AEP considers burying lines

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by patric

The Corporation Commission released part of their report on the ice storm response by electric utilities Wednesday...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080605_49_A11_spancl720940

'The report contends, however, that burying all electric infrastructure would be too expensive and is simply not possible.

The price to bury all transmission lines in the state would run $27 billion and have a potential impact of $270 per month on customer bills.

Instead, the report recommends a more measured response that includes burying new transmission lines and burying power lines when it is requested by a majority of neighborhood residents. It also calls for burying some distribution lines when the wire is replaced as part of regular maintenance.'

If they are using costs supplied to them by AEP (the grossly over-estimated ones they've been using to scare people away from undergrounding) then it's no surprise that it's "too expensive".

At the very least, PSO should be using undergrounding for all new construction, but they continue to set new poles to this date -- new poles that they will argue will be to expensive to bury later.

You get the impression the Corporation Commission doesnt really work for us...

Estimates nationwide go from $2M to $6M per mile, not counting the costs to buy a new right of way from every single property owner in the state.

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by breitee

quote:Originally posted by jackbristow

quote:Originally posted by mrB
Sure the green boxes look bad, but minimal landscaping can make them less obtrusive. I know of someone in Ranch Acres [recently converted/buried] who requested PSO pay for the landscaping. PSO balked at the estimated price to hide the box, but ultimately paid for it in full.

I tend to think that the green boxes look a lot better than power lines running all over the place.  The view of the sky, trees, sunsets, etc. is so much better without looking at utility poles and power lines!

You will still have the poles to carry the wires for telephone and cable.

That's a lot less wire in the air and it's a start.

[jne]

quote:Originally posted by breitee

quote:Originally posted by jackbristow

quote:Originally posted by mrB
Sure the green boxes look bad, but minimal landscaping can make them less obtrusive. I know of someone in Ranch Acres [recently converted/buried] who requested PSO pay for the landscaping. PSO balked at the estimated price to hide the box, but ultimately paid for it in full.

I tend to think that the green boxes look a lot better than power lines running all over the place.  The view of the sky, trees, sunsets, etc. is so much better without looking at utility poles and power lines!

You will still have the poles to carry the wires for telephone and cable.

People still use wired telephones?  I can get by w/out cable - Even in sub-zero temps and 100 degree heat.  Has there ever been any discussion of bundling other service lines underground as well?  Don't they already rent pole space from the utility company?

[waterboy]

I would gladly accept underground utilities. Those who think Maple Ridge is of one mind about that are wrong. We're sick of losing power in average storms. And bundling them makes great sense. That's why you can't do it. My understanding from lineman for both cable and AT&T is that by law they cannot be within a foot of each other.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by mrB

quote:Originally posted by Steve

quote:Originally posted by mrB

quote:Originally posted by Steve

I have a big question for AEP on this subject.

During the Dec. 2007 ice storm, one of the few Tulsa neighborhoods that sustained the least outage damage was the Leisure Lanes subdivision between 69th E. Ave/71st E. Ave and 15th/21st Street in Tulsa.  My neice lives in this neighborhood and I went over there often to take refuge.  They never lost power.  Yet, in January 2008, PSO commenced to bury all the power lines in this neighborhood.  Just plain crazy.  Why did they bury the lines in Leisure Lanes, when so many other areas experience more frequent outages?

Leisure Lanes & Moeller Heights [1 block immediately east] neighborhoods were already scheduled for conversion. And although Leisure Lanes had power in Dec07 ice storm, Moeller Heights did not. My in-law's power was out for two weeks in Dec07. It was out again this last weekend. It has been out several times and usually with the slightest of winds. I'm glad it's being buried in that neighborhood.

I am very familiar with the Leisure Lanes/Moeller Heights area as I grew up there in the 1960s and my parents built one of the first homes on 20th Street at 69th E Ave in 1960.  My point is why is PSO burying the lines in these neighborhoods when so many older areas of Tulsa have much more frequent outages and a much higher priority for buried power lines?  The priorities don't make any sense.

I agree with you! It does seem like other areas would be higher priorities. I'm sure anybody that went more than four days in Dec07 felt like they should be a priority.

