101st and Memorial

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Memorial should follow that pattern as well. Retail, offices/apartments, homes. Who is in charge of zoning around this town anyway? lol

actually, for large portions of memorial that is the case.  but I think a large problem is looking north south for examples when we need to look east/west for examples.  Look at examples like Chimney Hills, not examples like 71st/memorial.  hell, even the examples of development at 71st/memorial are better than this attempt to slap major retail right up against single family residential.

Population density is a lot lower two miles south at 121st. I would also assume that the average income in a five mile radius starting at 121st is quite a bit lower than a five mile radius starting at 101st.

And your traffic argument is valid, but not in the way you assume. A higher traffic count at 101st is a positive to the store. And 101st site has better accessibility being two miles closer to the Creek Turnpike. The 121st site is less attractive for people that would come to the store from points along the Creek. Fewer people with less money at a site with lower traffic counts and a worse accessibility, it's a slam dunk and why Target is willing to pay for the site as opposed to getting the land for free.

Lastly, the city of Tulsa needs the tax revenue. The site at 101st conforms with the City of Tulsa's zoning plan and also with the city's overall strategy to build retail on the edges of the city that captures sales tax revenue from suburban communities.

It's not that a store would not be viable at 121st, it's that the demographics and accessibility of a store at 101st are so much better and the location is where the city of Tulsa wants the store.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by Kashmir

I guess I am a bad person because I am looking forward to cutting through that neighborhood from my (smaller, less expensive)neighborhood to get to Super Target.

But I wouldn't want the bright lots of Target shining in my backyard.  That would really suck if you lived in the villas, but I always supposed something was going to go in that big chunk of land.

Did Burning Tree try to fight the Walmart?

if it goes through we are going to put a gate up and cut your donkey off so you can forget about that idea.

The walmart at 68th is a different monkey because the site was not directly abutting single family residential.  You have four lanes of street and then additional setbacks separating Wal-mart from burning tree.  Four lanes of interior collector that provide the necessary traffic relief that this proposal does not provide.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by Kashmir

I guess I am a bad person because I am looking forward to cutting through that neighborhood from my (smaller, less expensive)neighborhood to get to Super Target.

if it goes through we are going to put a gate up and cut your donkey off so you can forget about that idea.

Illegally blocking a public thoroughfare, that should work out well for you.

[Kashmir]

I would not live close to Memorial myself if I didn't like living close to retail developments...life...people

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by Kashmir


I would not live close to Memorial myself if I didn't like living close to retail developments...life...people

I live close to memorial for retail too.  The RIGHT kind of retail.  I suppose you never saw the site plan for South Towne Square.  Because if you had you'd be pissed about the new proposal.  It is a cop out, taking the easy road.

If STS was built as proposed, you'd have a future Tulsa landmark on your hands.  People would say Utica Square and STS in the same sentence.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by Kashmir

But I wouldn't want the bright lots of Target shining in my backyard.

A July 2001 article for the trade magazine "Shopping Center World":

"Brighter, whiter and smarter are the keywords for the future of shopping center lighting plans"

Next to that is an ad for Fort Worth-based WLS lighting:

   "Benderson Development, Heritage Realty Food Lion and Target are just a few of the companies that realize brighter parking lots mean more night time sales and help their store or center stand out from the
competition."

Just so you know Target is committed to "Moth-effect Marketing," and that they also stock the thick black curtains you will need to make your bedroom sleepable again at night...

..otherwise, I'd familiarize myself with the Zoning Ordinance covered under Title 42, Section 1303-C, which says:

"Lighting used to illuminate an off-street parking area shall be so arranged as to shield and light away from properties within an R District which do not contain uses for which the parking is being provided.  Shielding of such light shall be designed so as to prevent the light-producing element of the light fixture from being visible to a person standing in an R District."

[inteller]

oh, myself and others have become well versed in City of Tulsa zoning code.  Come Feb 6th the fireworks are gonna fly.

[patric]

Bumgarner wouldnt talk to neighbors with reporters witnessing the meeting.  Delayed the meeting 25 minutes to run them off.  
Not a good sign.


The 7 p.m. meeting was delayed for nearly 25 minutes when the developer objected to media representatives' attendance.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080124_1_A11_hResi87503
Don Bouvier of Direct Development of Dallas, one of the presenters at the meeting, said before it began that he had understood that the discussions would be private. He said the meeting would not take place if the media remained in the room.

Earlier in the day, an attorney for the developer, Lou Reynolds, had asked the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission to continue the public hearing on the case to give the developer an opportunity to provide residents with a more-detailed rendering of the proposal.

Reynolds later shared the time and date of the meeting with at least two reporters.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by patric

Bumgarner wouldnt talk to neighbors with reporters witnessing the meeting.  Delayed the meeting 25 minutes to run them off.  
Not a good sign.


