Think the police will change?

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Have you guys seen those bastard police officers out helping those allegedly suffering from this storm. Just look at them, "pretending" to care about Tulsa citizens and "pretending" to tolerate the freezing temperatures and rain and slick streets while more likely than not their own families are without power. I saw a couple of police officers helping a stranded motorist near a downed power line. No doubt the police staged that potentially life-threatening scene to appear as if they are heroic. Sorry, I did not have my digital camera to record the latter event. No one on this thread would beileve it.  Hey, here's a thought, let's hire three plaintiff lawyers or form a Citizens Commission to handle this weather disaster. I bet those folks would brave the temperature and dangerous conditions to make a difference in this world.

Excellent time for TPD to get mucho Overtime.

Yeah Friendly, that's what its all about. Making money. The police are just raking it in over there.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Have you guys seen those bastard police officers out helping those allegedly suffering from this storm. Just look at them, "pretending" to care about Tulsa citizens and "pretending" to tolerate the freezing temperatures and rain and slick streets while more likely than not their own families are without power. I saw a couple of police officers helping a stranded motorist near a downed power line. No doubt the police staged that potentially life-threatening scene to appear as if they are heroic. Sorry, I did not have my digital camera to record the latter event. No one on this thread would beileve it.  Hey, here's a thought, let's hire three plaintiff lawyers or form a Citizens Commission to handle this weather disaster. I bet those folks would brave the temperature and dangerous conditions to make a difference in this world.

Please read my standard disclaimer in my post.

I would never argue that police do more harm than good.  But even the cops that are currently out helping are guilty of the minor infractions i have mentioned.  I expect the me employees who exist to enforce the laws to do nothing less than FOLLOW THE LAWS.  This includes seemingly petty things like speed limits, traffic laws, and due process.

and wow, Police doing their jobs and helping people.  Strange that you felt the need to point that out since that is what should USUALLY be happening.  Of my direct encounters of the TPD (not counting them running lights in front of me or wizzing by me on the highway) I'd saw 85% have been very positive [one tried to give me a ticket for going 40 in a 40 - he thought it was a 35 and refused to admit he was wrong].

And hey, I spent 16 hours the first 2 days chainsawing my street clear, helping neighbors, and  other miserable tasks in 33 degree rain.  Heck, i wasn't even employed to help the citizens of Tulsa.  How amazing (read: expected).

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Have you guys seen those bastard police officers out helping those allegedly suffering from this storm. Just look at them, "pretending" to care about Tulsa citizens and "pretending" to tolerate the freezing temperatures and rain and slick streets while more likely than not their own families are without power. I saw a couple of police officers helping a stranded motorist near a downed power line. No doubt the police staged that potentially life-threatening scene to appear as if they are heroic. Sorry, I did not have my digital camera to record the latter event. No one on this thread would beileve it.  Hey, here's a thought, let's hire three plaintiff lawyers or form a Citizens Commission to handle this weather disaster. I bet those folks would brave the temperature and dangerous conditions to make a difference in this world.

Please read my standard disclaimer in my post.

I would never argue that police do more harm than good.  But even the cops that are currently out helping are guilty of the minor infractions i have mentioned.  I expect the me employees who exist to enforce the laws to do nothing less than FOLLOW THE LAWS.  This includes seemingly petty things like speed limits, traffic laws, and due process.

and wow, Police doing their jobs and helping people.  Strange that you felt the need to point that out since that is what should USUALLY be happening.  Of my direct encounters of the TPD (not counting them running lights in front of me or wizzing by me on the highway) I'd saw 85% have been very positive [one tried to give me a ticket for going 40 in a 40 - he thought it was a 35 and refused to admit he was wrong].

And hey, I spent 16 hours the first 2 days chainsawing my street clear, helping neighbors, and  other miserable tasks in 33 degree rain.  Heck, i wasn't even employed to help the citizens of Tulsa.  How amazing (read: expected).

