impressive new river development!!!

[brunoflipper]

A developer will unveil plans for a 12-story, $36 million development in the city's Bricktown entertainment district that will feature shops and restaurants, parking space and 66 condominiums...



http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080103_1__OKLAH34268

oh wait, wrong town...
never mind...
[xx(]

gotta love the first reader comment on the tw site...

[cannon_fodder]

As much as I want to be happy for the development in OKC, I loathe the fact that no large private development has taken place in Tulsa yet this decade.  Someone will surely jump in and correct me, but not on the scale we all anticipated with 2025, Kanbar, and so on.

[FOTD]

Gotta hand it to those folks down the pike.....Hicktown is no longer....it IS Bricktown. Like every major capitol, OKC (with two major interstates) has captured the tax and spend crowd (mostly democrats) and capitalized on investment timing to make it a major player even though it's still not cosmopolitan like Tee town. I fear we may be losing the comfortably cosmopolitan designation. Our streets make us look like pikers....going down to OKC.

I still don't want to copy them though....let's continue to work on being a step above the cowtown capitol. We have much deeper pockets (of class) here.....

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Gotta hand it to those folks down the pike.....Hicktown is no longer....it IS Bricktown. Like every major capitol, OKC (with two major interstates) has captured the tax and spend crowd (mostly democrats) and capitalized on investment timing to make it a major player even though it's still not cosmopolitan like Tee town. I fear we may be losing the comfortably cosmopolitan designation. Our streets make us look like pikers....going down to OKC.

I still don't want to copy them though....let's continue to work on being a step above the cowtown capitol. We have much deeper pockets (of class) here.....

are you blaming the democrats? because a) that is ****ing nuts and b) if it were true, it seems to really be working out for them while we sit here and stagnate...

i hate bricktown, but if they continue to ramp it up, they'll have the last laugh...

[TheArtist]

We really do need to do something to capture the imagination and interest of developers for our downtown. What we have done, and are doing, so far is of course great and needed,,,, But there is still not that something that will act as the true spark to rally growth around.  

However, if we were to get our downtown going AND the river, then we could skunk OKC. We still got; a beautiful downtown, beautiful hills by a real river, interesting culture and class out the wazoo compared to them. But, unused, underutilized, uninvested in "potential" don't cut it.

[Conan71]

Our best natural opportunity to compete toe-to-toe w/ OKC is the Elm Creek plan from the Pearl to the River.  Human scale, very walkable, incorporates vital areas of downtown ripe for re-development.

[Wilbur]

Oklahoma City's total sales tax is 8.375%, which is less the Tulsa's.  Yet Tulsa says we keep needing more so we can do the same things as Oklahoma City.

Why can Oklahoma City do more with less?

[si_uk_lon_ok]

I think some of the blame has to be laid on the property owners in downtown Tulsa. Properties, even empty ones and ones that are falling down don't enter the market. Last time I checked the owner of the Tulsa Club was still refusing to sell to people who wanted to do lofts in the building.
When properties are listed for sale they are on the whole over priced and don't represent a good return to investors. There are people who want to develop, maybe not on the scale in the article, but the hoarding of land often as car parks or vacant buildings means it's often too expensive. If Tulsa could bring a steady steam of properties and land onto the market that represented viable development opportunities I'm sure there would be developments all around town.

[FOTD]

I may have to post this here and on that Jinx thread regarding TIF financing....

