Signs Gone WILD: Legal or NOT. YOU Decide

[tulsasignnazi]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder


and no, no stake in the sign company or any similar ventures.  Just sayin' the guys just making signs.

You are right too.  Perhaps Mr. Laake should do his part to advise his customers of the LAW?  Naaaaaaah.

Of course, he would probably be doing that with a wink.  EVERYBODY knows why someone would order up 500 coroplast signs for stumps3dust.com.  

There's only one reason.  Mr. Laake's customers want the public to see them.  The only places where the GENERAL public can see them is if they are on the PUBLIC right-of-way.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:The only places where the GENERAL public can see them is if they are on the PUBLIC right-of-way.

The public drives by my front lawn all the time.  Why would they not see them at that location?  

Come on, I signed your petition to run for city council, at least give me the fact that this man is doing anything you can prevent.  What, do we want to require a license to have a damn sign printed now?  What are we going to do about pop cans on the side of the road - someone do a fluff piece on Reasor's for selling those cans to punk kids.

[waterboy]

Hmmm. Let me continue this logic. Since he just makes the signs and doesn't distribute them, he is honorable and legal. Just like Lowes carrying spray paint.

Seems logical then that Colombia growing coca has no responsibility for street users in Tulsa. For that matter the distributors, mules, middle men have no resposibility as well.

That doesn't work because the end product has simply been classified as illegal to produce, possess or distribute in this country. So if you want to go after this guy or the guys buying from him, the only way would be to make the product illegal to produce, possess or distribute. Or we could saddle him with the same responsibility a bartender has to not put an obviously drunk patron with car keys on the street. Is it that important to keep our easements clear?

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:The only places where the GENERAL public can see them is if they are on the PUBLIC right-of-way.

The public drives by my front lawn all the time.  Why would they not see them at that location?  

Come on, I signed your petition to run for city council, at least give me the fact that this man is doing anything you can prevent.  What, do we want to require a license to have a damn sign printed now?  What are we going to do about pop cans on the side of the road - someone do a fluff piece on Reasor's for selling those cans to punk kids.

Funny that you mention that, Aldi stores in large metropolitan areas used to supply free large plastic Aldi grocery bags to homeless people and would leave stacks of the things in shelters, and charities for the Urban Outdoorspeople to stuff their belongings in.



Giant Aldi logos are all over St. Louis, and Chicago.  Free advertising on every corner and in every alley.  The bags blow freely through the streets.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:The only places where the GENERAL public can see them is if they are on the PUBLIC right-of-way.

The public drives by my front lawn all the time.  Why would they not see them at that location?  

Come on, I signed your petition to run for city council, at least give me the fact that this man is doing anything you can prevent.  What, do we want to require a license to have a damn sign printed now?  What are we going to do about pop cans on the side of the road - someone do a fluff piece on Reasor's for selling those cans to punk kids.

Funny that you mention that, Aldi stores in large metropolitan areas used to supply free large plastic Aldi grocery bags to homeless people and would leave stacks of the things in shelters, and charities for the Urban Outdoorspeople to stuff their belongings in.



Giant Aldi logos are all over St. Louis, and Chicago.  Free advertising on every corner and in every alley.  The bags blow freely through the streets.

So they're free to the homeless but they charge the customers?

[NellieBly]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

RM, I have seen these signs used for perfectly legal purposes all over the place.  When a tree service, roofing, or siding company does work they often place one of these in your yard.  Campaign signs are often placed by citizens in their yards.  In front of businesses they place such signs out to advertise sales.  

It should also be noted that he does other work too - magnetic signs for cars for instance.

Your angst against this man is as misplaced as the hatred the record companies have for CD-Burners.  Just because people MIGHT use them for illegal purposes puts no angst on the manufacturer.  

Think of all the illegal uses for spray paint:  graffiti, vandalizing cars, huffing, covering up security cameras...  look at all the illegal uses for signs - placing them on rights-of way.    Frankly, the spray paint causes more damage, but I'm still OK with Lowes selling it.

and no, no stake in the sign company or any similar ventures.  Just sayin' the guys just making signs.

