Downtown Stadium Plan by May 30th

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace
Two things I think OKC missed out on with their ball park that I hope we don't replicate.
1. Why all that open concrete in front of it? Is that for street vendors on game day? gathering of citizenry? Why can't the ball park back right up to the street?
2. There is room underneath a ball park for retail. Rental space could help pay for upkeep and maybe even pay off construction costs sooner.

That's a great idea, cp... It's got the wheels in my mind turning.  Call the Mayor's office and suggest it!

Restaurants and storefronts abutting the street with the stands over them.. The only issue would be where the ticket office is located.  Get the tenants, get the revenue!

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by Floyd
 Is it fiscally conservative to allow these billions to go to waste?  No.

it wasn't fiscally conservative to spend the billions in the first place so don't give me that line.

I think he's talking about the billions invested in the downtown core, i.e., all of those tall buildings.

And therefore, of course it made fiscal sense to build them when they were built...they were privately funded.  I think downtown still has a purpose.  I think that businesses still need to interact, and that face-to-face meetings are critical.  But even if you think that downtown is a dinosaur built upon an outdated business model, it's stupid to walk away from it.  There are billions of public and private dollars tied up in that square mile, even today.  All the highways lead there...all the trains, too.  Only an idiot would turn their back on all of that investment and not try to seek alternative uses.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Great post FLoyd

Two things I think OKC missed out on with their ball park that I hope we don't replicate.
1. Why all that open concrete in front of it? Is that for street vendors on game day? gathering of citizenry? Why can't the ball park back right up to the street?
2. There is room underneath a ball park for retail. Rental space could help pay for upkeep and maybe even pay off construction costs sooner.

Well, I don't think anybody involved wanted to let the ballpark in OKC steal Bricktown's thunder by having retail stores as part of the park itself.  The last time I went down there, I didn't notice the stadium as being very far away from the street at all.  The space in front is pretty standard (no different than Wrigley Field in that respect), so that any pregame/postgame stuff doesn't spill out into or across the street...  

The big question is how many fans would walk a few blocks from the new ballpark at 4th and Elgin to the Blue Dome area... in contrast, Bricktown is right next to the stadium, a very convenient walk... so unless there's some attractive mixed use "infill," I don't see baseball/whatever fans actually walking down a couple of blocks of dark streets to get to McNellie's or Tsunami's... if you don't know the area, you could walk the wrong way and end up at the Greyhound station along with the panhandlers... it'd be easier to just get on the highway and drive straight home...  

I mean, where's the other development?  Where's the link?... we haven't heard much from the Tulsa Landing people the past few weeks on prospects for the west bank of the river... maybe they should be involved in the east end/east village instead... hint, hint...

BTW, Floyd, why all the animosity towards Jenks?  Saying they are sucking the life out of Tulsa is not only careless, but tells me you are no better than the "suburban" crowd you criticize...

Since moving here last year, one of my pet peeves is how Tulsans can be so needlessly territorial, and can be so petty about it..... in a city where it typically can take less than 15 mins to drive from Jenks or Broken Arrow to get downtown, it just doesn't make much sense.  Sorry, but IMHO, most of midtown looks no different than many other cities' older suburbs.  

Downtown has a perception problem that it's dominated by crime/panhandlers and traffic and pay parking....  My criticism of downtown is that it has tiny, isolated pockets of activity and is no more walkable than any other part of Tulsa... the east end/east village needs walkable links to the Blue Dome and Brady, not a ballpark as an isolated, self-enclosed shopping mall...

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

My instincts tell me that this has a decent chance of happening. One snag I can see may be the, " I hate downtown crowd joining up with the No Taxes of any sort crowd, combining and saying we can get a ballpark for free in Jenks" people spoiling any possible hotel tax increase if that has to be voted on. Though Tulsans per say wont be paying that hotel tax, the nay sayers wont care and will scream their lines of protest quite loudly.

WE CAN GET A BALL PARK FOR FREE IN JENKS.  

