Downtown Revitalization = Socialism

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

If socialism is "bad" and capitalism is "good;"
And if capitalism is an American value;
And if our great American Values are good;
And baseball, hotdogs, apple pie and Chevrolet represent our great American Values;
And if you plan to drive your Chevy downtown to watch the Drillers and eat a hotdog, followed by a slice of apple pie at a local dining establishment...
Then building the stadium reinforces our great American Values;
Ergo: Building the stadium is not socialism.
Ergo: Building the stadium is good.

Socrates says: "If you build it, they will come!  Let's do it Tulsa!"

That is an awe-inspiring theorem right there.

Awe!  We is such a cute little thinker!  Yes we are!

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

If socialism is "bad" and capitalism is "good;"
And if capitalism is an American value;
And if our great American Values are good;
And baseball, hotdogs, apple pie and Chevrolet represent our great American Values;
And if you plan to drive your Chevy downtown to watch the Drillers and eat a hotdog, followed by a slice of apple pie at a local dining establishment...
Then building the stadium reinforces our great American Values;
Ergo: Building the stadium is not socialism.
Ergo: Building the stadium is good.

Socrates says: "If you build it, they will come!  Let's do it Tulsa!"

Q.E.D.

[USRufnex]

QED???

hmmm.

Texas League =

Tulsa, OK... Springfield, MO... Springdale, AR... Little Rock, AR... Frisco, TX... Midland, TX... Corpus Christi, TX.... San Antonio, TX....

"Field of Dreams" was a good movie back in the 80s... but the voice in the cornfield didn't tell Kevin Costner to propose a hotel tax to "built it"... or a TIF, for that matter...

If you build it, who will pay???  

While I think the premise, "Downtown Revitalization = Socialism" to be kinda silly... my opinion, pure and simple, is:

Downtown Revitalization = "Special Rights"

http://ab417.org/items/index.php?itemid=36

[RecycleMichael]

Special rights...

Like building a performance arts center. If Tulsa is willing to build a PAC for ballet, then why wouldn't it be willing to build one for baseball? Do opera concerts count more than outdoor concerts? Do the arts have special rights that the sports do not?

This stadium is also planned for one of the most under-performing parcels of property in our community. No one works there and no one stays there. Yet if redeveloped well, it will spur new jobs, new apartments/hotels, and new life.

This location can be a great magnet. Home plate is almost exactly 500 steps from Archer and Greenwood. Call it the Greenwood Stadium as a tribute to it's importance to our history.

It is within easy walking distance of Blue Dome, Central Center at Centennial Park, and the Home Depot/Gunboat Park area. All three of these have been about the only success stories in downtown the last few years. The surface parking it eats up will spur at least one new structured parking garage.  

This new stadium has more potential on that site than the arena does on theirs. It won't require any messy public spats like the Denver Diner did. It can tie to our history, both as a tribute as a community and celebration of America's pasttime. And it builds on the recent success of it's neighbors.

Save Tulsa baseball and save Tulsa's downtown together.

[USRufnex]

Yes, "special rights," RM... downtown activists are a minority group.... minor league baseball fans are a minority group in Tulsa... pro soccer fans in the area are also a minority...

Membership has its priviledges.  Downtown has benefitted for decades... sorry a suburb or two has started to turn the table on all those proposed downtown-only projects over the years that many Tulsans get sick of hearing about and have continuously voted down until finally passing the funds for the new arena...

It's simple.

You like it, vote for it.  And for the hotel taxes it will take to build it.  You no like-ee, vote agin' it.

A performing arts center is used for both ballet and opera.... oh, and symphony concerts..... and broadway musicals... and for comedians' and children's shows and many other sorts of concerts appropriate for that space.

Public taxes can be used for public facilities; some people do NOT support taxes used for anything other than "infrastructure"... some won't even support that.

I venture to say that if the River Tax had passed, it would have had a far more beneficial effect to the City of Tulsa than a baseball park... or soccer stadium...

When former Mayor LaFortune showed "due diligence" in pursuing the opportunities Tulsa had to host a Major League Soccer team back when he was elected in 2002, a 22k stadium was on the list for Vision2025-- one of those stadiums like Pizza Hut Park in Frisco, TX that had a stage on one end and could be used for high school football games, etc..... but, IMHO, its opponents got the upper hand by referring to it as a "soccer-only" facility while a higher priced indoor arena could be used for ice hockey, arena football, concerts.... etc.