Restructuring experts see tough '08 for retailers
January 4, 2008
WASHINGTON (AP) – Bankruptcy and restructuring professionals are expecting a New Year's gift from the retailing industry: more business.
Retailers are expected to have a hard time luring shoppers struggling with higher mortgage payments, fuel costs and dwindling confidence in the U.S. economy in 2008. Experts say companies competing for a slice of the diminished consumer-spending pie will find it difficult to avoid trouble if they're already carrying a heavy debt load.
Although only a small percentage of Americans have adjustable-rate mortgages scheduled to reset to higher rates next year, the home-foreclosure crisis has frightened consumers that do have the extra cash to spend. As a result, bankruptcy and restructuring experts believe Americans will grow more tightfisted in 2008.
"Not only do you have people with less money, but you have a sector of the population who thinks they may have less money in the future," said Richard A. Chesley, a partner at the Paul Hastings law firm.
Consumer confidence has been shaken over the last few months. The Conference Board's index of consumer confidence rose slightly in December, but Americans remained uneasy about the economy, said Lynn Franco, director of the board's consumer research center. Consumers' claiming conditions are "good" decreased to 20.3 percent from 22.5 percent. Those saying conditions are "bad" increased to 20 percent from 18.9 percent.
"Uncertainty in the job market, people worrying about paying heating bills, mortgages and relative gloom over the economy is really fueling the drop in consumer confidence and until we get out of that, the retail sector will be hurt," Chesley said.
Experts say specialty retailers could be especially hard-hit if 2008 turns into a difficult year for U.S. consumers. Chesley said that when the economy hits a bump and discretionary spending and consumer confidence drop, specialty retailers that cater to a subset of consumers are subject to the greatest bankruptcy risk.
Several specialty retailers suffered financial setbacks in 2007. Competition from electronic retailing rivals caused CompUSA Inc. to close its stores and Tweeter Home Entertainment Group Inc. to seek Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Home-furnishings retailers Bombay Co. and Levitz Furniture Inc. also filed for bankruptcy last year.
William K. Snyder, managing partner at turnaround firm CRG Partners, said the trend is likely to continue well into 2008, with bankruptcy filings or out-of-court liquidations particularly prevalent in the home furnishings, accessories and improvement sectors.
Pier One Imports, World Market and other stores that had competed with Bombay are on his watch list, Snyder said, as well the home accessories departments of Home Depot Inc. and Lowe's .
These stores depend on what Snyder calls a "change in lifestyle." Buying and decorating a new home fall under that category, but consumers have all but abandoned the real-estate market.
Chesley said struggling homeowners aren't the only ones who have less money to spend at retail stores. As home sales in the United States slow and fewer homes are built, the discretionary spending of those who work in the real estate and homebuilding industries will also fall.
A number of homebuilders filed for bankruptcy in 2007, including Neumann Homes Inc., one of Chicago's largest residential builders, California home builder Dunmore Homes Inc. and Levitt Corp.'s Levitt and Sons LLC.
"People who are having difficulties making payments on their homes are obviously taken out largely from the discretionary spending pool," Chesley said. "On the other side of that same equation, as less homes are being built, everybody that is associated with that industry has less discretionary income to spend."
Peter J. Antoszyk, a partner at law firm Proskauer Rose, said restructuring professionals are already starting to get calls from retailers. Most retailers, however, are likely to pick up the phone for restructuring services after the holiday season is over and they've had a chance to take stock of how they did during the Christmas shopping frenzy, he said. So far, holiday retail sales have fallen short of industry expectations.
Chesley said retailers can expect to face a difficult time throughout 2008.
The number of adjustable-rate mortgages slated to reset will peak early next year, but the repercussions – rising foreclosures and diminished consumer spending – will be felt during the months that follow.
"Retailers will have to weather what looks to be a long-term turbulence," Chesley said. "I think we have to see this housing crisis ride out before retailers can get the pressure lifted."
Copyright © 2008 The Journal Record All Rights Reserved
101 N. Robinson Ave., Ste. 101, Oklahoma City, OK, 73102 |
P.O. Box 26370, Oklahoma City, OK, 73126-0370 | (405) 235-3100
415 S. Boston Ave., Ste. 101, Tulsa, OK 74103 | (918) 295-0098

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Oklahoma City's total sales tax is 8.375%, which is less the Tulsa's.  Yet Tulsa says we keep needing more so we can do the same things as Oklahoma City.

Why can Oklahoma City do more with less?

Oklahoma City's city sales tax is higher than Tulsa's. The difference in the total sales tax rate is that Oklahoma County has no sales tax and Tulsa county has almost a cent and a half.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Oklahoma City's total sales tax is 8.375%, which is less the Tulsa's.  Yet Tulsa says we keep needing more so we can do the same things as Oklahoma City.

Why can Oklahoma City do more with less?

Oklahoma City's city sales tax is higher than Tulsa's. The difference in the total sales tax rate is that Oklahoma County has no sales tax and Tulsa county has almost a cent and a half.

Swake, here's the point:  Regardless of what pocket it's going into and out of, people are wondering what miracle of government management is happening in OKC which is giving them major infrastructure improvements at an overall lower sales tax rate and why the roads are so much better in OKC to boot with that lower sales tax rate.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Oklahoma City's total sales tax is 8.375%, which is less the Tulsa's.  Yet Tulsa says we keep needing more so we can do the same things as Oklahoma City.

Why can Oklahoma City do more with less?

Oklahoma City's city sales tax is higher than Tulsa's. The difference in the total sales tax rate is that Oklahoma County has no sales tax and Tulsa county has almost a cent and a half.

Swake, here's the point:  Regardless of what pocket it's going into and out of, people are wondering what miracle of government management is happening in OKC which is giving them major infrastructure improvements at an overall lower sales tax rate and why the roads are so much better in OKC to boot with that lower sales tax rate.