And what exactly is wrong with that?  Why is it worse to have private enterprise pay for things?  Better then the 'taxpayers buy everything we don't need crowd' believing the government is the cure to all our ills.  Now the government is the cure to all our baseball needs as well.

But remember, the city is broke (how many times have we heard that lately) but we got a new city hall.  Now we need a baseball stadium.  Plus we'll be voting on new streets right after we vote on countless other projects because the city can't seem to figure out what we need.

Great priorities.

Knock knock.  Who's there?

A QUARTER OF A BILLION DOLLAR SUBSIDY.

The Jenks river development is made possible by a $282 million TIF.  Now, what were you saying about private enterprise?

These things don't happen without public help.  If you don't care whether they happen or not, then butt out.  I like baseball.  I like urban areas.  I like them together.  

Further, there's no "we."  I will reiterate that the suburbs, Jenks specifically, are sucking life out of the city core.  This is fueled by specific enmity from suburbanites toward the city core they left behind.  If you don't think this phenomenon exists, just go visit the Tulsa World's website and see all the disparaging comments left by citizens of Jenks, Bixby, Sapulpa, and Owasso towards this stadium idea.  It's none of their business, either, but they appear to believe they have a vested interest in kicking the city while it's down.  Apparently a crappy inner city validates their bland, "safe," suburban existence.

Finally, every time these city-hating suburbanites snag another attraction from the city core, it costs the city in terms of population loss, tax loss, and quality of life.  The worse the quality of life in the city center, the more people and jobs leave.  

A vital core is imperative for a healthy city.  A baseball stadium has been shown over and over to contribute to the vitality of downtowns.  Say what you will about other options, but a new ballpark is a relatively small investment and is always a home run.

It's going to cost less than the new city hall and bring hundreds of thousands of people to the center of town, a center in which the municipality has invested billions.  Is it fiscally conservative to allow these billions to go to waste?  No.

Ditto. I agree with you 100%. Why would anyone pro-Tulsa be for loosing their baseball stadium?  The next thing you know Jenks will have a superior river development to Tulsa. Oh, that's already happened.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Great post FLoyd

Two things I think OKC missed out on with their ball park that I hope we don't replicate.
1. Why all that open concrete in front of it? Is that for street vendors on game day? gathering of citizenry? Why can't the ball park back right up to the street?
2. There is room underneath a ball park for retail. Rental space could help pay for upkeep and maybe even pay off construction costs sooner.

Well, I don't think anybody involved wanted to let the ballpark in OKC steal Bricktown's thunder by having retail stores as part of the park itself.  The last time I went down there, I didn't notice the stadium as being very far away from the street at all.  The space in front is pretty standard (no different than Wrigley Field in that respect), so that any pregame/postgame stuff doesn't spill out into or across the street...  

The big question is how many fans would walk a few blocks from the new ballpark at 4th and Elgin to the Blue Dome area... in contrast, Bricktown is right next to the stadium, a very convenient walk... so unless there's some attractive mixed use "infill," I don't see baseball/whatever fans actually walking down a couple of blocks of dark streets to get to McNellie's or Tsunami's... if you don't know the area, you could walk the wrong way and end up at the Greyhound station along with the panhandlers... it'd be easier to just get on the highway and drive straight home...  

I mean, where's the other development?  Where's the link?... we haven't heard much from the Tulsa Landing people the past few weeks on prospects for the west bank of the river... maybe they should be involved in the east end/east village instead... hint, hint...

BTW, Floyd, why all the animosity towards Jenks?  Saying they are sucking the life out of Tulsa is not only careless, but tells me you are no better than the "suburban" crowd you criticize...

Since moving here last year, one of my pet peeves is how Tulsans can be so needlessly territorial, and can be so petty about it..... in a city where it typically can take less than 15 mins to drive from Jenks or Broken Arrow to get downtown, it just doesn't make much sense.  Sorry, but IMHO, most of midtown looks no different than many other cities' older suburbs.  

Downtown has a perception problem that it's dominated by crime/panhandlers and traffic and pay parking....  My criticism of downtown is that it has tiny, isolated pockets of activity and is no more walkable than any other part of Tulsa... the east end/east village needs walkable links to the Blue Dome and Brady, not a ballpark as an isolated, self-enclosed shopping mall...