The 7 p.m. meeting was delayed for nearly 25 minutes when the developer objected to media representatives' attendance.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080124_1_A11_hResi87503
Don Bouvier of Direct Development of Dallas, one of the presenters at the meeting, said before it began that he had understood that the discussions would be private. He said the meeting would not take place if the media remained in the room.

Earlier in the day, an attorney for the developer, Lou Reynolds, had asked the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission to continue the public hearing on the case to give the developer an opportunity to provide residents with a more-detailed rendering of the proposal.

Reynolds later shared the time and date of the meeting with at least two reporters.

well, actually it was the turds from Dallas that didn't want their lipstick on a pig plans shown to the public, but they are all scum of the earth.  the actually tried to pull a fast one and get the continuance date pushed up but that didnt fly.

we have some fun things in store for them on the 6th.  I hope Bumgarner likes to party.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by patric

Bumgarner wouldnt talk to neighbors with reporters witnessing the meeting.  Delayed the meeting 25 minutes to run them off.  
Not a good sign.


The 7 p.m. meeting was delayed for nearly 25 minutes when the developer objected to media representatives' attendance.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080124_1_A11_hResi87503
Don Bouvier of Direct Development of Dallas, one of the presenters at the meeting, said before it began that he had understood that the discussions would be private. He said the meeting would not take place if the media remained in the room.

Earlier in the day, an attorney for the developer, Lou Reynolds, had asked the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission to continue the public hearing on the case to give the developer an opportunity to provide residents with a more-detailed rendering of the proposal.

Reynolds later shared the time and date of the meeting with at least two reporters.

well, actually it was the turds from Dallas that didn't want their lipstick on a pig plans shown to the public, but they are all scum of the earth.  the actually tried to pull a fast one and get the continuance date pushed up but that didnt fly.

we have some fun things in store for them on the 6th.  I hope Bumgarner likes to party.

oooohhhh we like parties...what do you have in store?!!

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by patric

Bumgarner wouldnt talk to neighbors with reporters witnessing the meeting.  Delayed the meeting 25 minutes to run them off.  
Not a good sign.


The 7 p.m. meeting was delayed for nearly 25 minutes when the developer objected to media representatives' attendance.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080124_1_A11_hResi87503
Don Bouvier of Direct Development of Dallas, one of the presenters at the meeting, said before it began that he had understood that the discussions would be private. He said the meeting would not take place if the media remained in the room.

Earlier in the day, an attorney for the developer, Lou Reynolds, had asked the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission to continue the public hearing on the case to give the developer an opportunity to provide residents with a more-detailed rendering of the proposal.

Reynolds later shared the time and date of the meeting with at least two reporters.

well, actually it was the turds from Dallas that didn't want their lipstick on a pig plans shown to the public, but they are all scum of the earth.  the actually tried to pull a fast one and get the continuance date pushed up but that didnt fly.

we have some fun things in store for them on the 6th.  I hope Bumgarner likes to party.

oooohhhh we like parties...what do you have in store?!!

its a SURPRISE party.  can't give anything away.

[booWorld]

Does the PUD show commercial development substantially different from what the Super Target now being proposed?

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

Does the PUD show commercial development substantially different from what the Super Target now being proposed?

yes.  

the major amendments they want are:

a bigger building footprint

a taller building

a building set back much closer to the residential area than allowed.

much more parking than previously allowed.

and there is a litany of minor amendments tht are small fries compared to this.

just remember, if they allow this in our neighborhood, when will they do it to you?

[booWorld]

They've already "done" it to my property.  Not in terms of commercial development, but in terms of changing the rules of allowed densities in my residential neighborhood.  I wasn't pleased with the outcome, but the unfair process is what I found deplorable and shameful.  It certainly was an eye-opener.

Best of luck with your surprise party.  If nothing else, take lots of recording devices to any and all meetings.  I've found the TMAPC equipment to malfunction at critical moments with "inaudible" recorded into the office meeting minutes.

I was looking for an online link to PUD-411 or PUD-411C or whatever.  I couldn't find anything.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

They've already "done" it to my property.  Not in terms of commercial development, but in terms of changing the rules of allowed densities in my residential neighborhood.  I wasn't pleased with the outcome, but the unfair process is what I found deplorable and shameful.  It certainly was an eye-opener.

Best of luck with your surprise party.  If nothing else, take lots of recording devices to any and all meetings.  I've found the TMAPC equipment to malfunction at critical moments with "inaudible" recorded into the office meeting minutes.

I was looking for an online link to PUD-411 or PUD-411C or whatever.  I couldn't find anything.

if you would please, send an email to your district councilor and tell them about this development and ask them when neighborhoods are going to get some rights back.

If you have a neighborhood advocacy group in your area, let them know about this too.  We need their support at the meetings.