So, now we will vote on a taxpayer funded "baseball-only" facility that its proponents think will magically transform downtown.  And I figure if the powers that be start running behind in the polls, this "magic ballpark" will be touted for all sorts of uses... concerts and... even for a new pro soccer team... not unlike the cheap last minute ploy used by the river folks the week before the River tax vote (Tulsa Landing 22k "multi-use" stadium sound familiar?)

Its location looks good; in fact, I wish the arena had been built there... I'm glad the Drillers didn't have to do a political compromise and go for a site outside OSU-Tulsa or west of the river between two oil refinieries...

That said, may the best plan win.

A TIF district for mixed-use development including a stadium as "anchor tenant" is one thing.  A hotel tax for a stand-alone ballpark is... well... you fill in the blank...

[TheArtist]

Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Special rights...

Like building a performance arts center. If Tulsa is willing to build a PAC for ballet, then why wouldn't it be willing to build one for baseball? Do opera concerts count more than outdoor concerts? Do the arts have special rights that the sports do not?...

Yes the "theater,opera,symphony,ballet, concerts,lectures, etc." do count more and yes they have special rights that baseball does not.

I am in support of the baseball stadium. But lets not forget the proper place and priorities of things. []

And btw, wasn't the PAC built with private donations?

[Rico]

^

If this "Hotel Motel Tax" is presented to the voters...properly

I see no problem at all with it passing.

It would be a silent ,if there is such a thing?, campaign.
The Hotels guests..i.e. arena and convention goer's that would foot the bill..

Can we keep Billy LaFortunate out of this? He is busy with much larger things....

"Ain't that right Lamar....?"[}:)]

[USRufnex]

Why not mention LaFortune?

If LaFortune had proposed the EXACT same thing with a TIF and mixed-use development....

the very same dems who currently support the ballpark as some miraculous plan that will invigorate downtown Tulsa....... would be agin' it..... cronyism!  Oh, the horror.

But enjoy Mayor Kathy "Window Dressing" Taylor's answers to Tulsa problems... which now includes a stand-alone ballpark built entirely by taxes...

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
And btw, wasn't the PAC built with private donations?

Nope. Built with bonds passed by a 1973 vote of the people.

John Williams and Leta Chapman said that if the voters would vote yes, they would match half the money with private donations.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Why not mention LaFortune?

If LaFortune had proposed the EXACT same thing with a TIF and mixed-use development....

the very same dems who currently support the ballpark as some miraculous plan that will invigorate downtown Tulsa....... would be agin' it..... cronyism!  Oh, the horror.

But enjoy Mayor Kathy "Window Dressing" Taylor's answers to Tulsa problems... which now includes a stand-alone ballpark built entirely by taxes...

Not me.

I started this TulsaNow thread back when Lafortune was Mayor...

http://www.tulsanow.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3370&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=baseball

[Rico]

Here is an article that puts a lot of things both current and past in perspective..

To my way of thought, regarding Downtown, there have been no wasted opportunities. No spilt-milk... just a continuing evolutionary process..
The make "it rich" crowd could have slapped together some prefab facade and called it urban and Downtown all they liked.... it wouldn't have made it so.

from the Journal Record.

http://www.tulsabusiness.com/article.asp?aID=46736&page=1
 

The Urban Planning Game
Stephen Hillman
2/4/2008

Urban Planner Jack Crowley is charged with envisioning a way to take all the players in downtown development and turn them into a win for revitalization.

And, that includes working out a way to bring the new piece on the board, the city's proposal to develop a stadium for the Tulsa Drillers downtown, into play.

"It's a giant chess game," Crowley, who is special adviser to the mayor on urban planning, said. "It's an opportunity of a lifetime for downtown. The trend across the country is to bring these facilities downtown. We have a 90-day window, and part of making financing feasible is determining how can you stretch it and maximize the income from related facilities. That is where we are headed."

Mayor Kathy Taylor announced Jan. 22 the city had a four-month exclusive agreement with Drillers owner Chuck Lamson to negotiate on a city-owned stadium, which has been estimated to cost no more than $70 million.