First, on your substantive question regarding infill. . . I completely agree.  I am really hoping a large-scale private development is publicly added to this project in the coming months.  I have a feeling there will be, and it will provide the kind of devlopment we're hoping for.  In the best case, it would provide an opportunity to use a TIF to fund stadium construction.

As for what you call my animosity towards Jenks . . . it is nothing more than a reaction towards attitudes towards Tulsa proper that I perceive coming from the suburbs.  Since you're relatively new to Tulsa, let me give you a brief history lesson on suburban Tulsa:  They are areas that originally grew because Tulsans fled racial integration in the public schools.  Tulsa Public Schools enrollment dropped by 50% in the years since 1973, when the 10th Circuit ordered integration.  That is fact.  Hence the extension of the Union and Jenks school districts into Tulsa proper.  This is not an Oak Park or Evanston situation.  This is pure white flight.  And it was fueled by cheap land, on which cheap houses were built in sprawling subdivisions.  In order to justify their existence, suburbanites tend to greatly exaggerate the decline of the city, including crime rates, street conditions, and school success.

So - when you read my tirades against sprawl, you're seeing my reaction against ignorant attitudes and the businessmen who take advantage of them to make money at the expense of growth within city limits.  I have an emotional attachment to the core of the city, because it's where I went to church and rode my bike as a child, and it's still where my friends and the people I love are.  The glee with which those in the suburbs cheer on fringe development while poo-pooing anything good for Tulsa development is ridiculous.  And so sometimes I ridicule.

Still, when I see massive commercial development outside the city limits, it doesn't really bother me because it has nothing to do with me.  I'd rather see the sales tax proceeds go to Tulsa, but whatever.  The River District isn't going to ruin Utica Square.  But when I see the minor league baseball team whose openers I never missed as a child and whose bleachers I scaled as a teen pitching peanuts and starting the wave being yanked out of Tulsa towards those same areas by people who spurned Tulsa originally and seek to profit by luring city institutions outside the city . . . when I see this happen, it makes my blood boil.

It comes down to this: I don't want to see my city gutted by its suburbs.  Sometimes this makes me use harsher words than I should.  I hope that answers your question.

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd
First, on your substantive question regarding infill. . . I completely agree.  I am really hoping a large-scale private development is publicly added to this project in the coming months.  I have a feeling there will be, and it will provide the kind of devlopment we're hoping for.  In the best case, it would provide an opportunity to use a TIF to fund stadium construction.

As for what you call my animosity towards Jenks . . . it is nothing more than a reaction towards attitudes towards Tulsa proper that I perceive coming from the suburbs.  Since you're relatively new to Tulsa, let me give you a brief history lesson on suburban Tulsa:  They are areas that originally grew because Tulsans fled racial integration in the public schools.  Tulsa Public Schools enrollment dropped by 50% in the years since 1973, when the 10th Circuit ordered integration.  That is fact.  Hence the extension of the Union and Jenks school districts into Tulsa proper.  This is not an Oak Park or Evanston situation.  This is pure white flight.  And it was fueled by cheap land, on which cheap houses were built in sprawling subdivisions.  In order to justify their existence, suburbanites tend to greatly exaggerate the decline of the city, including crime rates, street conditions, and school success.

So - when you read my tirades against sprawl, you're seeing my reaction against ignorant attitudes and the businessmen who take advantage of them to make money, to the clear detriment of the city I grew up in.  I have an emotional attachment to the core of the city, because it's where I went to church and rode my bike as a child, and it's still where my friends and the people I love are.  The glee with which those in the suburbs cheer on fringe development while poo-pooing anything good for Tulsa development is ridiculous.  And so sometimes I ridicule.

Still, when I see massive commercial development outside the city limits, it doesn't really bother me because it has nothing to do with me.  I'd rather see the sales tax proceeds go to Tulsa, but whatever.  The River District isn't going to ruin Utica Square.  But when I see the minor league baseball team whose openers I never missed as a child and whose bleachers I scaled as a teen pitching peanuts and starting the wave being yanked out of Tulsa towards those same areas by people who spurned Tulsa originally and seek to profit by luring city institutions outside the city . . . when I see this happen, it makes my blood boil.

