Think Lawyers will Change...

[guido911]

There have been several recent threads in this forum on the misconduct of police officers, with some very negative comments coming from lawyers. Thought the below story would give lawyers pause and think about the conduct of their own before they pick on other professions...

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/12/anti-military-l.html

[cannon_fodder]

Yep, the guy is a jackass. Keyed a marines car and then maneuvered to avoid criminal charges for it.

But he was not doing so under the color of law.  My problem is not that police misbehave, it is that they do so under the color of law.  

quote:By account of the Illinois State's Attorneys, Grodner is likely to get away with defacing Mike's car with no penalty because, 1) Mike is about to deploy to Iraq and will not be available to appear in court, and 2) Grodner is a lawyer and can get out of this very easily.

Whoa!  Is there a special lawyer gets away with it card that I was not issued?  He might be able to maneuver himself out of it (delay until witness is gone), but anyone willing to hire a lawyer could do that.  It would be like saying a body mechanic gets away with running into a tree because he fixes his own car.

I'm sorry some idiot keyed a car, ANYONES car.  Sorrier still that it happened to a Marine about to deploy (actually just took a friend to the airport to go back to base in San Diego).  And what's more, it is unfortunate that he shares my profession.

HOWEVER, incidents of idiots keying cars are rarely, if ever, prosecuted as a felony.  The proper course of action would be to drag this guy threw the mud with a civil suit for the damages AS WELL as keeping the pressure on the DA to at least charge him (statute of limitations probably tolls for deployment or other state law deployment provisions) .  Like nearly everyone else he will probably just get a misdemeanor charge (vandalism has to be pretty extreme to waste resources on a felony prosecution).  His real punishment will be to his name and hopefully to his business.

A better example for you to use would have been the Duke lacrosse prosecutor - actually abusing ones post under authority.  But in any event, I loathe the fact that people who share by profession abuse their education and community standing in many ways.  Please note that I am not excusing this or other attorney's behavior simply because they have a tough job, work long hours, and are often under appreciated (no lawyers = no liberty, justice, property rights...).

And for the record, many of us are underpaid considering our 7-8 years of college []

[Wilbur]

99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.  []

[cannon_fodder]

But us 1% are so damn lovable, I think we redeem the profession. [^]

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

But us 1% are so damn lovable, I think we redeem the profession. [^]

Yeah, what CF said. I guess that leaves IP and Conan as the rest comprising that 1%

[patric]

I dont know if this thread says more about a lawyer acting like a child or a cop acting like a child.

[guido911]

Here is an update:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1946463/posts

[cannon_fodder]

So he did get prosecuted in court and the Marine got a quick hearing so he could give his statement and deploy. Basically, he got everything he wanted.  

The attorney sought a continuance, standard practice.  The case was not dismissed and the "I'm an attorney so I get out of it easily" card was apparently not played.

So a citizen broke the law and due process is rolling to punish him.  I guess I fail to see what the difference between this attorney or any other jackass keying a car?

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder


So a citizen broke the law and due process is rolling to punish him.  I guess I fail to see what the difference between this attorney or any other jackass keying a car?

Are you kidding me? You chastized me on another thread on 12/13/07 as follows:

Guido, you are clearly not getting the point....
If nothing else, answer one question for me:

Is expecting officers to follow the law an unreasonable expectation?...

I guess "f nothing else, answer one question for me: Is expecting attorneys to follow the law an unreasonable expectation?"

Apparently not, since according to you attorneys are just like every other jackass keying a car.


 

[cannon_fodder]

Again Guido, you are not getting the point.  Though you never answered my question directly, I will happily engage yours.  

quote:Is expecting attorneys to follow the law an unreasonable expectation?

No, I fully expect attorneys to follow the law at all times and preferably err on the side of compliance if ever in doubt.  Never is it acceptable for an attorney to use their education, profession, or knowledge to help them commit any crime or break any law.

What's more, I fully expect them to comply with all other laws just as any ordinary citizen should.  While it is particularly important that they not abuse their position, that detracts nothing from the fact that they are expected to behave like any law abiding citizen.  If an attorney speeds, runs red lights, assaults a person, or keys someones car I fully expect them to face the same retribution any other person would face.

Clear enough for you?

Now substitute the word "police officer."  Can you state the same thing?  Because you wouldn't before.  Interesting that the police are not expected to follow the law and are entitled to abuse their positions in your world, but attorneys are not.  I hold both to a high standard and while recognizing that most abide by those standards wish those that do not just punishment under the law.

What's more, THE ATTORNEY IN THIS INSTANCE WAS NOT ACTING IN ANY CAPACITY AS AN ATTORNEY. His act is as pitiful for an attorney as it is for anyone else.  he acted under no color of law and hid behind no covert authority in his actions.  And, justifiably so, was punished like any other jackass.  But that same attorney can go to work the next day and not be a hypocrite (unlike an officer who breaks the law and then punishes others for doing the same).  This act would have the same significance if it was committed by a plumber, a welder, an accountant, or a senator - it's someone being a jackass.  Him being an attorney is only relevant in-so-much as the article makes him out to be a notable member of society.

