It's The Economy, STUPID!.....

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

"%68 is a meaningless garble of characters '...

That was obviously 68 percent.
The article link was posted and reported that foreclosures were up %68 over last November. That's rather large. Instead of attacking the messenger, try attacking the problem. yes, the ability to pay off bills immediately works fine for those who can. How many are living on the edge?

"NEW YORK, Dec 17 (Reuters) - U.S. stocks ended sharply lower on Monday on worries the housing slump was dragging on the economy at the same time that inflation was posing a growing menace.

Based on the latest available data, the Dow Jones industrial average .DJI fell 172.65 points, or 1.29 percent, to end unofficialy at 13,167.20. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index .SPX was down 22.03 points, or 1.50 percent, to finish unofficially at 1,445.92. The Nasdaq Composite Index .IXIC was down 61.28 points, or 2.32 percent, to close unofficially at 2,574.46. (Reporting by Caroline Valetkevitch; Editing by Jan Paschal) "

http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN1764225020071217


Outside of Oklahoma, the American economy is stagnating with the likelihood of a "session" of some nature over the next couple of years. Looks like the neo con economic theory of reinflating the economy through huge expenditures in the MIC will not work out to be quite what they anticipated.

And then there's the problem these neo cons have created by handing the states the weight of
deficits...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071218/ap_on_re_us/state_finances;_ylt=An5P90RizzFViw9QwAAPH8Cs0NUE

"We're at the early stages of some pretty serious problems and whether or not those get worse depends on what happens with the national economy," said Corina Eckl, NCSL's fiscal program director."

Time to buy snap on tools?

Well golly!  We're doomed.  I hear Belize has a nice growing economy, as does Costa Rica.  Perhaps you should consider a move?  

You have really convinced me!  The economy sucks.  Corporations are evil.  I'm gonna loose everything.  Most Americans have no future.  There is a vast right-wing conspiracy bent on the destruction of the working class. Global warming is going to melt my synthetic blend shirt.  My carbon foot-print is so big that if it fills with water from the melting polar ice caps I will surely drown.  911 was engineered by Bush.  Islam is a religion of love and tolerance.  High taxes are good.  No one educates our children better than the government.  Ambition and personal responsibility are sins to be punished.  Christianity is the devil. . . "Help me Obama Kenobi, your my only hope."

Aww. . . Just kiddin!  You're silly. []

[FOTD]

^" Christianity is the devil. . . "

http://satiricalpolitical.com/?p=1290

hee hee

Charles Darwin said,
"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."

[cannon_fodder]

Oklahoma Foreclosures down 8.7%
Business Report Strong Quarter
Economic Outlook Bright for Oklahoma

There are some headlines you must have glazed over, just from todays paper...
- - -

1. The VAST majority of people in trouble are in trouble by their own fault.  If you can not "immediately" pay off your bills, you have too many bills.  The "dangers" of credit have been well known in Oklahoma since the dust bowl.  Live within your means and this will not be a problem.

The other small group with medical debt or other unavoidable problems deserves sympathy.  But most just spent themselves into ruin.  Too bad.  I go without fancy cars (paid cash for my used Nissan and Taurus), no big house (= to one years family income), no lavish toys, and no expensive vacations.  My only debt load is my mortgage and student loans (ugh, "only" student loans from 8 years of college).  If I can "do without," so can they.

2. I mocked the % thing because I pointed it out before, it is a consistent error so I figured you were doing it to annoy me.

3. The DJIA is not the economy.  It is not even the markets.  But as I have shown you it is way, way up over the last 7 years.  On any given day you could report a negative number on the market and it may or may not be indicative of anything.  It is an economic indicator, and currently it is flat - as it usually is approaching an election.

not to mention, when it does well you state that it only matters to the rich.  One way street on that?

My market tip for the end of year:  buy dollars.  If you transfer wealth out of dollar assets stop the transfer.  The dollar is undervalued.  There is a risk that China or OPEC could send it tumbling on pure demand side economics, but that appears unlikley to be the case (both would lose out).  I'm not confident enough to transfer back to dollars, but I'm confident putting my assets in dollar ventures (US Funds).  When the sub prime scope is known and the presidential race is 1 v 1 confidence will return (hurting exports... sell that German importer stock and buy into cfc).

4.  As far as I know, Deficit Spending to Raise GDP is a democrat trick.  Didn't Roosevelt invent it with the New Deal?  Pretty sure, yeah...  The tax cuts were supposed to stimulate the economy, not the spending.  At least, not as far as I ever knew.  Anyone who thought that was the plan is a fool (else have 100% taxation and watch the country prosper!).