It comes down to this: I don't want to see my city gutted by its suburbs.  Sometimes this makes me use harsher words than I should.  I hope that answers your question.

Well, said.  I second it.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Great post FLoyd

Two things I think OKC missed out on with their ball park that I hope we don't replicate.
1. Why all that open concrete in front of it? Is that for street vendors on game day? gathering of citizenry? Why can't the ball park back right up to the street?
2. There is room underneath a ball park for retail. Rental space could help pay for upkeep and maybe even pay off construction costs sooner.

Well, I don't think anybody involved wanted to let the ballpark in OKC steal Bricktown's thunder by having retail stores as part of the park itself.  The last time I went down there, I didn't notice the stadium as being very far away from the street at all.  The space in front is pretty standard (no different than Wrigley Field in that respect), so that any pregame/postgame stuff doesn't spill out into or across the street...  

The big question is how many fans would walk a few blocks from the new ballpark at 4th and Elgin to the Blue Dome area... in contrast, Bricktown is right next to the stadium, a very convenient walk... so unless there's some attractive mixed use "infill," I don't see baseball/whatever fans actually walking down a couple of blocks of dark streets to get to McNellie's or Tsunami's... if you don't know the area, you could walk the wrong way and end up at the Greyhound station along with the panhandlers... it'd be easier to just get on the highway and drive straight home...  

I mean, where's the other development?  Where's the link?... we haven't heard much from the Tulsa Landing people the past few weeks on prospects for the west bank of the river... maybe they should be involved in the east end/east village instead... hint, hint...

BTW, Floyd, why all the animosity towards Jenks?  Saying they are sucking the life out of Tulsa is not only careless, but tells me you are no better than the "suburban" crowd you criticize...

Since moving here last year, one of my pet peeves is how Tulsans can be so needlessly territorial, and can be so petty about it..... in a city where it typically can take less than 15 mins to drive from Jenks or Broken Arrow to get downtown, it just doesn't make much sense.  Sorry, but IMHO, most of midtown looks no different than many other cities' older suburbs.  

Downtown has a perception problem that it's dominated by crime/panhandlers and traffic and pay parking....  My criticism of downtown is that it has tiny, isolated pockets of activity and is no more walkable than any other part of Tulsa... the east end/east village needs walkable links to the Blue Dome and Brady, not a ballpark as an isolated, self-enclosed shopping mall...

First, on your substantive question regarding infill. . . I completely agree.  I am really hoping a large-scale private development is publicly added to this project in the coming months.  I have a feeling there will be, and it will provide the kind of devlopment we're hoping for.  In the best case, it would provide an opportunity to use a TIF to fund stadium construction.

As for what you call my animosity towards Jenks . . . it is nothing more than a reaction towards attitudes towards Tulsa proper that I perceive coming from the suburbs.  Since you're relatively new to Tulsa, let me give you a brief history lesson on suburban Tulsa:  They are areas that originally grew because Tulsans fled racial integration in the public schools.  Tulsa Public Schools enrollment dropped by 50% in the years since 1973, when the 10th Circuit ordered integration.  That is fact.  Hence the extension of the Union and Jenks school districts into Tulsa proper.  This is not an Oak Park or Evanston situation.  This is pure white flight.  And it was fueled by cheap land, on which cheap houses were built in sprawling subdivisions.  In order to justify their existence, suburbanites tend to greatly exaggerate the decline of the city, including crime rates, street conditions, and school success.

So - when you read my tirades against sprawl, you're seeing my reaction against ignorant attitudes and the businessmen who take advantage of them to make money at the expense of growth within city limits.  I have an emotional attachment to the core of the city, because it's where I went to church and rode my bike as a child, and it's still where my friends and the people I love are.  The glee with which those in the suburbs cheer on fringe development while poo-pooing anything good for Tulsa development is ridiculous.  And so sometimes I ridicule.