Yeah, "read my standard disclaimer, then watch me turn right around and rip away..." CF

Sorry buddy, you are an ingrate.

[cannon_fodder]

An ingrate is one who shows no gratitude, my statements make it very clear that I am grateful for the job they perform.  I simply want the police to live up the image they portray - it's hard to enforce the laws you don't follow without being a hypocrite.

Watching me "rip away" is watching me state that I expect officers to follow the laws. I will need you to explain to me how expecting officers to follow ALL the laws they enforce makes me somehow ungrateful or even offensive.  I, and most everyone else, commonly observes officers breaking the laws they enforce.  Wanting to see that behavior stop is offensive to you?

What the hell?  Do you not realize that the perception of a minimal level of corruption in the justice system (starting with law enforcement) is essential for its functioning?  The more people see cops running red lights, speeding, and getting caught cheating citizens in court the less faith we will have and more problem officers will have doing their jobs.  The last thing I want is to live in a neighborhood or society where the police are viewed with actual suspicion (not just many ignore minor traffic laws and a few are corrupt, but that MOST look to plant evidence and such - that perception leads to serious problems).

Then I point out that I was just as heroic as the officers by helping out my neighbors that were allegedly suffering because I was "pretending" to care - and I did so without overtime pay!  Gasp!  Doesn't that make me some kind of hero?  Should you not be singing my praise because I not only did my job (as a citizen) and did not break any laws while doing it, but I did so without overtime pay.

I helped people out of goodwill, bow down and worship me.  

You ingrate.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

An ingrate is one who shows no gratitude, my statements make it very clear that I am grateful for the job they perform.  I simply want the police to live up the image they portray - it's hard to enforce the laws you don't follow without being a hypocrite.

Watching me "rip away" is watching me state that I expect officers to follow the laws. I will need you to explain to me how expecting officers to follow ALL the laws they enforce makes me somehow ungrateful or even offensive.  I, and most everyone else, commonly observes officers breaking the laws they enforce.  Wanting to see that behavior stop is offensive to you?

What the hell?  Do you not realize that the perception of a minimal level of corruption in the justice system (starting with law enforcement) is essential for its functioning?  The more people see cops running red lights, speeding, and getting caught cheating citizens in court the less faith we will have and more problem officers will have doing their jobs.  The last thing I want is to live in a neighborhood or society where the police are viewed with actual suspicion (not just many ignore minor traffic laws and a few are corrupt, but that MOST look to plant evidence and such - that perception leads to serious problems).

Then I point out that I was just as heroic as the officers by helping out my neighbors that were allegedly suffering because I was "pretending" to care - and I did so without overtime pay!  Gasp!  Doesn't that make me some kind of hero?  Should you not be singing my praise because I not only did my job (as a citizen) and did not break any laws while doing it, but I did so without overtime pay.

I helped people out of goodwill, bow down and worship me.  

You ingrate.

Uhhhh, Nope, last post doesn't help. You are still an ingrate. Maybe we should wait until after this weather mess is straightened out, when the police can quietly return to random beatings of citizens, planting evidence, or otherwise simply not living up to YOUR expectations, before we debate the issue.

[cannon_fodder]

Guido, you are clearly not getting the point.

I do not think most cops plant evidence, beat citizens or the like.  I want to give the citizenry LESS reason to believe such proven actions are common place.  One way of doing so would be to cut down on the petty violations that citizens see all the time.

If nothing else, answer one question for me:

Is expecting officers to follow the law an unreasonable expectation?

I guess I fail to see where your complaint is coming from.  If you feel that the police should be above the law then I total disagree with you as fervently as I can.  If you feel that I am condemning officers at large then you are not reading critically.  All public servants MUST be open to public criticism to sustain a free society.

If nothing else, please answer my above question.  If you feel it is unreasonable, there is no need to discuss with you really.

[rwarn17588]

Guido not getting the point seems to be his standard M.O.

[}:)]

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa_fan

Such ungrateful people, at least ***** about something that is worth it.  This isn't even topic!

