It's The Economy, STUPID!.....

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Wevus wrotein the end it defends the status quo, which is increasing inequality. . . . As Americans we also believe in certain equalities, and equality of opportunity would seem to be one of them. Trickle-down economics accepts and encourages exactly the opposite behavior.
. . .
What I am suggesting is that we get back to emphasizing equality of opportunity again, and not assuming that a caste system is the perfect way to structure our country. In my mind the American Dream is to aspire to more wealth by hard work, but our country's increasing inequality shows that aspiring to more is becoming harder and harder.

1. This same argument was made during the industrial revolution.  IN the antebellum South. Again during WWI.  Again during the great depression.  Again in the 1960's.  And is being raised yet again (for some reason the HUGE disparity during the dot com boom was exempt, which made many m/billionaires but took no one but educated techies and venture capitalists along for the ride).  

One would think over the last ~300 years of the rich getting richer and the poor poorer the system would have crashed by now.  Instead, the poor keep getting wealthier too.  Zoom in on the possessions of American "poor" that most of the world dreams of.

And in fact, of the 100 Richest Americans of all time, only 9 are currently living.  In a country that is only 225 years old, that is a REALLY small percentage.  That would seem to indicate that wealth is indeed NOT being accumulated by a smaller group of people.
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2006/07/29/the-wealthy-100-a-ranking-of-the-richest-americans-past-and-present/

2.  How does Bill Gates having $70 Bil somehow deny me opportunity?  Or Warren Buffet?  Or Mark Cuban?  

Most of America's rich are self made men.  Instead of complaining about the few 2nd generation or even fewer 3rd generation rich, why not ponder the majority who have climbed their way to the top.  The notion that the landed gentry of America perpetuate their wealth is pure fiction.  Most on Forbes 400 list come from relatively modest origins.

3. Who is denying you opportunity?

Have John Astor's relatives kept you from opening a fur trading post?  Rockefellers been keeping your railroads down?  Have the Skellys been strong arming your local oil business?

I simply fail to see any correlation between someone else's wealth and my chance to acquire my own.  Nothing you have posted indicates how this manifests itself.  If you are concerned that all of the good angles or ideas are taken, wake up to all the new millionaires each year.  Tell those guys from Google that the dot com bubble burst a decade ago.

4. America's dream has never been to aspire to wealth by hard work, it has been to have the chance to aspire to more wealth - by any means.  There is no promise that your hard work will pay off, and often it does not.  Even working smarter is no guarantee of success.  But certainly, you are free to work as you please to earn your place in our fluid (read: non-caste) system.

But the fact remains, in the United States more than any where else in the world each person is free to chose a path and pursue it to either amazing success or radical failure.  There is no caste system that told many normal guys that they could not pursue their idea to amazing riches.  

America has more class mobility than anywhere else on Earth. Institutionalizing the system (a la Europe) is much more likely to enshrine the status quo than allowing each to make his own lot.  If a Caste system exists in the United States, it is a socially created one (in general Asians emphasize education much more than Hispanics and are therefor more likely to get wealthy.  Some inner city blacks "sell out" in the eyes of some peers if they strive for education or hard work... etc.).

- - -

Circles of wealth exist and are allowed to perpetuate themselves.  But such examples are the exception, not the norm.  Rarely does wealth , even extreme wealth survive past the 3rd generation.  In the instances that it does it is because the wealth provided an opportunity that some member of the family (usually the founder) utilized to set the discipline in place to sustain it (limited trusts instead of overt wealth transfers) OR a member of the family used the wealth for further business ventures (read: actually worked).

But usually, next generations take it for granted and show little interest in utilizing their wealth.  They piss it away and leave their children further down the ladder.  And so it goes until the most of the names on the 100 all time list no longer carry a status with them.

For example:  where do you think the amazingly vast Hilton fortune will be in another generation?  Gone unless someone smarter than Paris set up a locked trust.  And even then... her wealth will create opportunities for you to exploit it, instead of preventing you from achieving your own.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by we vs us


Snip.

Snip

I appreciate you holding back on the personal attacks.  I'm not sure where we'd be if you hadn't.  

I'm not particularly young, and I have run a small business of my own.  I have dealt with taxes and business regulation, and have relied on my own hard work to advance my interests.  Go figure.  Welcome to capitalism. I really do wish you'd quit trying to say that, because I wish our system was better, I'm a communist.  There aren't just two ways to do things in the world. It's not just you and the Commies and that's it.  

