Another Week, Another # 1 & # 2 Knocked Off

[Conan71]

Sheesh, what a season.  I don't think anyone saw Pittsburgh coming, they were 4-7 coming into this game.

OU Mizzou was a toss-up w/ me.  OU has had some late season melt-downs in the Stoops era, and the loss to Tech had to have left Mizzou thinking revenge was realistic.  All OU in the second half.  Good job.  Now let's see if they get to play KU in the Fiesta.

[Neptune]

It'll be interesting to see if Missouri takes a flop against Arkansas, and Kansas does the same against Virginia Tech.

I hope Hawaii can make a game out of it with Georgia.

[Neptune]

Those late season meltdowns occur for a reason.  They aren't accidents.  

I think OU's lucky they drew West Virginia.  Other than Hawaii, WV has to be the weakest team in the BCS bowls.  I'm not even sure WV would beat Hawaii.  Sinc BC, Virginia Tech, and Miami left for the ACC, the Big East is a joke in football and probably shouldn't be a BCS conference.

[Conan71]

LSU's win over Tennessee wasn't all that impressive, I'm disappointed they are playing for the title.

[Neptune]

LSU hasn't had many impressive wins, but then again, it's the SEC.  Other than Vandy, they're all tough in ways.  That annihilation of Virginia Tech helped their cause quite a bit.

Some are saying USC should go, some are saying OU should go.  The only logical ones IMO are Georgia or LSU.  

USC won the PAC10, with two losses.  PAC10 is simply not as strong as the SEC or even the Big10.  

OU's toughest games have been against potentially over-ranked teams (Texas and Missouri twice).  The only thing that says Missouri should have been number one last week, was that they beat Illinois to start out the season, and they beat Kansas who beat no one of BCS significance.  Otherwise, who did Kansas and Mizzou play?  OU's title hopes can't hinge solely on beating Texas, Texas beat no one of BCS significance.  

You have to lose no more than 1 game to come out of the PAC10 or BigXII, and go to a BCS Championship.  Or you have to hope the Big10 and SEC are bruising each other pretty bad.  People want to believe the BigXII is as tough as the SEC, but that hasn't been right in years.  Conference toughness doesn't come from the leaders, it comes from everyone else.  That's exactly why Hawaii isn't playing for the Championship.

[cannon_fodder]

I'm not an SEC worshiper - nothing has proven them the superior conference.   They do not dominate bowl games, out of conference games against other BCS conferences, nor do they have any more BCS Championships than the Big 12 or the Pac 10.  

They certainly have great fan support and field damn good football teams.  But the "SEC RULES!" idea is a self fulfilling prophecy - because the SEC rules they start higher in the polls, a loss to an in conference rivals doesn't hurt ranking that much, and so on.  From there recruiting is easier, they have better TV contract, more money for better facilities and the snow ball rolls on.

Basically, they are a power conference with amazing fan support and good teams.  But they are clearly NOT dominant.

[Neptune]

And the BigXII leaders played who?  And OU lost to who last year in the Fiesta bowl?  If OU beats WV, it proves little.  If they lose, it proves everyone right about weakness in the BigXII.

The BigXII normally, not always, but normally loses as many bowl games as they win.  Until the bulk of the BigXII is competitive, they simply aren't as strong as the SEC.  You go back through SEC Championships, and you see a whole bunch of teams.  Compare that to the BigXII.

It's the same with any conference.  TU plays in CUSA, it's not tough enough top to bottom to be a BCS conference.  Doesn't matter if you go undefeated in that conference, you're not playing in a BCS Championship.

Until the North wins a BigXII championship, or someone besides OU and Texas come out of the South, the BigXII's toughness is questionable.  The domination by OU and Texas has hurt the conference as far as "competitiveness" with other conferences.  Someone else in the BigXII has to prove they're BCS worthy.

[cannon_fodder]

I have to agree with you Neptune.

