Gotcha Capitalism

[FOTD]

"Fundamentally, "Gotcha Capitalism" is a story about the death of the price tag, about the constant bait-and-switch tactics that layer on fees and surcharges long after we're in a position to bargain over them. It's about rampant false advertising, about the explosion of small print and asterisks and about the seeming disappearance of federal authorities working to keep our marketplaces fair. It's about a threat to our economic system, which was designed to reward good companies with innovative products, low prices and smart employees, but now benefits cheating companies who hire the best liars and create the most misleading ads and confusing fine print."

http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/02/18/welcome-to-the-jungle-how-gotcha-capitalism-has-destroyed-the-american-social-contract/

The Bush leadership legacy may well be The Greatest Depression!

[cannon_fodder]

So Bush is responsible for small print in deals then?  Wow, I thought I saw tons of it when I signed up for AOL under CLINTON.  Gasp!  It must be Clinton that started the downfall of Western civilization.

Wait, here's an idea.  READ what you are agreeing to.  If you don't agree, don't make the deal.  If you don't want to read it, find someone without fine print or just don't buy it.

It doesn't take the government for people to buy the better product.  Other than the FDA, the FTC, the FCC, the entire commerce department as well as State agency's we only have a handful of other government entities protecting us from stupid.  A few more, just a few... and I know we'll be shielded from stupid for sure!

[edit]by the way, great source.  Their most recent poll has an amazing 4% voting for a Republican candidate for President. I'm sure their other writing is equally nuetral[/edit]

[FOTD]

Yes, the things that you learn in Econ 101 are not true in practice. Adam Smith would be pissed if he saw how his ideas were twisted and used as covers for what is now called "crony capitalism" "disaster capitalism" "predatory capitalism" etc. Deregulation and incestuous relationships with politicians have created a place where the consumer is left with very few protections or rights.
Identity theft (so easy a 10 year old can do it), for example has not been addressed largely because of the banking industry believes it is not good for business. So we all suffer, creating more stress and mental illness (which is where big Pharma steps in). Once again, the US is dead last in the G7 when it comes to consumer protections. Telecoms, cable, banking, insurance are largely legal extortion rackets. Try living without these oligopolies in today's world; we are over the proverbial barrel.

These crooks set a great example; no wonder the social fabric is unraveling and people are increasingly selfish and apathetic. This is perpetuated by our business leaders and politicians. If the system is crooked, why should we play by the rules? This is the primary cause of moral breakdown, not "liberal values" as some Ruthugs like to say.
Business ethics are not anymore....

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Yes, the things that you learn in Econ 101 are not true in practice. Adam Smith would be pissed if he saw how his ideas were twisted and used as covers for what is now called "crony capitalism" "disaster capitalism" "predatory capitalism" etc. Deregulation and incestuous relationships with politicians have created a place where the consumer is left with very few protections or rights.
Identity theft (so easy a 10 year old can do it), for example has not been addressed largely because of the banking industry believes it is not good for business. So we all suffer, creating more stress and mental illness (which is where big Pharma steps in). Once again, the US is dead last in the G7 when it comes to consumer protections. Telecoms, cable, banking, insurance are largely legal extortion rackets. Try living without these oligopolies in today's world; we are over the proverbial barrel.

These crooks set a great example; no wonder the social fabric is unraveling and people are increasingly selfish and apathetic. This is perpetuated by our business leaders and politicians. If the system is crooked, why should we play by the rules? This is the primary cause of moral breakdown, not "liberal values" as some Ruthugs like to say.
Business ethics are not anymore....

So do you believe that government should have regulatory power over private sector business?

[FOTD]

They always have in order to keep the playing field level.....

[cannon_fodder]

Since you are fond of Smith economics I assume you are then advocating for a deregulated system in which the government only interferes to correct market imperfections?  Which is goal in deregulating the vast majority of industries.  So you argue that in order to comply with Smith's doctrine of a hand off approach to economics we need more government in spite of the multiple specific government agencies in addition to civil remedies already available.

Seems like a weak position to e.

For Telecom I have:
Cricket
Verizon
ATT Wireless
Sprint
Boost
Virgin
T Mobile
To name just the cell providers off the top of my head.

