Should a baseball park be public?

[FOTD]

The Brady district is best suited for a regional draw..... with the least amount of investment by the government and the Brady already has two anchors. A Race Riot Museum could herald the age of tolerance while serving as a third anchor...next year look for the addition of the Mathews project. Get rid of the industrial uses and you're almost there....

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by David Arnett

Hope I did not offend you with the grouping WB – heck MB and I were once friends – which goes to prove the old adage, “there are no permanent friends or permanent enemies in politics.”

Back to the subject of a baseball park – OKC built an identity downtown when there was none.  They were in far worse shape than Tulsa’s downtown is now before they began and that, I suspect, was an advantage as they solicited public support.  The entertainment and sports venues work together with residential housing and, in this case, residential followed public investment in OKC venues.

To accomplish a vibrant downtown, residential heartbeats are necessary.  Most, if not all cities, promote convention and large venue entertainment for their downtowns because it brings people into the core when the regular customers (downtown office workers) are not there and the infrastructure is underused.  This also supports weekend retail in downtown.

During the last Tulsa Tough rally, visiting racers were impressed with how attractive, fun and clean downtown Tulsa seemed to them.  Tulsans sometimes miss the quality of what exists now (Brady, Blue Dome, etc).  Currently developers are building more residences – some funded in part by Vision 2025 – and there is “buzz” about more development from the city’s effort in marketing available city owned land.  Within a large “master development” in the northeastern quadrant of the core there might be room for a stadium (baseball, soccer, football or a combination) as an anchor entertainment draw. An anchor feature or facility is critical just as an anchor tenant is to a shopping center.  Maybe a stadium is not the best destination attraction for downtown Tulsa which is a long way around to say, I may be on board with an enclosed track.  Or is there some other thing that would be better?  What do we want downtown's identity to be – not for just one segment of the community, but as a regional draw?

None taken. I will repeat though, that OKC's experiment in downtown building was greatly aided by the Murrah memorial and its national draw. Suddenly, a rubber wheeled trolley was feasible. Horse drawn carts and a blue tinted open drain pipe with barges was...feasible. I am not too sure that without that unfortunate tragedy that the downtown redevelopment would have gained success so quickly.

And keep in mind that they are not inundated with revenue sapping casinos that surround Tulsa. There will undoubtedly be a push to locate another casino within the downtown Tulsa area.

My mantra? "We aren't like OKC, don't look to their development as a format for ours" Or any other non-similar city for that matter.

[Renaissance]

The empty blocks of the east side of downtown are not going to fill themselves in our lifetime without a comprehensive plan and government subsidy.  

Every single city that has built a baseball stadium downtown has seen successful development associated with that stadium.  Tulsa is not so unique that that success could not be replicated here.

Need, meet opportunity.  Development on the east side of downtown needs a spur.  The Drillers are looking for a new home.  

2 + 2 = . . . the Drillers moving to the suburbs?  Only in Tulsa County.

[TheArtist]

My main concern is about that east end area being a quality walkable district. Doing it right can make us heads and shoulders above other cities, and it doesnt have to be hard or expensive to do. I want and hope for Tulsas downtown to be of superior quality. And that can indeed include a baseball stadium. But what KIND of baseball stadium is more important to me. Those renderings I showed of the kind of designs I liked were for stadium that were around the size 7-11 thousand people, and price range 30 mill that we are talking about for our downtown. We are a small city and that huge Petco stadium or Denver stadium arent exactly in the same types of areas and realm we are talking about for Tulsas downtown.

A lot of people have been pushing real hard for that area of our downtown to have a specific quality to it. A baseball stadium there, depending purely on its design, can be a stunning start down that road, or it can stand in the way of that direction and impede it. Though it may spur growth and "improve" the area. I, and a lot of other people, just dont want any old growth for growths sake. Especially when with just a bit of extra effort something really wonderful and above average can happen there. You may think OKC or those other cities you mention have good things going... but, let me tell you, there are some really clever people in this town who have looked long and hard at how to do things, who have some great ideas. And if we dare to listen to them and what they have learned, we can create something better than what you can envision because you may just have not had that exposure and experience.

I try explain how we can do something great, people show me examples of things that dont fit or arent nearly as nice as what I am trying to get at. We can pretty much be first and one of a kind. We can be what OTHERS point to as a good example and even regret that they didnt do. And in comparison, those places you once thought were great, will seem as pitiful as how I see them compared to what I can see that we CAN really do.  

I believe one of those small stadiums that I showed they said it could be done for about 30 mill, INCLUDING the buildings and shops that wrapped around it. Actually the article I read said just over 20 mill.

These are all around the price and size range we would likely be talking about for Tulsa. Some, imo, are more superior than others. But you can get an idea of whats possible and what a baseball park with buldings wrapped around or incorporated into it can look like.  

 












This last one is my least favorite. But even here, with a bit of tweaking to make a more dramatic and enjoyable front entrance and having nice looking 2 or even 3 story shops around it, it could be quite nice.