If, honestly, you do not understand the difference between acting hypocritically in an official capacity (or similar abuse of power) and someone who happens to be a member of a profession acting like a jackass, let me know and I will try to explain it to you.  If, on the other hand, you simply harbor a grudge because I think the police should be expect to follow the laws - let me know and I'll move on.

[rwarn17588]

Cannonfodder shoots, he scores!

[Conan71]

The attorney being the one to personally file the continuances, or otherwise string it out long enough to render a witness useless isn't any different than the priveledge of hiring someone else to do it for him like so many non-attornies do every day.

I really don't see the point as to how he's abused a position or power in this instance.  

Paying for lap dances out of his client trust account?  That's more like it if that's what the journalist was reaching for.

Not spearing you Guido, I just don't see that some attorney being an immature pr!ck was even noteworthy for the news wires.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71



Not spearing you Guido, I just don't see that some attorney being an immature pr!ck was even noteworthy for the news wires.

Come on Conan, it was news-worthy because this lawyer's attack was not only against a soldier but that the lawyer plainly tried to avoid criminal liability because of his victim's deployment.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Again Guido, you are not getting the point.  Though you never answered my question directly, I will happily engage yours.  

quote:Is expecting attorneys to follow the law an unreasonable expectation?

No, I fully expect attorneys to follow the law at all times and preferably err on the side of compliance if ever in doubt.  Never is it acceptable for an attorney to use their education, profession, or knowledge to help them commit any crime or break any law.

What's more, I fully expect them to comply with all other laws just as any ordinary citizen should.  While it is particularly important that they not abuse their position, that detracts nothing from the fact that they are expected to behave like any law abiding citizen.  If an attorney speeds, runs red lights, assaults a person, or keys someones car I fully expect them to face the same retribution any other person would face.

Clear enough for you?

Now substitute the word "police officer."  Can you state the same thing?  Because you wouldn't before.  Interesting that the police are not expected to follow the law and are entitled to abuse their positions in your world, but attorneys are not.  I hold both to a high standard and while recognizing that most abide by those standards wish those that do not just punishment under the law.

What's more, THE ATTORNEY IN THIS INSTANCE WAS NOT ACTING IN ANY CAPACITY AS AN ATTORNEY. His act is as pitiful for an attorney as it is for anyone else.  he acted under no color of law and hid behind no covert authority in his actions.  And, justifiably so, was punished like any other jackass.  But that same attorney can go to work the next day and not be a hypocrite (unlike an officer who breaks the law and then punishes others for doing the same).  This act would have the same significance if it was committed by a plumber, a welder, an accountant, or a senator - it's someone being a jackass.  Him being an attorney is only relevant in-so-much as the article makes him out to be a notable member of society.

If, honestly, you do not understand the difference between acting hypocritically in an official capacity (or similar abuse of power) and someone who happens to be a member of a profession acting like a jackass, let me know and I will try to explain it to you.  If, on the other hand, you simply harbor a grudge because I think the police should be expect to follow the laws - let me know and I'll move on.

Under color of law??? Official capacity??? What difference does that make to a victim of a crime perpetrated by an attorney unless the you are into some horse crap § 1983 standard. Just as police are empowered by the state, so are attorneys. Once an attorney is LICENSED by the state, they are attorneys 24 hours a day—presumably knowledgeable just as a police officer that keying up someone’s car is illegal. Furthermore, I would argue that powers an attorney has such as to “O.R.” people out of jail and issue subpoenas compelling action of private citizens “under color of law” plus the fact that they are indeed considered “officers of the court” places them at least in the same category as police officers. Most certainly, the notion that a lawyers’ criminal conduct should be classified to those in purely private professions such as a welder or an accountant, etc. is just wrong.

The point I was making in that previous thread and that I tried to drive home here is that attorneys need to clean up their our own house before thinking of cleaning up someone else's. Apparently, that’s not the case with you and that is unfortunate.

As far as my unwillingness to engage your issues from the previous thread, if you want to take me on on the subject of police misconduct, let's open it up. Where do you want to start? Number of police stops made every day in this country compared to the number of the "Rodney King" incidents. Better yet, let’s start with some facts. How many daily incidents are there of police officers violating a law and turning around and punishing people for doing the same? How many officers engage in this activity? I would like to know these facts before I have an opinion as to whether I “think the police will ever change” (which as you know was the title of the thread you started). Obtaining these facts should not be too hard since you conceded in that thread that misconduct used to be a “rarity” and that the police need to “learn and start playing by the rules, or just learn that they need to ensure they are not being recorded before breaking them…”

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by Conan71



Not spearing you Guido, I just don't see that some attorney being an immature pr!ck was even noteworthy for the news wires.

Come on Conan, it was news-worthy because this lawyer's attack was not only against a soldier but that the lawyer plainly tried to avoid criminal liability because of his victim's deployment.

I guess you could just say I'm underwhelmed by it all.  Attornies get paid to interpret, manipulate, and parse the law, that's why it doesn't shock me.  This guy's been doing it all his life with a smirk, as do thousands of others.  For so many it's not a matter of doing what's right it's a matter of doing what the law allows.

I'm not saying it's right, this Grodner guy is a walking pr!ck.  I notice his web site is off-line.  Since the latest account of the hearing today sounds like he's going to get tagged with a felony, the Ill. bar may have the final say on his legal career anyhow.