IA State, K State, Colorado - even Nebraska is weak.  Let alone Baylor.  Hell, even OSU is fairly weak this year.

In fact, I'd match the top half of C-USA up very favorably against the bottom half of the big 12.

UCF > OSU
Tulsa > Nebraska (good year to get that feather!)
E. Car > Colorado
S. Miss  > K State
Memphis > IA State
and I'd let Houston pound Baylor.

Of  course C-USA can not compete with the likes of Texas or OU.  OU has more football revenue in a given year that all the C-USA schools spend put together.  The big boys will remain so for a long, long time ($ = facilities and good coaches = good recruits = butts in the seats = $).  I'm just happy there is some parity coming back into the game.

I digress...

The SEC is a great football conference, but the pretension that is rises above all others just doesn't do it for me.   When the SEC takes on all commers and consistently wins I'll buy into it.  As long as they split their bowl games, win a proportional share of national titles, and beat up scrubs for out of conference play I consider them a BCS conference that is doing well... but not dominant.  

[Neptune]

The real question goes back to the Kansas question.  People were saying, rightly so, that Kansas has played no one until they met Mizzou.  BUT, they played 7 (now BigXII teams.  You play 66% of the BigXII, and your schedule is weak?  You play in the BigXII, lose 1 game all year in a season full of 2 games losers, and you don't make the BCS Championship?  In the BigXII, your strength of schedule comes from OU or Texas.  That's it.

Had anyone in the SEC been in the same position Kansas was, losing only one game, even had they not played in the SEC Championship, they'd probably be in the BCS Championship ahead of all the two-game losers.

It's not the leaders that make toughness, it's everyone else.  And OU and Texas sweeping the BigXII, yeah it's a big deal, but no one questions LSU's strength of schedule or Georgia's strength of schedule, or pretty much anyone in the SEC.  The BigXII strength is as questionable as the Big10's or maybe even Pac10's or ACC's.  Of course, no one is as low on the BCS totem pole as the Big East.

But it's not always like that.  It's just been recent years.  Once the BigXII North puts up a contender, or someone else wins the South, the BigXII will be back up there.  Then they'll have a right to complain when an SEC team gets picked over a BigXII team.

I like parity too.  I don't think Hawaii has the guns for Georgia, but I'll be pulling for the Warriors.

[Conan71]

OU has earned their place in the BCS.  They can't blame the computers, pollsters or whatever.  Neptune made excellent points.  You just don't lose to teams like Texas Tech or Colorado this year and expect to be in the championship game.  On the whole the Big XII was not that strong a conference this year.  Get Nebraska, Colorado, and K-State hitting on all cylinders for a full season and it would get more respect.  Same with Texas, OSU, and A & M.

Too bad for Kansas they don't get to play in a title game after their turnaround, but it might have spared them a national humiliation like USC/OU.  

OU can be so damn unpredictable just when you think they are going to rip a team and come up short.

[Neptune]

It's hard to gauge how good OU or Texas is.  Can't gauge them by the BigXII, and their collective non-conference schedules were weak.   Even the bowls won't really tell.  If Kansas can beat Virginia Tech, that's probably a good sign for the BigXII.  Of course, no one really knows how good the ACC is this year.

If LSU beats Ohio State, the BCS has a problem.  Especially if it's close.  There might be a separate AP Champion this year.  And somewhere between 3 and 8 teams might deserve a piece.  OU might squeak out a share.  An Ohio State win probably locks everyone else out, but I'm not very confident in the Buckeyes.

[cannon_fodder]

By that measure we can't tell how good the SEC is either.  OU played Oregon last year and Miami this year for OOC play (not their fault Miami sucks, they tried).  Texas had Ohio State a couple years back.  Generally the SEC out of conference is ULM (who won) and a few C-USA teams.  Not a good gauge by your estimation.