Still, when I see massive commercial development outside the city limits, it doesn't really bother me because it has nothing to do with me.  I'd rather see the sales tax proceeds go to Tulsa, but whatever.  The River District isn't going to ruin Utica Square.  But when I see the minor league baseball team whose openers I never missed as a child and whose bleachers I scaled as a teen pitching peanuts and starting the wave being yanked out of Tulsa towards those same areas by people who spurned Tulsa originally and seek to profit by luring city institutions outside the city . . . when I see this happen, it makes my blood boil.

It comes down to this: I don't want to see my city gutted by its suburbs.  Sometimes this makes me use harsher words than I should.  I hope that answers your question.

I agree Floyd, even though my feelings for the Drillers are not as fervent as yours I don't like seeing the city gutted to justify suburbans lifestyle. They have it fine out there and they don't need to raid the antique store to furnish their lifestyle any further. And your history lesson matches well with my memory of that time period. The suburbs of Tulsa were fueled by white flight, cheap land and believe it or not...a clogged downtown. Parking was hard to find and expensive in the 50's to 70's.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Great post FLoyd

Two things I think OKC missed out on with their ball park that I hope we don't replicate.
1. Why all that open concrete in front of it? Is that for street vendors on game day? gathering of citizenry? Why can't the ball park back right up to the street?
2. There is room underneath a ball park for retail. Rental space could help pay for upkeep and maybe even pay off construction costs sooner.

Well, I don't think anybody involved wanted to let the ballpark in OKC steal Bricktown's thunder by having retail stores as part of the park itself.  The last time I went down there, I didn't notice the stadium as being very far away from the street at all.  The space in front is pretty standard (no different than Wrigley Field in that respect), so that any pregame/postgame stuff doesn't spill out into or across the street...  

The big question is how many fans would walk a few blocks from the new ballpark at 4th and Elgin to the Blue Dome area... in contrast, Bricktown is right next to the stadium, a very convenient walk... so unless there's some attractive mixed use "infill," I don't see baseball/whatever fans actually walking down a couple of blocks of dark streets to get to McNellie's or Tsunami's... if you don't know the area, you could walk the wrong way and end up at the Greyhound station along with the panhandlers... it'd be easier to just get on the highway and drive straight home...  

I mean, where's the other development?  Where's the link?... we haven't heard much from the Tulsa Landing people the past few weeks on prospects for the west bank of the river... maybe they should be involved in the east end/east village instead... hint, hint...

BTW, Floyd, why all the animosity towards Jenks?  Saying they are sucking the life out of Tulsa is not only careless, but tells me you are no better than the "suburban" crowd you criticize...

Since moving here last year, one of my pet peeves is how Tulsans can be so needlessly territorial, and can be so petty about it..... in a city where it typically can take less than 15 mins to drive from Jenks or Broken Arrow to get downtown, it just doesn't make much sense.  Sorry, but IMHO, most of midtown looks no different than many other cities' older suburbs.  

Downtown has a perception problem that it's dominated by crime/panhandlers and traffic and pay parking....  My criticism of downtown is that it has tiny, isolated pockets of activity and is no more walkable than any other part of Tulsa... the east end/east village needs walkable links to the Blue Dome and Brady, not a ballpark as an isolated, self-enclosed shopping mall...

First, on your substantive question regarding infill. . . I completely agree.  I am really hoping a large-scale private development is publicly added to this project in the coming months.  I have a feeling there will be, and it will provide the kind of devlopment we're hoping for.  In the best case, it would provide an opportunity to use a TIF to fund stadium construction.

As for what you call my animosity towards Jenks . . . it is nothing more than a reaction towards attitudes towards Tulsa proper that I perceive coming from the suburbs.  Since you're relatively new to Tulsa, let me give you a brief history lesson on suburban Tulsa:  They are areas that originally grew because Tulsans fled racial integration in the public schools.  Tulsa Public Schools enrollment dropped by 50% in the years since 1973, when the 10th Circuit ordered integration.  That is fact.  Hence the extension of the Union and Jenks school districts into Tulsa proper.  This is not an Oak Park or Evanston situation.  This is pure white flight.  And it was fueled by cheap land, on which cheap houses were built in sprawling subdivisions.  In order to justify their existence, suburbanites tend to greatly exaggerate the decline of the city, including crime rates, street conditions, and school success.

