Downtown Stadium Plan by May 30th

[MichaelBates]

Jenks and Union didn't expand their school districts into Tulsa. Tulsa, in 1966, expanded its city limits into Jenks, Union, Broken Arrow, and Mingo school districts. (I don't remember whether the East Central school district had already merged into the Tulsa district by then or not.)

As a matter of fact, Tulsa had already expanded into the Union district, which once extended all the way to 21st and Yale, by the mid '50s. During that decade, a big chunk of the Union district -- new city of Tulsa subdivisions -- voted to attach itself to the Tulsa district.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Why in the h*ll are you coming back? You seem to think we're all hicks or lilly white liberals and just too slow to realize the importance of soccer.  You of course, having spent your youth here, are justified in calling midtowners more racially segregated than lilly white River City?

Fine.  I'll delete my previous post and repost here in more concise terms...

Do I think ALL Tulsans are hicks or lilly white liberals?  No.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

FIRST, I am not saying that "midtowners are more racially segregated than lilly white River City".... in fact, I didn't think I implied it....  

I've met midtowners who are very economically  segregated.  And the economic class I am  talking about is largely white.  

You seem to have no problem insisting ALL of Broken Arrow is going to h*ll in a handbasket.  That they're doing everything wrong.  Wishing for their demise.  Insisting that the city of Tulsa show 'em who's boss.  Especially after 2/3's of them voted against the river tax... and that they somehow OWE Tulsa.  For river development that would have trickled down to them...  

This site is at its WORST when folks make blanket assumptions that imply the suburbs are ruining Tulsa.  There's plenty of blame to go around.

As for racism, I want to point out that it exists in midtown, too.  Where in midtown?  Well, I should find the list of midtown zipcodes with their racial makeup... certain zips are more "lilly white" than the much maligned suburban areas of the Union, Jenks and BA.      

I also pointed out that ZERO facilities for pro-sports have been constructed outside of Tulsa.

Yeah, it's the people in Jenks who are out to "steal" the Drillers.  Right.

So WB, bring out your midtown pitchforks and invade Jenks and Bixby and BA... have fun stormin' the castle...

I will point out, as I did in a previous post, that Tulsans are far more territorial than they should be or have a right to be.  And when I say that, I mean NOBODY is blameless... I'll meet somebody at Fox&Hound who wouldn't live north of 51st, or some native-Tulsan from midtown who would never travel south of 51st... the level of condescension is surprising and something I wasn't ready for when I moved back here last year... did I only say territorial?... let me add, territorial AND clique-ish...

I don't like the cliffnotes version of Tulsa's racism and white-flight that determine the good groups in the city and the bad groups in the suburbs, based on where people live in 2008... because it's inaccurate and gives certain people a false sense of moral superiority.

Back to the subject of the stadium, Jenks' process has been much more public and forthcoming (not to mention faster) than Tulsa's...

There are good Tulsans who simply want the best plan for a new ballpark to win, not the one that insists a certain part of town is "owed" something...

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Taken from other thread:

Anyone want to identify the other stuff in this picture (other than the stadium and the PSO area)

Try this City of Tulsa link.  Magnify the pdf for more detail.

That link really helps!!!  Looks like they already thought about the whole retail-facing-the-street thing.  Looks nice...

[waterboy]

I personally dislike BA because I worked there among the business community from 1981 to 1989. Talk about provincialism. They hated Tulsa and anything related to the city. They felt all crime and sin emanated from the big city and they were God's country. Now those people are well entrenched among the city's school board and municipal government.

But I have no general dislike of suburbs and small towns surrounding the city. I currently work in far South Tulsa and Bixby area. Jenks is a lovely little town. Sand Springs shows signs of visionary leadership. When visiting with COC people in Jenks, or watching the suburban representatives during the Channels discussions, the River vote debates and general blathering from their mayors, I sometimes see vestiges of that BA provincialism. Especially in the Jenks area. Vreeland is sometimes hostile and the IVI bridge fiasco stirred ill will between the two areas. Still, if they make the better offer on Drillers and snag them, well fine by me. I know of no one other than a few posts here that express any real animosity towards the burbs. We all have family and friends there and visit for one reason or another. I detect nothing more than a little good natured competitive chest thumping for the most part. For instance the remarks about the Aquarium being dismissed by Tulsans. WE never had a chance to vote on it. A small group of RPA board members thought they had secured support for its placement along the river in Tulsa. At the last minute a board member with a conflict of interest flipped and we lost it by one vote. Hardly a citywide repudiation of river development. Each of the development issues turned down by the city in the last decade had a fatal flaw that naysayers seized on with vengeance. The tired old tirades against crime, government sloth, and taxation are always effective tools here reality notwithstanding.