5.  They have been forecasting recession for the entire term of the Bush presidency.  It is no surprise they are calling for it again now.  A year ago when the housing bubble burst the sky was going to fall.  When the dollar started its steady decline it was all over.  When Sarbanes Oxley  forced all our finance jobs to London it was the end!  But we go on and our economy keeps growing at an acceptable 3-6%.

With full employment and the best efficiency in the world, I'm afraid slower economic growth is probably assured.  Unless, of course, we find a new growth sector (like the Dot Com in the 90's), perhaps the weak dollar will see manufacturing boom again.
- - -

How does Darwin explain the Horseshow Crab, which has not changed since prehistoric times (and has super cool blue blood).

Actually, I'm a big Darwin fan.  that just popped into my head.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Oklahoma Foreclosures down 8.7%
Business Report Strong Quarter
Economic Outlook Bright for Oklahoma

There are some headlines you must have glazed over, just from todays paper...
- - -

1. The VAST majority of people in trouble are in trouble by their own fault.  If you can not "immediately" pay off your bills, you have too many bills.  The "dangers" of credit have been well known in Oklahoma since the dust bowl.  Live within your means and this will not be a problem.

The other small group with medical debt or other unavoidable problems deserves sympathy.  But most just spent themselves into ruin.  Too bad.  I go without fancy cars (paid cash for my used Nissan and Taurus), no big house (= to one years family income), no lavish toys, and no expensive vacations.  My only debt load is my mortgage and student loans (ugh, "only" student loans from 8 years of college).  If I can "do without," so can they.

2. I mocked the % thing because I pointed it out before, it is a consistent error so I figured you were doing it to annoy me.

3. The DJIA is not the economy.  It is not even the markets.  But as I have shown you it is way, way up over the last 7 years.  On any given day you could report a negative number on the market and it may or may not be indicative of anything.  It is an economic indicator, and currently it is flat - as it usually is approaching an election.

not to mention, when it does well you state that it only matters to the rich.  One way street on that?

My market tip for the end of year:  buy dollars.  If you transfer wealth out of dollar assets stop the transfer.  The dollar is undervalued.  There is a risk that China or OPEC could send it tumbling on pure demand side economics, but that appears unlikley to be the case (both would lose out).  I'm not confident enough to transfer back to dollars, but I'm confident putting my assets in dollar ventures (US Funds).  When the sub prime scope is known and the presidential race is 1 v 1 confidence will return (hurting exports... sell that German importer stock and buy into cfc).

4.  As far as I know, Deficit Spending to Raise GDP is a democrat trick.  Didn't Roosevelt invent it with the New Deal?  Pretty sure, yeah...  The tax cuts were supposed to stimulate the economy, not the spending.  At least, not as far as I ever knew.  Anyone who thought that was the plan is a fool (else have 100% taxation and watch the country prosper!).

5.  They have been forecasting recession for the entire term of the Bush presidency.  It is no surprise they are calling for it again now.  A year ago when the housing bubble burst the sky was going to fall.  When the dollar started its steady decline it was all over.  When Sarbanes Oxley  forced all our finance jobs to London it was the end!  But we go on and our economy keeps growing at an acceptable 3-6%.

With full employment and the best efficiency in the world, I'm afraid slower economic growth is probably assured.  Unless, of course, we find a new growth sector (like the Dot Com in the 90's), perhaps the weak dollar will see manufacturing boom again.
- - -

How does Darwin explain the Horseshow Crab, which has not changed since prehistoric times (and has super cool blue blood).

Actually, I'm a big Darwin fan.  that just popped into my head.

Had to brush up on my evolution.  This helped!

Mr./Ms. Garrison teaches evolution

Can you eat Horseshoe Crabs?  Do they taste like Cashew Chicken?

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Oklahoma Foreclosures down 8.7%
Business Report Strong Quarter
Economic Outlook Bright for Oklahoma

There are some headlines you must have glazed over, just from todays paper...
- - -

1. The VAST majority of people in trouble are in trouble by their own fault.  If you can not "immediately" pay off your bills, you have too many bills.  The "dangers" of credit have been well known in Oklahoma since the dust bowl.  Live within your means and this will not be a problem.