So - when you read my tirades against sprawl, you're seeing my reaction against ignorant attitudes and the businessmen who take advantage of them to make money at the expense of growth within city limits.  I have an emotional attachment to the core of the city, because it's where I went to church and rode my bike as a child, and it's still where my friends and the people I love are.  The glee with which those in the suburbs cheer on fringe development while poo-pooing anything good for Tulsa development is ridiculous.  And so sometimes I ridicule.

Still, when I see massive commercial development outside the city limits, it doesn't really bother me because it has nothing to do with me.  I'd rather see the sales tax proceeds go to Tulsa, but whatever.  The River District isn't going to ruin Utica Square.  But when I see the minor league baseball team whose openers I never missed as a child and whose bleachers I scaled as a teen pitching peanuts and starting the wave being yanked out of Tulsa towards those same areas by people who spurned Tulsa originally and seek to profit by luring city institutions outside the city . . . when I see this happen, it makes my blood boil.

It comes down to this: I don't want to see my city gutted by its suburbs.  Sometimes this makes me use harsher words than I should.  I hope that answers your question.

I don't see any reason for animosity. You are upset over Jenks luring the Drillers? The Drillers have needed and wanted a new stadium for more than a decade. The Drillers had a downtown stadium as part of the "Tulsa Time" vote that failed, they wanted to be part of 2025 and were turned down. Most recently the Drillers and Global were going to do a deal for a downtown stadium but didn't get backing from the city, the city wanted a damn Super Wal-Mart instead. Another developer offered to do a stadium on the river at 21st, but the voters rejected the river tax that would have made that possible too.

You are blaming Jenks for offering what the Drillers want when Tulsa has failed to step up over and over and do the same? There's still no real plan in Tulsa for a stadium, how is that Jenks' fault? If anything, the only reason that Tulsa is even trying to do anything is Jenks.

Tulsa has had decades to do the river but never has. Tulsa flat out rejected the aquarium. Jenks is building attractions that make the entire metro better and more attractive. In all cases they are attractions that Tulsa has rejected. How is that Jenks' fault? The Aquarium that Tulsa didn't want, River Development that Tulsa the voters rejected, and now a new stadium for the Drillers that Tulsa has failed over and over to build, that I predict will fail to again.

Your anger is misdirected here.  

[Renaissance]

I'm an urban partisan.  So sue me.

From my point of view, it has always been understood that the Drillers would end up downtown.  The current stadium is perfectly serviceable and not falling apart.  Eventually it would need replacing, and downtown was where Lamson always intended the club to end up.  But then here comes Lynn Mitchell and company, touting castle-in-the-sand fake downtowns, and trying to disrupt what I saw as the inevitable move downtown in order to make money.  

EDIT: I re-read my remarks, decided some were too inflammatory/rude, and removed them. Jenks seems like a lovely place, just not for the baseball teams.

[RecycleMichael]

The Drillers have made their home in Tulsa for over a hundred years. We are their home and moving out of Tulsa, no matter how close, would be moving away from home.

When the Drillers score a run and cross the plate, I want that home plate to be in our home, Tulsa.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

I'm an urban partisan.  So sue me.

From my point of view, it has always been understood that the Drillers would end up downtown.  The current stadium is perfectly serviceable and not falling apart.  Eventually it would need replacing, and downtown was where Lamson always intended the club to end up.  But then here comes Lynn Mitchell and company, touting castle-in-the-sand fake downtowns, and trying to disrupt what I saw as the inevitable move downtown in order to make money.  

EDIT: I re-read my remarks, decided some were too inflammatory/rude, and removed them. Jenks seems like a lovely place, just not for the baseball teams.