For cable I have:
Cox
Direct TV
Dish Network
Broadcast
and other 'true' sat providers.  Not to mention the prospect of not needing TV.

For banking I have:
Arvest
BOk
Wells Fargo
ING
Bank of America
Stillwater
TTCU
Chase
UMB
OK Employees CU
F&M and others

Insurance I have:
Farmers
Liberty Mutual
All State
Geiko
Progressive
State Farm
AIG
and dozens of other choices.

An oligopoly is a small number of sellers in collusion to manipulate a market place.  All the industries you mentioned have amazing competition.  What's more telling, the markets you complain about are remain among THE MOST REGULATED in the country in spite of recent and ongoing deregulation.  

Before deregulation you had "the phone company" and "the cable company" that you dealt with, period.  Thanks to recent deregulation we now have plenty of choices and can readily compare prices (which vary greatly) and frequently switch providers.  What's more, new players enter the market constantly.  All signals that the market is functioning in spite of the industries remaining regulation.

So which is it?  Do you want less choices and government issues monopolies or are you enjoying the choice and freedom to shop and find the best deal that we have gotten from deregulation? It seems to me you are calling for more regulation while applauding the effects of deregulation.

[FOTD]

Best deal my butt....they're all in collusion to fix you.

The phone deal is between Verizon and ATT .....the TV deal is between satellite and cable and the insurance deal is between 2 carriers. The competitive pricing is gone. the choices are too similar.

The bank deal is inconvenience versus paying more fees....

[cannon_fodder]

So what you're saying is it is a vast inter-corporate conspiracy theory that is secretly perpetrated between companies that appear to advertise, compete and attempt take over of each other in conjunction with multiple federal and state agencies who collude to control prices in a restrictive market environment.

Gotcha.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

So what you're saying is it is a vast inter-corporate conspiracy theory that is secretly perpetrated between companies that appear to advertise, compete and attempt take over of each other in conjunction with multiple federal and state agencies who collude to control prices in a restrictive market environment.

Gotcha.

Well let's see.....lobbying does help pull it all together.

[cannon_fodder]

So it is an inter-corporate conspiracy made possible by collusion with the government.

And more government is the answer.

Do you see the problem with your argument?

[FOTD]

No. More efficient government is the answer.

And it's not a conspiracy theory. It's reality.

Our system is screwed up.....

[cannon_fodder]

Ahh, so government caused the problem, but MORE government will solve it.

Do you know what you call it when someone does the same thing over and over expecting a different result?

I have abstained from responding to your dribble for a very long time.  Today I tried to reason with you.  It is impossible.  Subtle things wrong with your argument:

1. The items you listed are plentiful in competition and NOT oligopolies as you discussed.

2. The items you listed have gained competition since deregulation, not due to further regulation as you stated.

3. Smith only advocated for government interferences to correct market imperfections, NOT to keep marketplaces fair as you surmised.

4. You took the illogical position that government caused the problems but more government will solve them.

5. As the conspiracy grew to include multiple corporations, cross industrial channels, and the government you found it MORE plausible.  

Please put this amount of effort into something useful.  You never raised a single argument nor pointed to a shred of evidence to support your contentions.  Hell, for that matter the easily stated facts directly contradict your contention.

Please, for the 5th time.  Use this time to go take an economics course so you can at least intelligently discuss your conspiracy theories in the future.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

They always have in order to keep the playing field level.....

For that, you frighten me.  

This goes beyond discussion of free market economics and descends into socialist, communist and/or fascist theory.

I have gone back and read many of your previous threads and have come to the conclusion that logical discussion about capitalist economic theory is not possible with you because you are in no way a capitalist.

I really don't care how you wish to label yourself, your posts provide the label that we will extend to you.  

You hate "big business" (which is just a code name for "success").  

You want to "level the playing field" so that those who have devoted their lives to ambitious and successful endeavors are treated no better than the loafers.

You drip with hatred for the people and positions that this country is built on.  . . . and are willing to adopt wild and outlandish conspiracies to strengthen your venom.

You consistently trash this forum with garbage articles and angry posts that serve no purpose but to scare off logical discussion.  