The 6,000-seat ballpark would be on the east side of downtown between Elgin Avenue and the IDL, and Fourth and Sixth streets.

Taylor said the city is considering private funding, lease money from the Drillers and public financing for the project, but stressed whatever options are chosen will not impact street repair funding. One option includes raising the hotel-motel tax, which stands at 5 percent, for a defined term.

A Learning 'Bump'

Crowley is the perfect person to bring on board to support Tulsa's redevelopment.

A former Tulsan and OU graduate, Taylor and OU-Tulsa President Gerard Clancy, M.D., forged a strategic partnership to bring Crowley to Tulsa and loan him to the city as a special adviser to the mayor.

Crowley, who has served as dean of the College of Environmental Design at the University of Georgia from 1996 to 2006, joined the faculty at OU-Tulsa as a visiting professor in the College of Architecture.

His career as a planner spans three decades and began with work in Lawton and Seminole. He has been chief planner for the Oklahoma State Park System, executive director of the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission and director of the Oklahoma Department of Transportation. Crowley also served for seven years as vice president of Williams Realty in Tulsa to develop multiple public/private partnerships.

With undergraduate degrees in architecture, business and art history, a master of regional and city planning, and a Ph.D. in urban geography, all from the University of Oklahoma, Crowley's first priority will be to coordinate the City's revitalization efforts in downtown. He will also lend his expertise to help enhance planning for the city's mass transit efforts. Crowley will also provide support for the development of PlanIt Tulsa, the new Comprehensive Plan for the City.

"Having been here for 18 years and then on and off for the last 12 years as a consultant for Williams, I have seen Tulsa full time and then I have seen it in time lapse, so the learning curve isn't going to be difficult," Crowley said.

Since he came on board in early January, he said he has been "reconnecting with the people I have dealt with and the new people that have entered" the downtown revitalization effort.

"That's what I have been doing for the last three weeks on a fairly intensive basis, and then I work late at night and try to take these ideas and put them in graphic form," Crowley said. "A lot of times when people are asked to support something, if there is not a very clear picture of it then it is difficult for them to support. What I find myself doing is taking these ideas and tying them all together and then drawing a very clear picture of how they can be mutually supportive."

Crowley said the mayor's principal challenge for him is the revitalization of downtown and the connection of downtown to the Arkansas River.

"The two are interconnected," he said. "The success of downtown is going to be in a large part attached to how the river relates to it because that is one of the great assets of Tulsa. If you are going to get residential downtown, and a lot of other things, then you are going to have to figure out how to connect it to one of the principal green corridors".

Dot on the Map

After years of little or no growth downtown, Crowley points to a number of areas of new development.

"You have had a pretty strong but scattered approach to developing the Brady and the Blue Dome Districts. Those have come along pretty much on their own, but it is tough for the people doing that because there is not a lot of critical mass, they are developing it themselves," he said. "Now 2025 comes along and the Route 66 corridor, which is kind of a tourism attraction, and you have the BOk Arena and the subsequent expansion of the Tulsa Convention Center – that's a very substantial project, a big dot on the map."

In conjunction with those developments, Crowley sees potential for the stadium to take place.

"You can't just assume that the day after that thing opens that there is going to be a high-rise hotel next to it," he said. "But I think that you will see a lot of quick responses, such as the potential for surrounding it with residential and entertainment right in the immediate vicinity of the ballpark, and that may even take place as a part of the original development."

"The key is to design that field and develop it so it accommodates surrounding development, and not design it so that you have to try to make outside development fit later on," he said.

Crowley said part of his assignment is to help develop a master plan for downtown.

"I think the game plan is going to end up being – how do you reinforce the Blue Dome and the Brady districts, and how do you connect the arena to it so the arena visitor can take advantage of what is already there on the ground and the new restaurants that some of the developers in those districts are already planning," he said. «

[USRufnex]

I remember that thread.
http://www.tulsanow.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3370

I also remember there were MANY POSTS that were later erased after you started that thread....

What a convenient coin-key-dink.  [:O]

Here's my response from 6/27/07.... over a year from the start of that thread.....

------------------------------------------------

Just pointing out that the initial post was bumped from 3/13/06... there were quite a few posts from that initial discussion that were  deleted...

Last fall, we all assumed the ballpark was going to simply replace the soccer stadium initially proposed by Global Development...