Yes, the signs are perfectly legal when placed on private property behind the right of way. I don't begrudge him making a living. People who want to advertise on the street corner have any number of sign makers from which to choose.
Unfortunately, 99.9 percent of the signs he sells are placed illegally and of course, he knows it.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Hmmm. Let me continue this logic. Since he just makes the signs and doesn't distribute them, he is honorable and legal. Just like Lowes carrying spray paint.

Seems logical then that Colombia growing coca has no responsibility for street users in Tulsa. For that matter the distributors, mules, middle men have no resposibility as well.

That doesn't work because the end product has simply been classified as illegal to produce, possess or distribute in this country. So if you want to go after this guy or the guys buying from him, the only way would be to make the product illegal to produce, possess or distribute. Or we could saddle him with the same responsibility a bartender has to not put an obviously drunk patron with car keys on the street. Is it that important to keep our easements clear?

I'm a bit confused, but OK.

Columbian drug lords grow illegal supplies of coca, illegally process it, illegally transport it, illegal import it into the market, and then illegal distribute it to solely illegal users.  It is illegal in Columbia, the US, and all points in between.

This man uses legal materials to legally produce signs and then legally sells them to people - some of whom use them illegally.

Do you see the difference?

If you like cocaine I can use that.  There are legal coca plantations in Columbia that grow for the pharmaceutical industry.  They then legally process it and legally sell it to pharmacies.  Then an MD legally prescribes cocaine as a nasal pain reliever  - if the end purchaser then decides to use it recreationaly instead, I do not hold anyone in the supply chain liable.
- -

I'm not daft.  I understand what is going on.  My point is - you can not realistically do anything about it nor can you prove that this man has any inclination that he is doing anything wrong.  Of course Phillips knows it's DVD burners copy DVDs (the vast majority of burns are illegal), is that their fault?

[tulsasignnazi]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

This man uses legal materials to legally produce signs and then legally sells them to people - some of whom use them illegally.

I'm not daft.  I understand what is going on.  My point is - you can not realistically do anything about it nor can you prove that this man has any inclination that he is doing anything wrong.  Of course Phillips knows it's DVD burners copy DVDs (the vast majority of burns are illegal), is that their fault?

Mr. Laake also advertises his services using his own products.  His signs for tulsayardsigns.com can be found placed ILLEGALLY, in violation of City ordinance, on PUBLIC right-of-ways.

That's how KOTV found the man.

KOTV is also doing a bang up job of AIDING and ABETTING.  Even though they might claim IGNORANCE, violations of sign ordinance is considered strict liability.  Mens rea NOT required to prove guilt.

To the person who asked if this is really an important issue, the law is on the books.  Election season is just around the corner.  And, the signs WILL go up illegally.  Bet on it.  

The City Council can repeal the ordinance ANYTIME they like.

[jne]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Bah, I don't blame Steve.  He prints signs.  Some other idiot places them all over the place.

I also don't blame Wal-Mart for selling spray paint that ends up under over passes.  Ford for hit and runs.  Polaroid for child pornography.  Or Colt for homicides.

Of course, it would be a good business model for him to print and sell them to such idiots, and then go and pick up the illegal ones.  With any luck, the dolt will buy more from him. []

But there are hundreds if not thousands of legitimate uses for spray paint. There are very few legal uses of these signs.

This guy is making the equivalent of a bong and saying it could be used for a flowervase.

Ahem, tobacco waterpipe...

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Hmmm. Let me continue this logic. Since he just makes the signs and doesn't distribute them, he is honorable and legal. Just like Lowes carrying spray paint.

Seems logical then that Colombia growing coca has no responsibility for street users in Tulsa. For that matter the distributors, mules, middle men have no resposibility as well.

That doesn't work because the end product has simply been classified as illegal to produce, possess or distribute in this country. So if you want to go after this guy or the guys buying from him, the only way would be to make the product illegal to produce, possess or distribute. Or we could saddle him with the same responsibility a bartender has to not put an obviously drunk patron with car keys on the street. Is it that important to keep our easements clear?

I'm a bit confused, but OK.

Columbian drug lords grow illegal supplies of coca, illegally process it, illegally transport it, illegal import it into the market, and then illegal distribute it to solely illegal users.  It is illegal in Columbia, the US, and all points in between.

This man uses legal materials to legally produce signs and then legally sells them to people - some of whom use them illegally.

Do you see the difference?