CF stands up to you every day and makes you look like an angry child.  

You actually make me like Obama less, just because he appeals to people with your mindset.  

All that said, there is nothing wrong with being a liberal.  I'm glad that you spend your day posting your opinions.  I think you serve as a force to expose to some fledgling liberals what happens when you take the liberal mindset too far.  

I notice that you have a small group of fans who are busy developing their own political philosophies, I encourage you to continue your rants and display to them what happens when you remove logic and personal responsibility from philosophical debate.  

"That's all I've got to say about that."

[joiei]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

So Bush is responsible for small print in deals then?  Wow, I thought I saw tons of it when I signed up for AOL under CLINTON.  Gasp!  It must be Clinton that started the downfall of Western civilization.

Wait, here's an idea.  READ what you are agreeing to.  If you don't agree, don't make the deal.  If you don't want to read it, find someone without fine print or just don't buy it.

It doesn't take the government for people to buy the better product.  Other than the FDA, the FTC, the FCC, the entire commerce department as well as State agency's we only have a handful of other government entities protecting us from stupid.  A few more, just a few... and I know we'll be shielded from stupid for sure!

[edit]by the way, great source.  Their most recent poll has an amazing 4% voting for a Republican candidate for President. I'm sure their other writing is equally nuetral[/edit]

A lot of people seem to of forgotten that there was a Bush before there was Clinton.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

They always have in order to keep the playing field level.....

For that, you frighten me.  

This goes beyond discussion of free market economics and descends into socialist, communist and/or fascist theory.

I have gone back and read many of your previous threads and have come to the conclusion that logical discussion about capitalist economic theory is not possible with you because you are in no way a capitalist.

I really don't care how you wish to label yourself, your posts provide the label that we will extend to you.  

You hate "big business" (which is just a code name for "success").  

You want to "level the playing field" so that those who have devoted their lives to ambitious and successful endeavors are treated no better than the loafers.

You drip with hatred for the people and positions that this country is built on.  . . . and are willing to adopt wild and outlandish conspiracies to strengthen your venom.

You consistently trash this forum with garbage articles and angry posts that serve no purpose but to scare off logical discussion.  

CF stands up to you every day and makes you look like an angry child.  

You actually make me like Obama less, just because he appeals to people with your mindset.  

All that said, there is nothing wrong with being a liberal.  I'm glad that you spend your day posting your opinions.  I think you serve as a force to expose to some fledgling liberals what happens when you take the liberal mindset too far.  

I notice that you have a small group of fans who are busy developing their own political philosophies, I encourage you to continue your rants and display to them what happens when you remove logic and personal responsibility from philosophical debate.  

"That's all I've got to say about that."

Gaspar, is there a Socialist, Fascist, Communist under every bed? Must we continue to hear rants to that effect everytime Capitalism is critiqued? And for gawd's sake, the world isn't bifurcated into Liberals and Conservatives. Its a continuum with people sprinkled all over it. Your obsession with labelling people and placing them into convenient mail slots just makes you sound like a political functionary. FOTD makes people, like you and CF, think...defend...and analyze. You should be thanking him.

And another thing for you economic geniuses. I don't like excessive govt. intervention either. But you ignore the fact that although there are no formal oligopolies (thats a tough one to spell) these huge companies do indeed share executives, lobbyists, and board members. They golf, drink, cheat, travel and attend seminars together. But somehow you think they cut each others throats? Loyalty is a laugher for these guys.  Business at the corporate level is an informal process of checks and balances that negates the competitive process. Its Washington without the burden of re-election. Somehow, products, quality and price all seem to be remarkably similar with the appearance of marketing territories that are the result of gentlemen's agreements. If they're real successful they whore out to a government job in a regulating agency. But, honestly, there's no official collusion. Really. Honestly.

I just bought a Hamilton Beach Wave Machine blender that was built in China and imported through a Mexican company to America. It broke on its first use. Upon inspection the design, using plastic and hard rubber gears, ensured its failure. How it ever made it to market is amazing, but even more amazing is how stupid I was to trust an old American brand whose only goal was to reduce price cause the buyer is stupid and won't notice till we cash the check. They were right.