Did PSO talk with your neice's neighborhood before starting the project? Maybe they met less resistance than in places like Maple Ridge?

I asked my neice Jill about this and if PSO took a neighborhood survey or asked any local opinions before starting the Leisure Lanes conversion.  She said "no," they were just told that PSO was doing the underground conversion and they were given time to make sure their yards were clear and obsticales were removed.  There was no neighborhood meeting or discussion on the matter whatsoever.

The new transformer boxes go down the south side of the street where my neice's house is, but they skip her yard.  I assume the transformer boxes will go on the opposite side of the street where the City water supply lines are; about 10 years ago, the City came down my street and replaced the water supply line, digging up and replacing every driveway/yard on my side of the street.  As for the electric conversion, I only hope the people across the street from me will experience that disruption and have the transformers placed in their yard.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by jne


People still use wired telephones?  I can get by w/out cable - Even in sub-zero temps and 100 degree heat.  Has there ever been any discussion of bundling other service lines underground as well?  Don't they already rent pole space from the utility company?

I believe it has come up before that they are even less interested in undergrounding.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by breitee

You will still have the poles to carry the wires for telephone and cable.

Not for long.  The other utilities will migrate underground once AEP no longer wishes to maintain the poles.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle
Estimates nationwide go from $2M to $6M per mile, not counting the costs to buy a new right of way from every single property owner in the state.

at&t didnt buy a right-of-way when they tunneled under my driveway... or do I have a check coming? []

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle
Estimates nationwide go from $2M to $6M per mile, not counting the costs to buy a new right of way from every single property owner in the state.

at&t didnt buy a right-of-way when they tunneled under my driveway... or do I have a check coming? []

They may have already had it. I have a coworker in BA and everyone who got undergrounded got a check and do a bunch of legal stuff.

[sauerkraut]

I hear underground wires can make it harder to find trouble and power outages can last longer and cost more to fix, alot more, and that extra cost is passed on to you know who.[B)]

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I hear underground wires can make it harder to find trouble and power outages can last longer and cost more to fix, alot more, and that extra cost is passed on to you know who.[B)]

I hear you can hear that from cheap utilities that  let their infrastructure run down.[8D]
If you have lines underground, they arent subject to tornadoes or tree limbs or ice storms or bad drivers (that would be the source of "trouble" 'round here).  The biggest reasons not to bury are storm surges from hurricanes, and what are the odds...

[patric]

AEP gives the Corporation Commission their numbers, and the CC spins it into a smokescreen:

'The cost of burying lines across the state could reach $57 billion.'
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080701_11_A1_hPOWER765783

Looks like they inflated the figure by including ALL lines - even the huge rural towers that interconnect with other utilities (that you usually never find buried anywhere).
Add this to the inflated price of neighborhood burial and you have an excuse to maintain the status quo of our crumbling infrastructure.

The Corporation Commission sees eliminating trees as the best solution (good news for cut-and-burn land developers).
I see getting a new Corporation Commission before we make any real progress.

[sgrizzle]

Seems like they took a few things a bit too literally. Some of their suggestions, such as undergrounding during road projects when they have easy access are a no brainer.

I still don't see how the prices are overly inflated.

quote:
In addition, Edmond Electric tried a buried lines project four years ago and found that half of the residents did not even want to pay $400 for meter base conversion, the OCC noted.

AEP says burying would start at $435,000 per mile. AEP inflating numbers?

quote:
...a 2006 Mainland study by the Edison Electric Institute — the association of U.S. shareholder-owned electric companies — estimates the cost of burying existing overhead power lines at $1 million per mile.

(keep in mind copper prices have increased 30% since 2006)

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

AEP says burying would start at $435,000 per mile. AEP inflating numbers?

I think the quote was "$435,000 and $2.5 million per mile."

[patric]

Looks like AEP announced it would come to a halt:


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20081209_11_A1_AnAspl244445

The instability of the U.S. markets has prompted AEP-PSO to suspend its program to bury overhead lines to protect them from inclement weather, an official said Monday.

Meanwhile, the $2 fee for tree trimming and underground burial will continue to show up on electric bills, Bettinger said.