Of course the burbs want our treasures. Of course they will take them if we repeat such stories or show weakness. And that will cause enmity from those of us who staked our claims in the "crime ridden" (read liberal, diversity laden) inner city. Thus has it ever been so anywhere.

I hope we can get the Drillers or something else similar downtown to make our investment in it start to pay off.

[cannon_fodder]

For whatever it's worth on the side track discussion...

In my midtown neighborhood the house to my left sold for $150,000 (single attorney with 1 BMW), to my right $70,000 (family of 5 with 3 pickups).  Across from me is a single middle aged black woman who lives next to an Indian family, on the other side of her is a retired white couple.  Who live next to a black family.  Down a couple houses they have an Infinity and a Hummer.  Next to the family of 5 on my side the driveway has a new Camero and a Mercedes in it.  The guy next to them owns a tree service company.

What I'm saying is it is a diverse mix of incomes, races, and ages.  I'm fairly confident you can't find a more varied demographic than my neighborhood. Stereotypical Jenks = rich and white.  Stereotypical North = black and poor.  I'd be hard pressed to put a stereo type in my area.

So to whomever said, implied or didn't... I'd have to disagree and assert at least portions of Midtown showcase amazing diversity.

[Renaissance]

Rufnex, obviously my remarks struck a nerve.  Apologies, as far as that goes.  You said you moved here recently and I thought that meant you were new here . . . didn't realize you meant you moved back recently.  That was a brain fart on my part, as the biggest Roughnecks fan in the United States probably hails from Tulsa, OK.  I really didn't want to start a pissing contest here.

And I certainly didn't mean to imply that all suburbanites are racist.  But it is hard to deny that the growth of the suburbs was caused in great part by white flight.  And in my opinion, some residents of the suburbs seek to denigrate the city as a way to justify their suburban residency--the crappier they make the city seem, the more sense it makes to live 20 miles from downtown.  You asked me where my attitude toward the suburbs came from. I said it was a reaction toward what I just described, which you can see in remarks both by private citizens and the mayors of Jenks and Broken Arrow, as well as from my own experience.  

No matter who is to blame for this us/them mentality, it exists.  And I am convinced that it's why Lynn Mitchell wanted to lure the Drillers.  He sensed a business opportunity to take advantage of the dollars of those folks who won't venture all the way down to 15th and Yale.  I guess I can't blame a guy for trying to make a buck, but I will CERTAINLY continue to characterize it as "stealing" the Drillers from Tulsa.  Because the result of the move would be, in effect, to take minor league baseball away from one municipality in the metro and its corresponding demographic, and give it to another municipality and the demographic there.

If you're in favor of the move, you can call it "doing what's best for the metro."

If you're against it, as I am, you'll call it "stealing."  And I'll continue to say Jenks tried to steal the Drillers, because that's how I see it.  Please don't take it personally.  

Footnote: I don't see how the Jenks process was any more out in the open than the Tulsa process is.  Every fact of the River District, from land acquisition to design to negotiation with the team, was hidden from public view until it was ready to unveil.  The Tulsa process, on the other hand, came from a grass roots effort to keep the team in town and resulted in a public period of negotiation.  The part that was secret was in retrospect necessary--the negotiation for the land purchase option had to take place behind closed doors to prevent speculators driving up real estate prices and costing the city more money.

[Renaissance]

Hi Jay Cronley!  Glad to see you reading the forum.  Jump in any time, if you haven't already.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080125_1_A9_spanc18031

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Rufnex, obviously my remarks struck a nerve.  Apologies, as far as that goes.  You said you moved here recently and I thought that meant you were new here . . . didn't realize you meant you moved back recently.  That was a brain fart on my part, as the biggest Roughnecks fan in the United States probably hails from Tulsa, OK.  I really didn't want to start a pissing contest here.