If this is a sympathy competition:  no one I know has power, not one person I could stay with.  So my family sits at home in the cold instead of at a friends.  And hey, instead of overtime I actually missed work (read lost pay) and spent 10+ hours each day helping people out anyway.  So while I understand it is hard for you and I can empathize with your situation, the sympathy level around here just isn't shooting up.

That said, why is this "not a thread?"  Are you not concerned that the action of some of your husbands brothers on the thin blue line effecting the public image of him?  Do you not expect your husband to follow the laws he is asked to risk his life to enforce?

I just don't get why criticizing police for breaking the law is controversial to some people.  I'm an attorney - do I defend other attorney's who embezzle money, over charge, or other illegal and unethical behavior because some attorneys are in it for the greater good?  I simply don't get it.  

I would think law abiding police, their families , and most people who support a law abiding society would agree that those that enforce the laws should be expected to follow them.  As with Guido, if you for some reason think the police are above the law then I wholeheartedly disagree.

and again, since some people NEVER get it.  I understand the job of a policemen is very hard at times.  Dealing with scuzzy and dangerous people, working odd hours and so on.  I greatly appreciate the vast amount of good they do and recognize that they enable a civil society.   However, at the end of the day they are public employees and citizens - just like me.  They are compensated to perform a vital job but have no special prowess to usurp the legal system or other day to day laws. I appreciate that the scandals are such because such horrific breaches are rare - but I think they can do better.

[Conan71]

quote:
I love Clark Brewster.  He represented Rico Yarbrough. He tried everything to get him accuited. He almost got thrown in jail for contempt of court on two occassions during the trial.  In the end,  he just couldn't overcome the recorded phone conversations. When he gets really mad in court, he moves his head back and forth and he looks kind of like a rooster.

His huge head looks like a television set...

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by tulsa_fan

Such ungrateful people, at least ***** about something that is worth it.  This isn't even topic!

If this is a sympathy competition:  no one I know has power, not one person I could stay with.  So my family sits at home in the cold instead of at a friends.  And hey, instead of overtime I actually missed work (read lost pay) and spent 10+ hours each day helping people out anyway.  So while I understand it is hard for you and I can empathize with your situation, the sympathy level around here just isn't shooting up.

That said, why is this "not a thread?"  Are you not concerned that the action of some of your husbands brothers on the thin blue line effecting the public image of him?  Do you not expect your husband to follow the laws he is asked to risk his life to enforce?

I just don't get why criticizing police for breaking the law is controversial to some people.  I'm an attorney - do I defend other attorney's who embezzle money, over charge, or other illegal and unethical behavior because some attorneys are in it for the greater good?  I simply don't get it.  

I would think law abiding police, their families , and most people who support a law abiding society would agree that those that enforce the laws should be expected to follow them.  As with Guido, if you for some reason think the police are above the law then I wholeheartedly disagree.

and again, since some people NEVER get it.  I understand the job of a policemen is very hard at times.  Dealing with scuzzy and dangerous people, working odd hours and so on.  I greatly appreciate the vast amount of good they do and recognize that they enable a civil society.   However, at the end of the day they are public employees and citizens - just like me.  They are compensated to perform a vital job but have no special prowess to usurp the legal system or other day to day laws. I appreciate that the scandals are such because such horrific breaches are rare - but I think they can do better.

Ooohhh. That explains alot.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Guido, you are clearly not getting the point.

I do not think most cops plant evidence, beat citizens or the like.  I want to give the citizenry LESS reason to believe such proven actions are common place.  One way of doing so would be to cut down on the petty violations that citizens see all the time.

If nothing else, answer one question for me:

Is expecting officers to follow the law an unreasonable expectation?

I guess I fail to see where your complaint is coming from.  If you feel that the police should be above the law then I total disagree with you as fervently as I can.  If you feel that I am condemning officers at large then you are not reading critically.  All public servants MUST be open to public criticism to sustain a free society.