If you like cocaine I can use that.  There are legal coca plantations in Columbia that grow for the pharmaceutical industry.  They then legally process it and legally sell it to pharmacies.  Then an MD legally prescribes cocaine as a nasal pain reliever  - if the end purchaser then decides to use it recreationaly instead, I do not hold anyone in the supply chain liable.
- -

I'm not daft.  I understand what is going on.  My point is - you can not realistically do anything about it nor can you prove that this man has any inclination that he is doing anything wrong.  Of course Phillips knows it's DVD burners copy DVDs (the vast majority of burns are illegal), is that their fault?

Well, CF, I was agreeing with you. I went a roundabout way to do so hoping it would make someone think. Coca is not illegal to grow in South America or possess or distribute. At least not in practice. If so it would decimate the worker population as they all use it while harvesting the crops. It is illegal in the states unless for medical use. My point is that in order to stop a very effective, cheap manner of advertising thats available to the masses (elements similar to illegal drugs) one would have to treat it as an illegal drug. It doesn't seem worth the effort.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Saw the promo and switched the channel.
Is local news so pathetic they have to resort to this type journalism? Too bad there wasn't a storm over NW Arkansas.....

Time for KOTV to really shake it up and crash a helicopter on a low pass at Pogue Airport or something like that. (non-injury, of course) []

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by tulsasignnazi

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

This man uses legal materials to legally produce signs and then legally sells them to people - some of whom use them illegally.

I'm not daft.  I understand what is going on.  My point is - you can not realistically do anything about it nor can you prove that this man has any inclination that he is doing anything wrong.  Of course Phillips knows it's DVD burners copy DVDs (the vast majority of burns are illegal), is that their fault?

Mr. Laake also advertises his services using his own products.  His signs for tulsayardsigns.com can be found placed ILLEGALLY, in violation of City ordinance, on PUBLIC right-of-ways.

That's how KOTV found the man.

KOTV is also doing a bang up job of AIDING and ABETTING.  Even though they might claim IGNORANCE, violations of sign ordinance is considered strict liability.  Mens rea NOT required to prove guilt.

To the person who asked if this is really an important issue, the law is on the books.  Election season is just around the corner.  And, the signs WILL go up illegally.  Bet on it.  

The City Council can repeal the ordinance ANYTIME they like.

So, all the signs that popped up on easements after the ice storm were illegal. That is true. There are lots of laws that go unenforced because the reality is that the formality of laws does not always mesh well with the informality of life. In other words, THOSE SIGNS WERE A BENEFIT TO THE COMMUNITY! People did not rely only on the yellow pages, the radio ads, the TV ads or the billboards to find needed tree services. These signs were good exceptions to enforcement.

This whole argument about signs is one of economics and class. Walgreens and Creek Nation Casino can offend my senses with obnoxious LED signs flashing their inane messages whether I want to see them or not because they are entrenched businesses able to influence or flaunt the ordinances controlling them. "Worthy" causes like fund raisers for religious organizations, book fairs, bazaars etc. are tolerated when they put banners and signs in easements because of their gentry standing and alleged non-profit status. But tell someone how to get their trees cleaned up or lose 20lbs and you all are lighting the torches!

These signs for political races, garage sales, lose weight, and fundraisers are a fact of life. The abuse of them can be managed but common use cannot be stopped. Other media are too damn expensive for them and they will proliferate unless you make them akin to an illegal drug. When you get people to do 65mph on the BA expwy, then start on the signs.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
This whole argument about signs is one of economics and class.

That is not true. There are many illegal signs advertising companies who buy houses. These people are not poor, just use poor techniques to get attention. The K-Mart on 21st street constantly puts out illegal signs promoting clearance items. They are not some poor retailer.

These signs are litter on a stick, visual pollution meant only to make a sale for a company purposely violating the law.

Why is this not is the same as a company cheating on their taxes or using employing illegal workers?

[tulsasignnazi]

quote:So, all the signs that popped up on easements after the ice storm were illegal. That is true. There are lots of laws that go unenforced because the reality is that the formality of laws does not always mesh well with the informality of life. In other words, THOSE SIGNS WERE A BENEFIT TO THE COMMUNITY! People did not rely only on the yellow pages, the radio ads, the TV ads or the billboards to find needed tree services. These signs were good exceptions to enforcement.