Oklahoma City's roads are actually already rated an "F", and that's even with the obviously better expressways. Their surface streets are quite a bit worse than even ours. I'm not saying we are well doing with our "D", but it's not an "F". Oklahoma City actually has the 10th worst roads in the United States.

http://www.tripnet.org/national/RoughRoadsPR052605.htm

I would also say that they have dumped nearly all their improvement money into about half a square mile where our money has been spent all over town and even all over the county. Much of Oklahoma City outside of that half square mile is really a dump. Tulsa issues has downtown, Oklahoma City has issues outside of downtown, which would you rather have? And don't forget they have had some serious state money flow into helping their downtown area that we have seen nothing of. Cities in Oklahoma are broke, it's really that simple.

[TheArtist]

That is an interesting perspective. Tulsa really does have a lot more nicer areas than OKC has. Their downtown/bricktown area gets a lot of buzz though. But that does go to show how having a single place like that can change and influence the perception of the whole area. When visitors come to Tulsa, or any city, they dont judge it by the burbs or shopping malls, they often go downtown and make the assessment of the entire city by whats there. It may be "logically" entirely wrong to do so,,, but people tend to do that regardless.

If you look at my "Tulsa developments 2000's" there is quite a bit of stuff there even compared to OKC, but its all spread out. And like I have said. If Tulsa actually does get a river development of its own and even a bit more downtown. We will be doing quite well. We are behind, but I actually think we just might pull a sneaky one up on them.

IMO they don't have a mid-town. There is nothing like the Utica Square/Villa Philbrook area (Utica Place is looking right niiiiiice if ya ask me). Brookside is great and getting better. Same with Cherry Street. Jenks River District et al counts for Tulsa imo. It would be within OKCs city boundries thats for sure if we were to compare. We have several new budding college campuses plus TUs growth. And again, if we do get trail and park improvements and a development along our river and downtown... OKC will have bricktown and...well, butt ugly every where else lol.  

We can do it. Steady as she goes. Quality versus quantity. Perspectives may change here in about 4 years and it may be them asking "How the heck did Tulsa get so many different nice places and things all of a sudden?" "How could they have done that? Where did it come from?" We are kind of doing a gradual, under the radar, broad, stealth approach to development lol. Lets keep our eye on the prize. We will get there.

[OKC_Shane]

The fundamental difference between modern OKC and modern Tulsa is the willingness of OKC's citizens to support anything that our leaders think is good for the city. We approve EVERYTHING.

The reason we focused on downtown is that it's a neutral area (free of northwest vs southside prejudices etc) and because of course downtown is where outsiders will make their judgements of the entire city. It's the heart of the city. By pouring a billion or so dollars into public projects downtown, we got developers to go ahead and throw in several more billions. We heaved a big stone into the middle of the pond, and now the splash is falling down across the city. Ripples are spreading from downtown, from Midtown, from the Arts District, from the northeast side (which is being HEAVILY colonized by urban pioneers), from the river (and let's face it- who cares if it's a "real" river or not if it brings us International sport events and a host of recreational opportunities downtown?).

And if you think the urban core is the only part of OKC that is doing well, you're kind of wrong... Chesapeake is spreading waves of beautification over its Western Ave neighborhood, the Kilpatrick Tpk is lined with office and medical developments and even a mixed use "upscale urban community" under construction north of Quail Springs Mall. The recently passed bond issue will provide for 350 miles of sidewalk in areas that don't have them for increased walkability and repair hundreds of miles of mostly residential streets outside of downtown.

OKC and Tulsa approached their modern urban renewals in two different ways, but both are working... in different ways. Ours is making a bigger splash, becuase it's mostly happening downtown- and that's where the people go to judge.

[TheArtist]

Here is a KOTV video clip on the development.

http://www.kotv.com/e-clips/news/

I like how its 2 stories of retail, then above that 4 stories of parking, then at least 4 more stories of living above that. Great example of urban, mixed use development.


I am glad for OKC. Its exciting to see what they are doing. It will help the perception of the whole state to have a great city, and that by default will help Tulsa as well. OKC took the "big stone big ripple effect" approach. Tulsa seems to be taking the "lots of little stones" approach but the best way to guarantee a big ripple effect is to make sure most of those little stones are coordinated and headed in a purposeful direction.

One thing that Tulsa is doing a lot of is on the higher education front. We are making up for lost time there and its costing money and effort that could have gone to other things, but will definitely pay off down the road. Not as flashy as a canal, but education is good, basic, city infrastructure that will ensure solid future growth. In about the time OKC has done MAPS we have built OSU Tulsa, NSU BA, OU Tulsa, expanded most TCC campuses, Tulsa Tech, and have seen growth at TU and Spartan. I hope we do more in this area.