If nothing else, please answer my above question.  If you feel it is unreasonable, there is no need to discuss with you really.

I get your point. I got it the first time. This statement from your post in this thread is what triggered my "ingrate" accusation:

"and wow, Police doing their jobs and helping people. Strange that you felt the need to point that out since that is what should USUALLY be happening."

What does that statement have to do with YOUR point about police following the law? Absolutely nothing. What is does show me, however, is a lack of gratitude or perhaps contempt for the police. Gee, sort of fits the definition of an "ingrate", don't ya think? Indeed, that soldier died for his country, but isn't that their JOB!

And RW, I fully expect you to weigh in with the correct 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendment constructs governing police misconduct once this thread gets there.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

I have a feeling no news media individuals will make a complaint because it simply did not happen like you said.

Did you already forget the part where they phoned their supervisors?

quote: There is no reason to get a subpoena for something that people are willing to just give to you.

Why follow the law when you can bully your way?   Reporters dont work at the pleasure of police, and they were right to stand their ground and not surrender the only copies of their footage in an illegal seizure.  It's just a shame the average citizen doesnt have a legal department on-call to quickly intervene during abuses.

quote:I make fun of the black helicopter people because they are the ones that always scream, "The tapes were altered or everyone is in on the fix!"

Muskogee defense attorney Lance McCrary is the one complaining about the edited dashcam video.  The Tulsa World also reported they were not allowed to examine the recording in detail.  Black Helicopter People?

As of this date, no complaint has been received from any media outlets regarding the seizure of any tapes of the incident.  No media outlet was "bullied" into giving the tapes up. There was no illegal seizure. Is that clear enough for you?

The average person can know their rights.

Lance McCrary is attempting to get his client out of trouble. His first defense for his client was "The trooper is lying." After the tape was released, his second defense for his client was "the tape has been altered!". That was the only defense for his client left to him.

The Tulsa world received copies of the original. They wanted THE orginal or at least access to the orginal.  That is simply not going to happen when there is litigation pending.

Oh Pardon, Monsieur.

When the Tulsa police shoot someone to death, no INDEPENDENT investigation is ever conducted.

Rather, the Police investigate THEMSELVES.

How can the police be INDEPENDENT to investigate themselves?

Answer:

They CANNOT.

When the police investigate a police shooting death, the facile D.A. is already inking up the
"JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE" rubber stamp.

Period.

All of what seems to the citizen as murderous madness actually has a rationale basis:

Namely, to make you AFRAID.

Be Afraid.  Be very Afraid.  This could happen to you.  

Obey, or ELSE.

Welcome to the New World Order, Kameraden.

[}:)]

Who would you like to do the investigation?

Greg Bledsoe.

or,

Clark Brewster

or,

Louis Bullock.

How's Zat?

THREE (3) independent investigators.

I'll volunteer as a fourth.

Here's a panel that would be right up your alley, Clark Brewster, Louis Bullock, Ed lutz, Jeff Fisher, Caesar Latimer, and Michael French.

I'm sure that is the kind of "independent" investigators you are looking for.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by guido911
I get your point. I got it the first time. This statement from your post in this thread is what triggered my "ingrate" accusation:

"and wow, Police doing their jobs and helping people. Strange that you felt the need to point that out since that is what should USUALLY be happening."

What does that statement have to do with YOUR point about police following the law? Absolutely nothing. What is does show me, however, is a lack of gratitude or perhaps contempt for the police. Gee, sort of fits the definition of an "ingrate", don't ya think? Indeed, that soldier died for his country, but isn't that their JOB!

Let me frame the argument:

Me:  Police should follow the laws.
Guido: The police help people, you're an ingrate.
Me: The Police are supposed to help people, they still need to follow the laws.
Guido: Stop saying the police are bad.

So your argument is the police help people so criticizing them for breaking the law makes me ungrateful?  Totally irrational.  

and to answer your question, the statement has little relation to my point - it was directed at YOUR point.  Your response to "they should follow the law" was "they help people."  Therefor making my counter point "they are supposed to help people" a response to your tangent, thus redirected attention and shortly thereafter restating my original point:  that police should follow the laws they enforce.