What I believe in is a fair shake for everyone.  I used the term "caste" hyperbolically, but for rhetorical purposes.  I think that social mobility is in some serious danger right now in our history which is why I make a stink about it.  Economic inequality is a main indicator of a declining situation. And that isn't rhetoric.  That's a solid measurement.

I also believe that social mobility is a hallmark of our system and makes our country great. I think we should encourage more of it. You seem to think everything is fine and dandy exactly the way it is, and that's perplexing.  I suspect you're doing it for ideological reasons, but I'm not sure.  Think of it this way: if your business is stagnating, wouldn't you take steps to change things to improve it?  That's the beauty of capitalism, it inspires innovation and progress. I think we need to improve our brand.  

Suggestions include better education across the board.  Expand access and financial aid for college degrees, emphasis on science and engineering, more job training and even life training (how to balance a checkbook, how to manage time, how to put together a resume, how to apply for a job) for the poor.

Universal healthcare is a big one as well.  At this point healthcare functions as a regressive tax on both individuals and corporations alike.  The government has the power to fix this.  But that's another thread entirely.

[cannon_fodder]

But my question was how and why?

Why do you think it is in danger in spite of having more mobility than anywhere else in the world (see previous post)?

And what do you propose we do?  There are already minority scholarships, need scholarships, government loan, and even free tuition in Tulsa County for TCC.  If someone wants to go to college, they certainly can.

Basically:

What is holding people back?

[NativeTulsans]

"Hmmm. . . almost no unemployment. . . productivity at an all time high. . . Stock market booming. . . wages up. . . GNP up. . . liberals pi$$y about everything. . . Yup! I'm better off.

Can't complain!"

I loved that post.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by NativeTulsans


"Hmmm. . . almost no unemployment. . . productivity at an all time high. . . Stock market booming. . . wages up. . . GNP up. . . liberals pi$$y about everything. . . Yup! I'm better off.

Can't complain!"

I loved that post.

Well it's true!  

Some folks have nothing better to do than complain.  

They use "university level" economics that simply do not translate to the real world.  

If you give them a brick of gold they will complain that it's too heavy!

If you give them prosperity, job security, and luxury, they will find pain and suffering everywhere.  They simply confuse cause with purpose.  Little birds crashing into a window pane over and over again.

They are absolutely necessary though, because without them, we would have no one to entertain us.

Send in the clowns!

[FOTD]

I only complain when I witness the hardships of others. Yes, I feel their pain. Guess that's why I am a democrat (less and less). We believe in giving a hand up and not a hand out as the righties would want you to believe about us....

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

I only complain when I witness the hardships of others. Yes, I feel their pain. Guess that's why I am a democrat (less and less). We believe in giving a hand up and not a hand out as the righties would want you to believe about us....

I truly believe you mean very well, and I admire your willingness to debate and discuss the issues you feel strongly about.  Most liberals simply scream, shout and become belligerent when challenged.

But know this, there will always be hardship, pain and suffering, in every society at every level.

As a Democrat, If you feel your calling is to help these people than I admire you even more.  You are lucky enough to live in a country that shows great admiration to those willing to make sacrifices, in their own personal lives, to better the lives of those less fortunate or ambitious.

When you make your sacrifices to better the lives of others, please don't use my wallet.  As you offer a hand up, please make sure it is your hand that is offered.

I have admiration for those who work hard, I have compassion for those in need.  I have no pity for beggars. I see opportunity all around pounding on doors and cardboard boxes alike.

[cannon_fodder]

At the risk of descending this thread into total chaos -

That hand up usually seems to involve taking money from some "rightie" and giving it to someone else.  Pretty sure welfare, section 8, title 19, food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, travel vouchers, non-earned income tax credits, and other items are just handouts.  If I am not mistaken, none of those things have any provisions that they are to be used to give people a "hand up" and often become addictions and a hereditary way of life.

I'm right there with you wanting to help people get on their feet and generate wealth.  Not so much with you on the desire to help others even if they have burned all their chances and want to just milk the system - as I believe happens way too often.  NOTE:  that doesn't mean kill the programs entirely, but when a government crutch becomes a societal norm something needs to change or that portion of society will forever remain needing a "hand up."

[FOTD]

1-20-09 can't come soon enough....

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
December 16, 2003

Remarks by the President at Signing of the American Dream Downpayment Act - Washington, D.C.

THE PRESIDENT:...One of the biggest hurdles to homeownership is getting money for a down payment. This administration has recognized that, and so today I'm honored to be here to sign a law that will help many low-income buyers to overcome that hurdle, and to achieve an important part of the American Dream.