And I certainly didn't mean to imply that all suburbanites are racist.  But it is hard to deny that the growth of the suburbs was caused in great part by white flight.  And in my opinion, some residents of the suburbs seek to denigrate the city as a way to justify their suburban residency--the crappier they make the city seem, the more sense it makes to live 20 miles from downtown.  You asked me where my attitude toward the suburbs came from. I said it was a reaction toward what I just described, which you can see in remarks both by private citizens and the mayors of Jenks and Broken Arrow, as well as from my own experience.  

No matter who is to blame for this us/them mentality, it exists.  And I am convinced that it's why Lynn Mitchell wanted to lure the Drillers.  He sensed a business opportunity to take advantage of the dollars of those folks who won't venture all the way down to 15th and Yale.  I guess I can't blame a guy for trying to make a buck, but I will CERTAINLY continue to characterize it as "stealing" the Drillers from Tulsa.  Because the result of the move would be, in effect, to take minor league baseball away from one municipality in the metro and its corresponding demographic, and give it to another municipality and the demographic there.

If you're in favor of the move, you can call it "doing what's best for the metro."

If you're against it, as I am, you'll call it "stealing."  And I'll continue to say Jenks tried to steal the Drillers, because that's how I see it.  Please don't take it personally.  

Footnote: I don't see how the Jenks process was any more out in the open than the Tulsa process is.  Every fact of the River District, from land acquisition to design to negotiation with the team, was hidden from public view until it was ready to unveil.  The Tulsa process, on the other hand, came from a grass roots effort to keep the team in town and resulted in a public period of negotiation.  The part that was secret was in retrospect necessary--the negotiation for the land purchase option had to take place behind closed doors to prevent speculators driving up real estate prices and costing the city more money.

Well, the current location is not in the municipality of the city of Tulsa either, it's across the street from the City of Tulsa, and the location in Jenks is only slightly further being across the river.

[Renaissance]

Sorry.  The argument that the stadium is not in Tulsa because it's on county land is pure silliness.  The only people making it are you and Roscoe Turner.  Silly, I say!

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Sorry.  The argument that the stadium is not in Tulsa because it's on county land is pure silliness.  The only people making it are you and Roscoe Turner.  Silly, I say!

The land is not just county land, it's a non-annexed area of the county. It's not silly, it's the legal truth.

The city of Tulsa does not collect sales tax in Driller Stadium, does that sound like it's "in" the city?

[TulsaSooner]

It will be officially annexed and sales tax will be collected (except for the Arabian horse show) beginning January 1, 2009.

[USRufnex]

Pretty Pictures of Proposed Tulsa Stadiums... anybody want to guess which is which?!?

(Edit: to match sgrizzle's post below, swapped pics B & C, since the letters were previously on the bottom left-hand side of each picture... now each letter is above the pic)

A)





B)





C)





D)





E)





F)

[Composer]

This forum is great because it allows people to debate their ideas and opinions back and forth.  

I am from Broken Arrow and there has been some talk about Broken Arrow on this thread.  I am here to say that I was happy when the Driller's decided to stay in Tulsa.  People can go on and on about how suburbs are stealing shoppers from the cities but in the end, people really do not want to drive a long ways away anymore to shop.  When it comes to entertainment like baseball, that should NEVER leave the city.  I would hate if they announced a move to Jenks or Broken Arrow.  While I love living in Broken Arrow, I would much rather see the Drillers in Tulsa.

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by Composer

This forum is great because it allows people to debate their ideas and opinions back and forth.  

I am from Broken Arrow and there has been some talk about Broken Arrow on this thread.  I am here to say that I was happy when the Driller's decided to stay in Tulsa.  People can go on and on about how suburbs are stealing shoppers from the cities but in the end, people really do not want to drive a long ways away anymore to shop.  When it comes to entertainment like baseball, that should NEVER leave the city.  I would hate if they announced a move to Jenks or Broken Arrow.  While I love living in Broken Arrow, I would much rather see the Drillers in Tulsa.

Composer, welcome to the forum. Thanks for a thoughtful first post. The city and its neighbors the suburbs are in this together. What is good for the core is good for the burbs and vice versa.

[Composer]

Thank you!