So... if wanting the police to follow the laws and expecting them to help people while repeatedly expressing my gratitude for the good they perform is inexplicably ungrateful, then yes, I'm an ingrate.  However, I would be deeply troubled if you do not share the same expectations for police officers in your community.  What in the hell is the point of having a police force if you do not expect them to follow the laws and help people?
- - -

and since you are now into coaxing comments and then trying to utilize them as stand alone points I'll be perfectly clear here... in response to your solider comment:

I never said "they were just doing their jobs and therefor deserve no gratitude."  I am grateful for the QT clerk who rapidly checks me out.  To the firemen who cleans up the oil slick after an accident.  To the janitor who cleans my office.  And to the doctor who quelled my friends cancer.  Even though they are just doing their jobs and I EXPECT them to do so - I remain grateful (and no, I am not implying my gratitude to the QT clerk is on par with my gratitude towards perhaps more noble professions).  For most, this is not a hard concept.  

I expect the police to help people and it is their job.  I am very disappointed when they do not.  But I remain grateful for the task they perform.

Likewise, it is - unfortunately, on occasion a soldiers job to die.  I expect a U.S. soldier to put themselves in harms way and if need be to stand their ground and die.  I would be disappointed if a service man or woman abandoned their unit in a firefight.  But that expectation of service in harms way in no manner, way, shape or form diminishes my gratitude to any service member nor my remorse for those that are injured or killed.

Similarly, I criticize the conduct of our service members when they break the law.  Abuse of prisoners, disrespect to the Iraqi people, and on rare occasions even murder.  I think our soldiers should follow the laws set down for them and am disappointed when they do not.  However, that does NOT diminished my gratitude for the job they are performing nor does it imply that I think all, most, or even many soldiers are guilty of serious infractions.

I hope you see the parallel and consistency in my answers.  I have been perfectly clear in my responses and positions and have been met by extrapolations and insults.  If you have any questions in my position or lingering doubt about my gratitude feel free to ask.  I hope I did not write this in such a way as to be insulting, but I attempted to make it entirely clear and cover any misconception you may either have or conjure.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

I have a feeling no news media individuals will make a complaint because it simply did not happen like you said.

Did you already forget the part where they phoned their supervisors?

quote: There is no reason to get a subpoena for something that people are willing to just give to you.

Why follow the law when you can bully your way?   Reporters dont work at the pleasure of police, and they were right to stand their ground and not surrender the only copies of their footage in an illegal seizure.  It's just a shame the average citizen doesnt have a legal department on-call to quickly intervene during abuses.

quote:I make fun of the black helicopter people because they are the ones that always scream, "The tapes were altered or everyone is in on the fix!"

Muskogee defense attorney Lance McCrary is the one complaining about the edited dashcam video.  The Tulsa World also reported they were not allowed to examine the recording in detail.  Black Helicopter People?

As of this date, no complaint has been received from any media outlets regarding the seizure of any tapes of the incident.  No media outlet was "bullied" into giving the tapes up. There was no illegal seizure. Is that clear enough for you?

What is clear is that you are rewording my questions to avoid having to face them.

Media at the scene RESISTED unlawful demands by officers to turn over their original tapes, despite officers at the scene threatening them with arrest.  The reporters immediately COMPLAINED via their supervisors by cell phone.  The stations then COMPLAINED to police administration to halt the unlawful actions of it's officers. The department was later provided with duplicates of the video once legal procedure was followed.
Seizing reporters notes/tapes/pictures in the field is not something honest LEO's do, is not department procedure and is a violation of law.

Had police followed the law they would not have had their hands slapped, but the fact remains the officers at the scene intended to seize the only pictures of them killing the mental patient.

quote:The Tulsa world received copies of the original. They wanted THE orginal or at least access to the orginal.  That is simply not going to happen when there is litigation pending.