I want to thank the representatives of the consumer and housing groups that worked hard on this piece of legislation. I want to thank leaders of the national community organizations that are with us, and members of the real estate industry.

This administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country. And this is a good time for the American homeowner. Today we received a report that showed that new home construction last month reached its highest level in nearly 20 years. (Applause.)

Many people are able to afford a monthly mortgage payment, but are unable to make the down payment. So this legislation will authorize $200 million per year in down payment assistance to at least 40,000 low-income families. These funds will help American families achieve their goals, and at the same time, strengthen our communities.

And there's more to do, as well. We'll continue to pursue a broad agenda to help people own a home. There are three steps I want to describe to you right quickly about what we intend to do. First, those who apply for mortgages should be made aware of all the costs and warned about predatory lenders who take advantage of inexperienced buyers. So we've doubled the funds for housing counseling services, including those run by faith-based and community groups.

We understand that buying a home for the first time is complicated, and we want to simplify the process. We want to help people understand the pros and cons of buying a home. We want people to be fully aware of what it means to buy a home and what it takes. And we want people as best protected as possible from those shysters who would take advantage of first-time buyers. (Applause.)

Second, we need to make the home-buying process more affordable. Some of the biggest up-front costs in a home purchase are the closing costs. Sometimes they catch you by surprise. (Laughter.) Many home buyers do not have the time to shop around looking for a better deal on closing costs. You're kind of stuck with what you're presented with. And so they end up paying more than they should. So we've proposed new rules to make it easier for buyers to shop around and to compare prices on closing costs, so they can get the best deal and the best service possible.

And thirdly, we want to make buying a home simpler. Many first-time buyers look at the paperwork from a loan application, and frankly, get a little nervous about all the fine print. Those forms can be intimidating to the first-time home buyer. They can be intimidating to the second or third-time home buyer, too.

And so now it my honor, right here at this important Department, the Department responsible for encouraging homeownership in America, to sign the American Dream Downpayment Act. (Applause.)

(The bill is signed.) (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/...

- the federal seeds of the bubble that gave the moral and financial backing to re, mortg, and wall st securitizing machine. all those short term profits and housing #s sure looked good for a while, and some subprime folks got to rent a nice place, but as we all know now there is hell to pay.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by NativeTulsans


"Hmmm. . . almost no unemployment. . . productivity at an all time high. . . Stock market booming. . . wages up. . . GNP up. . . liberals pi$$y about everything. . . Yup! I'm better off.

Can't complain!"

I loved that post.

Ah, the New Gilded Age!  Things couldn't be duckier.

From the conclusions:

"Assistance Programs Reduce Poverty and Hardship, But Serious Gaps Remain

Federal and state programs help many struggling families meet basic needs.  Nutrition programs like food stamps, for example, have made severe hunger and malnutrition rare in this country.  Medicaid and SCHIP provide more than 50 million Americans with health coverage.  Social Security and Supplemental Security Income reduce poverty for millions of seniors, people with disabilities, and surviving children and spouses.  But for many reasons, serious gaps remain.

Many households do not qualify.  Most non-elderly adults who lack access to affordable health care through their employer do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP.  In most states, adults without children do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP no matter how low their income is, unless they are elderly or have a serious disability.  And for parents, the income limit for Medicaid coverage in the typical state is only 65 percent of the poverty line, or about $11,000 for a family of three.

Some people are eligible for programs but do not participate.  Applying or remaining enrolled in a program may be too difficult, or an individual might not even know about the program.  Roughly 6 million low-income uninsured children meet their states' eligibility criteria for Medicaid or SCHIP.

Some programs provide inadequate benefits.  The Food Stamp Program, for example, provides an average benefit of only about $1 per person per meal — not enough help for struggling families.  Over the past decade, food stamps have failed to keep pace with the rising cost of living.

Programs that can improve employment and earnings receive inadequate funding.  Quality child care and early education programs can improve children's learning potential but a large share of low-income infants, toddlers, and preschoolers do not have access to them because of funding limitations.

•  In 2008, for example, 350,000 fewer children will receive federal child care assistance than in 2002.[xi]  Also, Head Start funding for 2008 will fall 11 percent below the 2002 level, adjusted for inflation.  For 2008, Congress reduced its intended funding for both child care and Head Start (as well as other programs) to help meet the President's overall funding level for domestic discretionary programs."