In fact, the SEC was 1/5 out of conference against ranked teams this year:
http://www.collegefootballseason.com/gamedetails.cfm?ConfId=24&OOC=1&Ranked=1

But I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of Kansas schedule as weak for a BCS title shot.  Their marquee win was over Oklahoma State - who ends the season ranked just below Tulsa at #44.  Kansas is a well coached and consistent team for sure, a good team - but not among the best IMHO.

Hope I'm wrong, its fun to watch a whipping boy do well now and then.

[Neptune]

And again, if that's the best Kansas can do, then it's also the best Mizzou can do, and OU, and Texas.  Yes, Kansas had a weak schedule.  The only difference with Mizzou, is that Mizzou played Illinois in the season opener and Mizzou lost twice to OU.  They were both overrated, both played weak schedules, and both were discovered later.  That's all of your North strength right there.  Kansas benefited by not playing Texas or OU.  Mizzou benefited by not playing Texas.

Mizzou got beat twice by their only known BCS worthy South Opponent.  Beating Illinois may not have been as big as it looks right now, the Big10 is turning up weak.  Kansas played no one of BCS significance except for the highly questionable Mizzou, who barely beat them.  

Texas and OU played no one of BCS significance, other than Mizzou and Kansas.  You may not have known Miami was that bad, but if you followed them last year, you'd have known.  There was very little chance Miami was going to be BCS worthy this year.

Tennessee played Cal and Southern Miss in non-conference.  Which one is worse than Miami?

Alabama played Houston and Florida State.

Miss State played UAB and West Virginia.

LSU played BCS worthy ACC champion Virginia Tech, and smashed them.

Kentucky beat rival Louisville, finally.

South Carolina played North Carolina and Clemson.

Not only is the BigXII weak internally which is the reason Kansas has a weak schedule, but of the four teams that have a claim to some BCS significance, only Mizzou has an argument for a single tough non-conference game.  And that's highly questionable, as the Big10 may be overrated too.   The Big10 #3 couldn't beat Appalachian State, got destroyed by Oregon, then smashed through the conference before losing 2 in a row late.  That's a bad sign for the Big10.

And speaking of bowls, and non-conference.  10 out of 12 SEC teams went bowl eligible this year.  The BigXII managed to fill it's 8 spots, which isn't always the case.

[Neptune]

I do wonder if Kansas can beat Virginia Tech.  Or if Mizzou can beat Arkansas.  I think both of them can, but...

Back in 1998, KState was heading for undefeated if they could get past A&M in the BigXII championship.  They couldn't, they lost, and didn't even make a BCS bowl at all.  Even though they finished BCS #3.

They completed the season in the Alamo Bowl, losing handily to Purdue (I think).  

That's what happens when you get BCS Championship hopes, only to catch an upset and spin into a lesser bowl.  Kansas and Mizzou have to overcome that problem.

[cannon_fodder]

Beating Louisville, S. Miss, UAB, or North Carolina this year gains you no respect and even Florida State is a marginal victory this year.  And Tulsa beat Houston by 50 so that gets you nowhere.  In fact, all of those teams ended the season ranked LOWER than Tulsa.  So we need to count Tulsa as a quality opponent for OU.

The only quality OOC win for the SEC is LSU over Va. Tech - and no one is diminishing the quality of LSU.  The only other RANKED teams the SEC played were:

Mississippi losing to Missouri
Auburn losing to South Florida
Miss. St. Losing to WV
and the Game Cocks losing to Clemson

SEC:  1/5 out of conference against ranked opponents.  You can say the SEC teams were caught on an off year if you want, but frankly it illustrates my point:  good league, not dominant.  When you list 6 quality wins that are all ranked below Tulsa it draw my point into light.

I won't bother defending the Big 12 because I do not think they are dominant either.  The Big 10 is weak.  The Big East is iffy except WV.  The ACC is all screwy this year except Va Tech. & Clemson.   The PAC 10 fielded a nice roster this year (USC, Oregons, Arizona St.). The SEC is probably the best conference, but not dominant.  

I guess that is what bowl season is all about.