Here is a little video I found that has some info about "public spaces" in general. First few minutes are a bit dry but there are some good points in it.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ

[FOTD]

Architects and their crayons! Great imagination!
Looks like Jenks Riverwalk South...payolla and make it happen. More like $100,000,000 to bribe enough users....no doubt the church will need donations too.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Architects and their crayons! Great imagination!
Looks like Jenks Riverwalk South...payolla and make it happen. More like $100,000,000 to bribe enough users....no doubt the church will need donations too.

I was just trying to point attention to the baseball stadium and the buildings that are part of it.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

The empty blocks of the east side of downtown are not going to fill themselves in our lifetime without a comprehensive plan and government subsidy.  

Every single city that has built a baseball stadium downtown has seen successful development associated with that stadium.  Tulsa is not so unique that that success could not be replicated here.

Need, meet opportunity.  Development on the east side of downtown needs a spur.  The Drillers are looking for a new home.  

2 + 2 = . . . the Drillers moving to the suburbs?  Only in Tulsa County.

I understand the need for a jolt in that part of downtown. It's like the old joke about the guy propositioning a woman who when offered $20 for the deed, responds "What kind of woman do you think I am??" We're past that stage honey, we're negotiating price now.

My only concern is that Tulsa only gets a cut of concessions which may or may not even cover our cost. The response is that there are many other synergistic type benefits from the location downtown. My feeling is that those should be quantified and proved in some way. Otherwise the Drillers are simply playing both sides and we are part of a sales game. We're so afraid we might lose them that we could make an offer that can't be justified. Lately it appears that voters seem wary of poorly justified public programs. Just sayin'.

Jenks is a gamble for the Drillers. We're just finishing an Arena that will draw from all over and spark the downtown area. The Drillers may see that as benefit don't you think?

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Despite my joking on the subject at hand, for I really dont either like or dislike baseball, its a neutral topic for me, my thoughts are this...  If the Drillers can get a stadium in Jenks and Tulsa tax payers arent paying for it, great. I dont think that the expense it would take for us to pay for one would be worth it all by itself.

If they get a better crowd in the Jenks area, and I think they will, that will be good for them and all of Tulsa. It will still be the Tulsa Drillers, they will get great crowds, lots of new life, a fresh start and be a bigger presence as part of something like that development in a high profile, lively new area.  

As for a baseball stadium downtown, my fear is that a baseball stadium all by itself will not do much for downtown. I dont see it doing all that much for where its at now to be frank. If it were part of a larger development then it could be a definite plus, for the development and the stadium would have enough synergy, buzz, and energy to become an actual draw. But again, a baseball stadium all by itself downtown would probably get less attendance and do less well than it would in Jenks. It would be a bit selfish to want it there in that instance.

 If the baseball stadium were part of a larger development in Tulsa along the river, or in downtown then I could see using some sort of tif or public funding mechanism to help things along. No reason to not at least do what Jenks is doing if we had the opportunity. A new baseball stadium by itself... no way.

 Its not as though they are really leaving. I would rather have them be more successful right across the river and take that 30 mill or whatever it is and do something else. That way you have both. Or buy up that cement property and get the 500 mill Tulsa Landing thing plus the baseball stadium there.  That I would support. What was that property 60 mill?  Lets see 30 mill for a baseball stadium by itself downtown... or... 60 mill for a baseball stadium AND 500 mill worth of development along the river. I know what I would pick.

That development in Jenks actually presents the "powers that be" in Tulsa with a real opportunity to get something done in Tulsa. If the people of Jenks can pass a 290 million dollar tif for a 1billion dollar development along its river. Anyone who argued against a 60-90mill tif in Tulsa to get a 500 mill development along its river would appear absolutely pitiful.

I agree with everything you said above.  Like I have stated before, its not like they are moving to Bentonville or Bartlesville.  They would be moving 12 miles south.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

The empty blocks of the east side of downtown are not going to fill themselves in our lifetime without a comprehensive plan and government subsidy.  

Every single city that has built a baseball stadium downtown has seen successful development associated with that stadium.  Tulsa is not so unique that that success could not be replicated here.

Need, meet opportunity.  Development on the east side of downtown needs a spur.  The Drillers are looking for a new home.  

2 + 2 = . . . the Drillers moving to the suburbs?  Only in Tulsa County.

Jenks seems to have the opportunity/ability to develop a stadium with private dollars, so why can't Tulsa?  If there is no developer willing to make the commitment/risk, then that should tell the rest of us taxpayers that maybe this isn't a sure thing, thus we should not be risking taxpayer dollars.  And government should not be funding entertainment.  That is the job of private industry.

And what happens when the Drillers leave Tulsa?  Taxpayers are stuck with a baseball stadium with no one playing in it.  Look around at the league Tulsa plays in and see how many teams have moved.  There is nothing that holds these minor teams to a city except the prospect to earn money.  I'm confident, if the Drillers got a better deal someplace far away from Tulsa, they would move in a heart beat.  Fan loyalty doesn't pay the bills.  The government shouldn't either.