I hardly know it's "inevitable", you would think that if it was so inevitable there would not be multiple failed votes to build a downtown stadium and a long track record showing a lack of support from the city of Tulsa for the Drillers to be downtown.  

And while I want the Drillers downtown if I was going to bet $50 I'm still betting on them going to Jenks. And that's a good thing because if it wasn't for Jenks it might just be that the Drillers would end up as the Fayetteville Drillers, just like what happened when we voted no on a new stadium for the AAA Oilers and instead of being satisfied with the status quo at the Fairgrounds they moved on to New Orleans (and now Louisville). Tulsa does seem to have a track record here, and a new baseball stadium being built with public money involved would be way, way against history.

[Wilbur]

Are we naive enough not to believe the Jenks 'deal' was simply used to force the city (Tulsa) to finally take some kind of action, and to ultimately, kick in some cash?  I mean, who signs a non-binding agreement, anyway?

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

As for what you call my animosity towards Jenks . . . it is nothing more than a reaction towards attitudes towards Tulsa proper that I perceive coming from the suburbs.  Since you're relatively new to Tulsa, let me give you a brief history lesson on suburban Tulsa:  They are areas that originally grew because Tulsans fled racial integration in the public schools.  Tulsa Public Schools enrollment dropped by 50% in the years since 1973, when the 10th Circuit ordered integration.  That is fact.  Hence the extension of the Union and Jenks school districts into Tulsa proper.  This is not an Oak Park or Evanston situation.  This is pure white flight.  And it was fueled by cheap land, on which cheap houses were built in sprawling subdivisions.  In order to justify their existence, suburbanites tend to greatly exaggerate the decline of the city, including crime rates, street conditions, and school success.

[edit: reduced/eliminated longwinded rant)

Umm, I grew up here.  In east Tulsa and Owasso.  I don't really need Tulsa history lessons.

My sister and her family live in Broken Arrow.  Is it wrong to want your family, which includes small children, to grow up in a low-crime suburb?  [:O]  

[waterboy]

Why in the h*ll are you coming back? You seem to think we're all hicks or lilly white liberals and just too slow to realize the importance of soccer.  You of course, having spent your youth here, are justified in calling midtowners more racially segregated than lilly white River City? My graduating class was downtown and we had our prom in the Mayo in 1969. So does that mean I can talk about the real Tulsa or is it just too sensitive? Central was the FIRST integrated school in town and the inclusion of Maple Ridge in their district meant that all the families who could afford to, fled to the burbs or sent their kids to private schools rather than send their kids to school with minorities. Didn't read about it, lived it. It didn't just coincide with the growth of Kelley, Holland Hall, Edison, Broken Arrow and Jenks, white flight was the cause. But for heavens sake that's old, old news. Kind of like old Roughnex stories and pics. Dwelling on it isn't necessary but denying or ignoring it is silly.

I have visited the RiverWalk several times and can count on one hand the black couples visiting. Should I then infer that their neighborhoods are averse to brown people like you did Midtown neighborhoods? Rumor is that Jenks found jobs for the parents of one star Hale running back to lure him to play for the mighty Trojans. How does that grab you. BTW, Tony Randall went to Central, that girl who played opposite Tom Cruise in Pelican Brief ...can't remember her name...went to little old Lee smack in the middle of liberal Maple Ridge. Both turned out alright. Those are useless anecdotes don't you think?

Save your considerable slash and burn Chicago temperament for stuff that matters. Like cutting me to pieces or you know, like soccer and bringing these slow wit Tulsans to the new age.

edit: Tell me where you got your belief that Midtown Tulsa is racially divided and to what extent. This one solidly liberal democratic part of midtown I live in couldn't be described that way. It is more economically divided than racial but then I don't need to tell you anything about Tulsa history. I see a pretty wide variety of blacks, browns, yellows, goths, jr. bushies and lilly whites walking to the bus stop and going the lilly white school nearby. Just wondering if you were spouting out your a**hole or you know some bankers who redline or something.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Taken from other thread:

Anyone want to identify the other stuff in this picture (other than the stadium and the PSO area)

Try this City of Tulsa link.  Magnify the pdf for more detail.