You are right too, WB.  So, let's call on City Council to REPEAL the law, instead of SELECTIVE enforcement.  There are a LOT of City Ordinances that are pretty STUPID.

But, the PAINFUL truth is the City Council is NOT doing THEIR job to review them on a scheduled basis to get rid of them.  Shouldn't there be a City Ordinance requiring City Council to do just THAT?  Naaaaaaaaaah.  They only get paid for part-time work.

And, DEFINITELY wouldn't want to make ANY waves while you got yer sights set on STATE SENATE, wouldya?  

Until City Council finally gets around to doing THEIR job, do you really want one set of enforcement for one set of folks and then another standard of enforcement for another set of folks?  Is that fair?  Do we not have a legal system based on rule of LAW, not of men?  

I call on the City's Chief Prosecutor, Bob Garner, to vigorously prosecute Mr. Laake.  If John Trebelicock, the State Senator, recently busted for DUI in Municipal Court didn't get the skate, why should Mr. Laake?  

If Mr. Garner REFUSES to bring charges on Mr. Laake, I am sure somewhere in the Oklahoma State Statutes there are provisions for citizens to press charges in court.  Wouldn't want to be caught NOT doing YOUR job, wouldya, Mr. Garner?

The FORMALITY of the situation is the LAW is PUBLIC.  Everybody KNOWS the rules.  Mr. Laake had a priori knowledge AND has committed a CRIME.  His CONFESSION is even caught on tape.  

Mens rea and actus rea are both present for prima facie case to prove guilt BEYOND reasonable doubt.

In the near past, nobody knew who was behind these illegal signs.  These illegal signs used to just sprout up like mushrooms.  NO one witnessed the crime.  NO one confessed.  NOW, we know.  Mr. Laake has confessed to the CRIME.  Thank you, KOTV!

But, a man's innocent unless proven guilty by trial.  Even if Mr. Laake is proven innocent, he should at least be PUNISHED by the PROCESS.

Who decides which signs are beneficial for society?  If you are allowed to decide that tulsayardsigns.com is doing a public service, then, shouldn't a FAT person decide that the TOTAL weight loss sign is also beneficial too?  Naaaaaaaaaaah.  Forget it.

In the meantime, ALL Tulsa Sign Nazis, FRONT and CENTER!!!![][][^]

[waterboy]

You both make my point rather well.

Sign Nazi...choose your battles well. Using the words "selective enforcement" is a red herring. Law enforcement simply cannot effectively enforce 100% compliance of all the laws that are written. Choosing to eliminate all push in signs, even the ones for the Brushy Creek fund raiser or whatever, is attainable though. All it takes is more funding, more battles in court, more administration to handle garage sale and political sign registrations, and the tolerance for paying less attention to more important matters. And for what? So visitors can nod in approval..."Gee, that Tulsa sure has pretty easements and fat happy media moguls." How much of this is sour grapes by media owners who know they are not as price effective as a simple little sign? It might be chheaper and more effective to continue as we are now with some more pr effort of our own. Call these operators, encourage responsible behavior, have the mayor use her pulpit or the councillors. Walk softly but carry the big stick.

Meanwhile, like Mike says, the retailers and the more prosperous, influential types will still use every trick to make sure they get your attention. You guys know there are discussions right now about sign ordinance changes. Changes that could allow obnoxious LED and LCD type moving picture signage that is distracting, ugly and energy wasteful. Now there's a battle for you. But who do you go after? LOSE 20LBS! CALL 000-0000 or PIANO LESSONS CALL 000-0000. Low hanging fruit. Yeah, that's not economics or class warfare.  Send city workers in to ticket the K-Mart and Office Depot managers? Doubt that will happen. More likely book fairs and non-profits will get some sort of exception or registration clause. Politicians won't be touched. Bet on that.

It is class and economics. Price a yellow pages ad. Try to run an ad in the newspaper and reach your target market for $300. Check in to production cost and time on all the electronic media in order to reach people needing their trees trimmed. The result is that only those with great PR skills or good advertising budgets can do those media. Yeah, a local K-Mart manager will slip one in as well as greedy real estate foreclosure cons, but a call to the main office will end that. What you get by forcing high % compliance is eliminating the little guys. You want to only have Nosak as your official Tulsa tree trimmer?