Now this?

quote:Tulsa's Director of Economic Development, Don Himelfarb, is working with the Drillers on a possible move. They're considering several locations downtown and one spot on the river, but won't yet say exactly where.  "They're coming either adjacent to downtown or downtown itself."

The owner of the Drillers told FOX23 News he would prefer to move the team to a downtown location, something city officials are excited about.

Himelfarb says, "It's just going to bring alive nightlife and restaurants and other entertainment venues. It's the perfect prescription for bringing downtown alive."

---------------------------------------------

And the Drillers owner says he would love to have the new stadium built by 2010, but he's not yet sure who's going to pay for it.

Interesting to hear the Drillers' are "not yet sure who's going to pay for it," since we all assumed the ballpark was going to be part of a TIF district financed "anchor" for a mixed-use development.

Sales taxes are just not going to fly for the ballpark alone (Driller Park has been renovated and is not falling apart), or at the very least, they'd have to be tied to the current river proposal somehow...

And when Don Himelfarb says things like, "It's just going to bring alive nightlife and restaurants and other entertainment venues. It's the perfect prescription for bringing downtown alive," methinks he exagerates... and I'd think exactly the same way if he said this about a soccer/football stadium...

Bricktown gets a boost on event days from both the AT&T ballpark and the Ford Center... but Bricktown pre-dates all the new downtown stuff in OKC... build the ballpark in the wrong spot in downtown Tulsa and it simply won't do much of anything-- people will go to the game, buy Cinemark-priced concessions and then drive straight home... just like they do at the fairgrounds now... and once the stadium's newness wears off...?

Drillers' owner Chuck Lamson once said that a new downtown ballpark would double attendance.  I'm not sure whether attendance would actually double or not... but the more important point is that I believe a new ballpark would effectively double revenue for the Drillers for at least 3-5 years... the Drillers shouldn't have to resort to as many free tickets/seat upgrades for those years and a portion of the extra $$$ the Drillers would realize could be used to help pay for the stadium rather than the increase in salary and travel expenses for a move to triple-A.

BTW, Driller Park isn't the oldest stadium in the Texas League... that honor goes to Wichita's Lawrence-Dumont Stadium, built in 1934 through the WPA...

The two best examples of new stadiums for Texas league teams would be the brand new one in North Little Rock across from their downtown that replaced the circa 1932 Ray Winder Field... http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/minors/050630bizbeat.html

quote:The team and local leaders had been at an impasse over how much the Travelers would contribute to pay off the ballpark's construction bonds. The parties reached an agreement that called for a 20-year lease with successive five-year renewal options. The Travelers will use gate receipts, concessions, advertising and luxury seat revenue to operate the club and stadium and make minor capital improvements. After those expenses, the Travelers and North Little Rock will split remaining revenue.

The new ballpark would be part of a 22-acre development with condominiums, restaurants, shops and offices. The ballpark would sit on 11.6 acres, purchased for $5.8 million by Little Rock financier Warren Stephens last summer. Stephens donated the land in exchange for naming rights for the ballpark.

Drawings show the ballpark next to the Broadway Bridge spanning the Arkansas River between North Little Rock and Little Rock, the state capitol. The 7,000-seat ballpark, with luxury boxes and an outfield berm, would open on a view of the Little Rock skyline.

------------------------------------------------

The Travelers have played in 6,083-seat Ray Winder Field since it opened in 1932, but the ballpark has long been in need of major improvements and has been granted waivers by Major League Baseball to allow the team to keep playing there.

... and the new privately funded ballpark in downtown Springfield, MO...
http://www.ballparkreviews.com/springmo/springmo.htm

[TheArtist]

I think that area of downtown will slowly begin to get more new stuff regardless of there being a baseball stadium there. However the baseball stadium will jump start even more development and on a quicker timeline. Some of that development and others downtown will benefit from one more attraction bringing people to downtown. The "synergy" thing. The colleges expanding, OU medical, OSU Tulsa, TU, new museum, Arena, living coming online, new park and street/sidewalk enhancements, Race Riot Memorial,PAC, Jazz Hall of Fame, Greenwood Development, Mayfest, D-Fest, Tulsa Tough, etc. etc. Downtown really is looking up folks, its already busier and nicer than it used to be even just a couple of years ago. Every single new thing just adds to that.