taken out largely from the discretionary spending pool," Chesley said. "On the other side of that same equation, as less homes are being built, everybody that is associated with that industry has less discretionary income to spend."
Peter J. Antoszyk, a partner at law firm Proskauer Rose, said restructuring professionals are already starting to get calls from retailers. Most retailers, however, are likely to pick up the phone for restructuring services after the holiday season is over and they've had a chance to take stock of how they did during the Christmas shopping frenzy, he said. So far, holiday retail sales have fallen short of industry expectations.
Chesley said retailers can expect to face a difficult time throughout 2008.
The number of adjustable-rate mortgages slated to reset will peak early next year, but the repercussions – rising foreclosures and diminished consumer spending – will be felt during the months that follow.
"Retailers will have to weather what looks to be a long-term turbulence," Chesley said. "I think we have to see this housing crisis ride out before retailers can get the pressure lifted."
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