The other small group with medical debt or other unavoidable problems deserves sympathy.  But most just spent themselves into ruin.  Too bad.  I go without fancy cars (paid cash for my used Nissan and Taurus), no big house (= to one years family income), no lavish toys, and no expensive vacations.  My only debt load is my mortgage and student loans (ugh, "only" student loans from 8 years of college).  If I can "do without," so can they.

2. I mocked the % thing because I pointed it out before, it is a consistent error so I figured you were doing it to annoy me.

3. The DJIA is not the economy.  It is not even the markets.  But as I have shown you it is way, way up over the last 7 years.  On any given day you could report a negative number on the market and it may or may not be indicative of anything.  It is an economic indicator, and currently it is flat - as it usually is approaching an election.

not to mention, when it does well you state that it only matters to the rich.  One way street on that?

My market tip for the end of year:  buy dollars.  If you transfer wealth out of dollar assets stop the transfer.  The dollar is undervalued.  There is a risk that China or OPEC could send it tumbling on pure demand side economics, but that appears unlikley to be the case (both would lose out).  I'm not confident enough to transfer back to dollars, but I'm confident putting my assets in dollar ventures (US Funds).  When the sub prime scope is known and the presidential race is 1 v 1 confidence will return (hurting exports... sell that German importer stock and buy into cfc).

4.  As far as I know, Deficit Spending to Raise GDP is a democrat trick.  Didn't Roosevelt invent it with the New Deal?  Pretty sure, yeah...  The tax cuts were supposed to stimulate the economy, not the spending.  At least, not as far as I ever knew.  Anyone who thought that was the plan is a fool (else have 100% taxation and watch the country prosper!).

5.  They have been forecasting recession for the entire term of the Bush presidency.  It is no surprise they are calling for it again now.  A year ago when the housing bubble burst the sky was going to fall.  When the dollar started its steady decline it was all over.  When Sarbanes Oxley  forced all our finance jobs to London it was the end!  But we go on and our economy keeps growing at an acceptable 3-6%.

With full employment and the best efficiency in the world, I'm afraid slower economic growth is probably assured.  Unless, of course, we find a new growth sector (like the Dot Com in the 90's), perhaps the weak dollar will see manufacturing boom again.
- - -

How does Darwin explain the Horseshow Crab, which has not changed since prehistoric times (and has super cool blue blood).

Actually, I'm a big Darwin fan.  that just popped into my head.

1) agreed. The solution lies in better education and tighter restrictions on lenders.

2)No. There is no such attempt to annoy you. Humor you, provoke you to hear your side, or plain conversation. Solution: don't assume.

3)Totally agree....indexes serve as markings in time. Just reprinting a story.

4)I supported these tax cuts. But something must be done to end entitlements and change to tax in a different manner. Perhaps, based on consumption.

5)OK....except I see growth slowing to below %3 in 08 and I see inflation going up %2.5. Flat market.

Anyway you want to look at it, Bush may have made the average citizens of this country better off but he has not set them up for a brighter economic future.

And horseshoe crabs, cowboys only get....

[RecycleMichael]

I believe Darwin was adopted.

[Conan71]

Used to be that lenders would not allow more than 30% of your NDI to be committed to a house payment and I can't remember what the total indebtedness level was as percent of net income, but I do recall having to pay off the remaining balance on a relatively small loan before they would write the mortgage on a house I bought in 1993, because there was absolutely zero tolerance on their percentages at the time.  I was something like 5% over what they would allow at the time.

The failure in the housing and mortgage market has very, very little to do with the state of the economy.  Greedy banks enticed foolish borrowers to up their lifestyle with all sorts of creative lending vehicles which made no sense:

Zero down, iffy credit, interest-only, baloons, etc.

This is destined to repeat itself in about 20 years.  That seems to be the cycle for stupid lending practices.  The gov't will clamp down for about 10 years, then restrictions will loosen, and banks will post record earnings, then come crashing down again.  

One of the dumbest and most blatant hand-outs to lending during the Bush years was bankruptcy reform.  Stupid credit card companies lend money to people who have no business borrowing it in the first place then run to the gov't to fix it for them so they can shore up profits with their usurious rates.  No, I don't carry a personal credit card- total rip-off.

[FOTD]

mileage cards here....

you're not one of those women that hold up the check out stands writing out a check and taking forever are you?

[cannon_fodder]

Thank you for your clear response FOTD.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

mileage cards here....

you're not one of those women that hold up the check out stands writing out a check and taking forever are you?