Wrong.  The Tulsa World was not given any video.  The OHP trooper's lawyer played an edited DVD of the alleged potty-mouthed traffic stop in his office in front of a reporter.  When the World asked for a copy of the DVD the lawyer refused.  They were also denied any opportunity to independently validate the original recording.  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071004_1_A13_hrpah60381
Doing so would have verified whether or not the audio was edited separate from the video track, or that the evidence was tampered with.
This is the main reason Oklahoma needs to include dashcam video in the open records act and make it public record (as most other states have done).

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

I have a feeling no news media individuals will make a complaint because it simply did not happen like you said.

Did you already forget the part where they phoned their supervisors?

quote: There is no reason to get a subpoena for something that people are willing to just give to you.

Why follow the law when you can bully your way?   Reporters dont work at the pleasure of police, and they were right to stand their ground and not surrender the only copies of their footage in an illegal seizure.  It's just a shame the average citizen doesnt have a legal department on-call to quickly intervene during abuses.

quote:I make fun of the black helicopter people because they are the ones that always scream, "The tapes were altered or everyone is in on the fix!"

Muskogee defense attorney Lance McCrary is the one complaining about the edited dashcam video.  The Tulsa World also reported they were not allowed to examine the recording in detail.  Black Helicopter People?

As of this date, no complaint has been received from any media outlets regarding the seizure of any tapes of the incident.  No media outlet was "bullied" into giving the tapes up. There was no illegal seizure. Is that clear enough for you?

What is clear is that you are rewording my questions to avoid having to face them.

Media at the scene RESISTED unlawful demands by officers to turn over their original tapes, despite officers at the scene threatening them with arrest.  The reporters immediately COMPLAINED via their supervisors by cell phone.  The stations then COMPLAINED to police administration to halt the unlawful actions of it's officers. The department was later provided with duplicates of the video once legal procedure was followed.
Seizing reporters notes/tapes/pictures in the field is not something honest LEO's do, is not department procedure and is a violation of law.

Had police followed the law they would not have had their hands slapped, but the fact remains the officers at the scene intended to seize the only pictures of them killing the mental patient.

quote:The Tulsa world received copies of the original. They wanted THE orginal or at least access to the orginal.  That is simply not going to happen when there is litigation pending.

Wrong.  The Tulsa World was not given any video.  The OHP trooper's lawyer played an edited DVD of the alleged potty-mouthed traffic stop in his office in front of a reporter.  When the World asked for a copy of the DVD the lawyer refused.  They were also denied any opportunity to independently validate the original recording.  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071004_1_A13_hrpah60381
Doing so would have verified whether or not the audio was edited separate from the video track, or that the evidence was tampered with.
This is the main reason Oklahoma needs to include dashcam video in the open records act and make it public record (as most other states have done).

Okay. One more time. No media outlet filed a formal complaint with the police department for the incident. Officers told the media outlets they would need the tapes for evidence. Some of the news stations willingly gave the video of the incident to the officers at the scene. Others said they would need a subpoena.  Officers at the scene said okay but they did tell the cameramen to stay at the scene.  The officers needed to check with their supervisors to see if they could let the video leave or if we need to hold it there until a search warrant was obtained. An agreement was reached between the news outlets and the police regarding the custody of the tapes.  The police now have the tapes.

Seizing videotapes of crimes in progress is something police officers do.  Sometimes officers get a warrant for the video and sometimes they just get permission.  

It should also be noted that no police hands were slapped during this incident.

The OHP incident was posted on several websites.  The lawyer for Rocky Northcutt did not give Rhett Morgan his only copy of the incident.  Lance McCrary was given a copy of the video.  I thought the Tulsa World got the video.  I guess everyone but the Tulsa World got a copy. I guess OHP doesn't think much of the Tulsa World.

I guess you better get busy writting your state congressman about making dashcam videos part of the open records act.  Maybe if they do, the state would be forced to fund webcams for all department vehicles!