[we vs us]

More:

36.5 million Americans — roughly one in eight — live in poverty.[ii]  Despite relatively strong economic growth since 2001, poverty has remained stubbornly high, and today's poverty rate is higher than it was during the last recession.  That the poverty rate is still above its recession level is especially distressing given that poverty usually declines during recoveries and rises during recessions.  If the economy goes into a slowdown or recession in 2008, poverty likely will only increase further.

15.4 million Americans live in extreme poverty.  In other words, their family's cash income is less than half of the poverty line, or less than about $10,000 a year for a family of four.

The article has some other numbers relating to food, shelter, and medical care.  It's worth your minute and a half.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

More:

36.5 million Americans — roughly one in eight — live in poverty.[ii]  Despite relatively strong economic growth since 2001, poverty has remained stubbornly high, and today's poverty rate is higher than it was during the last recession.  That the poverty rate is still above its recession level is especially distressing given that poverty usually declines during recoveries and rises during recessions.  If the economy goes into a slowdown or recession in 2008, poverty likely will only increase further.

15.4 million Americans live in extreme poverty.  In other words, their family's cash income is less than half of the poverty line, or less than about $10,000 a year for a family of four.

The article has some other numbers relating to food, shelter, and medical care.  It's worth your minute and a half.

I am all for helping out the less fortunate.  I grew up in a typical middle class family, graduated from Jenks High School, had all bills, rent, etc paid for me throughout my college career, etc etc.  

After graduating college and finding a job I decided to volunteer in the Jenks Chapter of Meals on Wheels.  I did this for about 2 yrs until some other things came up in my life that caused me to stop helping unfortunately.
I didnt do it because I had to, I did it because I wanted to.  It made me feel good helping others who needed some assistance and it was refreshing to see and talk to these people once a week, sometimes two for a few minutes.  I also pick out several ADULTS each year for the Salvation Army Angel Tree.  Something about seeing 50 yr old men and women asking for the necessities turns me into a "softy", per se.  So I have no problem helping out the less fortunate but a few bad apples spoils it for everyone else.  Some of these people dont work, have 5 kids and "live off the system".  So their kids will grow up in horrible conditions because their parents are too selfish and stubborn to think about anyone but themselves.  Some of these people have no work ethic, and couldnt care less whether they were employed are not. It is these types of people I really dont feel too bad for. The ones that make no effort to improve their lives even though "WE" tried to give them a lifeline, they failed to capitalize on the situation.  Anyways, I could go on for awhile longer, but will leave it at that for now.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

But my question was how and why?

Why do you think it is in danger in spite of having more mobility than anywhere else in the world (see previous post)?

And what do you propose we do?  There are already minority scholarships, need scholarships, government loan, and even free tuition in Tulsa County for TCC.  If someone wants to go to college, they certainly can.

Basically:

What is holding people back?

We're actually NOT the most mobile society in the world. As a matter of fact, using one measure called the Gini coefficient, we are completely average in terms of social and economic mobility, ranking on par with Iran, Turkey, and China (this graphic cribbed from wikipedia).

So, no, I don't believe we're the USA of old, or at least the one that you and Spoonbill an NativeTulsans are harkening back to.  There's plenty of data out there that says we're in serious trouble and have been for awhile now. I absolutely believe we can be the best country in the world, but self-congratulatory BS is what, IMO, got us here in the first place.  We're guilty of not taking an honest and hard look at ourselves, and coasting on our (rapidly dwindling) reputation.

I can suggest solutions, but until there's a willingness to shift our priorities from Mid-East adventurism and wars of choice to domestic improvement, we're stuck with our slow decline.  

Spoonbill:  your wallet is already getting a workout, what with Iraq's nearly $500 billion cost to date.  You're gonna be paying and paying and paying, for years to come, and so am I.  I was hoping you'd have the same indignation towards our poorly executed war that you have for your less-well-off countrymen, but I'm not holding my breath.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us
I can suggest solutions, but until there's a willingness to shift our priorities from Mid-East adventurism and wars of choice to domestic improvement, we're stuck with our slow decline.

Wevus...you are my favorite new poster and someone who I agree with most of the time.

I love the phrase "Mid-East adventurism"...

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:Originally posted by we vs us
I can suggest solutions, but until there's a willingness to shift our priorities from Mid-East adventurism and wars of choice to domestic improvement, we're stuck with our slow decline.

Wevus...you are my favorite new poster and someone who I agree with most of the time.

I love the phrase "Mid-East adventurism"...

Well, geez, thanks! [8D] I get kinda fired up every once in awhile, but I hope everyone knows it's all in fun.