Yeah, I also usually have a 1" stack of coupons and complain about being charged .89 cents for a can of Green Giant peas that were clearly marked .88 on the shelf tag.  I usually leave my ID in the truck just so I can piss everyone else off for a few minutes while I run out to retrieve it.  If I haven't held everyone up in the check out line for at least 15 minutes I'm not happy.

[FOTD]

Former Treasury secretary Lawrence H. Summers says Bush and the Federal Reserve aren't taking aggressive enough action to prevent a recession; Bush doesn't even know the economy is bad, if it doesn't happen to him, he doesn't know it. 12/21
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902177.html

An op ed piece I read....

[we vs us]

Hi there! Long time lurker, first time poster.

Can I just say that the phrase "personal responsibility" is soooo 2002?  It might have had some resonance, some compelling meaning back early in Bush's first term, but at this point it just comes off as code for "screw you, Jack, I've got mine."  Which, I'm sure we can agree, is the perfect center plank for any mainstream political movement.

I'm not sure how, after 7 years of such stupendous corruption and outright domestic policy failure, you guys can name-check it with a straight face.  Right now, "personal responsibility" has a hundred retorts, things like "Enron," or "Katrina," or "Schiavo," or "Abramoff," or "Foley," et al.  It's like the personal responsibility turkey shoot.  Dying a thousand deaths at the hands of "personal greed," "personal gratification," and "personal political expediency."

You guys need a new slogan.  This one is totally stale.  

How bout, "I'm loving it!"

[cannon_fodder]

First, welcome We vs Us.  Glad you have decided to hop into the show!  I have decided to call you "WeVus" for just to make things easier. []

Welcomes out of the way...

I do not see why personal responsibility should be a thing of the past.  Why should I bale out someone who over spends?  I have done a lot of bankruptcy work and can tell you the VAST majority of filers are there by virtue of living a lifestyle they truly could not afford.  I witnessed many single people with $60,000 incomes filing because they lived in a $250,000 house, drove a BMW, and had a lavish speed boat.

Why should I not demand personal responsibility of them as well as the family making $50,000 a year that think they need a used Tahoe instead of a used Taurus?

There are a slim number of people who simply have a bum hand.  They are physically unable, mental problems, divorce caused credit issues, or a failed business has forced their hand.  For them bankruptcy laws exist.  But by and large, the majority of people in financial trouble in this country are there because they tried to keep up with the Joneses.

and yes, that includes Mr. and Mrs. I want a $300,000 house so I'll take a fly-by-night loan to get it.
- - -

While I'm rolling out the welcome wagon... what does Schiavo have to do with this?  Or the people that lived below sea level without flood insurance?  Or, for that matter, the small gathering of thieves you mentioned (an example of over spenders at a high level)?  Are these people victims in your scenario or examples... I'm just lost I guess.

/sry to jump on you your first post.  If you've been lurking you will not take offense, I'm a jerk.  []

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Former Treasury secretary Lawrence H. Summers says Bush and the Federal Reserve aren't taking aggressive enough action to prevent a recession; Bush doesn't even know the economy is bad, if it doesn't happen to him, he doesn't know it. 12/21
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902177.html

An op ed piece I read....

Summers is a pretty well respected economist, but reading all his comments in the story, not even he is saying for certain the admins actions aren't good enough.

"Summers, a Harvard economics professor and former president of the university, said the president and Congress should use fiscal policy -- the government's taxing and spending abilities -- to help goose the economy in 2008. The best way to do that, he said, would be to temporarily lower taxes equally among taxpayers, extend unemployment insurance and increase food-stamp benefits. He stressed that such tax cuts and spending increases should be temporary, so as not to increase long-term budget deficits.

Later, in a conversation with editors and reporters of The Washington Post, he argued that even if he turns out to be wrong about the fate of the economy, it would be better for the government to respond with vigor. "

What's that? A leading economist and former secretary of the treasury agrees that tax cuts stimulate the economy.  He's a Clintonite, no less.

WVU- personal accountability and responsibility never goes out of style.  People are given plenty of warning and information in writing about the loans they are signing.  Consumer credit reforms of the '70's and '80's ensured that.  If they aren't getting proper disclosure then there should be an investigation for fraud.

[RecycleMichael]

Welcome wevus...

One of my favorite political quotes came from Hubert H Humphrey. He would have been president except that he was too ugly to make it in a time when television was changing politics.

When asked what the role of government should be...his answer...

"The role of government should be to take care of those in the dawn of life, the young; those in the dusk of life, the elderly; and those in the shadows of life, the disadvantaged".

I think part of his point was that the rest of us can take care of ourselves.