Bad Streets My Fault - I'm Sorry

[Conan71]

$30 a month really wouldn't screw with my personal budget that much, but I can see where that really is a disproportionate tax on lower income families.  I'm assuming those costs will be charged to all apartment complexes as well which will result in higher rents, so no family will be immune from paying their share.  So as not to pass along those costs to tennants, THA will have to find additional funding elsewhere.

The water bill seems to be the newest smash and grab tax vehicle for our city.  I do feel it's not quite fair to place the entire burden on people who live in the city limits.  People from BA, Owasso, and Jenks commute in on these roads every day.

[FOTD]

Tulsa has been becoming a tale of two cities for several years now. This additional tax would increase the disproportional disposable incomes and make that tail longer between the two societies. And then what are the consequences? More jail space? Much higher costs to supplement social services?
The hardships on those that can least afford it makes the authors look either insensitive or ignorant. Do they not realize inflation is running at %12!

[Conan71]

I don't know about tale of two cities, but this is a good example of a flat rate tax on every citizen which is disproportionately punitive on the lower income.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

From the Tulsa World

Hefty utility hikes would be needed if a proposed City Council plan to fix Tulsa's streets is put into action.

Wastewater rates would jump 141.7 percent and stormwater fees would go up 53.6 percent, both over a 10-year period, a Public Works Department analysis shows.

The projected increases, when fully in effect, would translate to an additional $341.88 per year for a single-family residence.

The increases would be necessary to make up for the capital funding to maintain and expand the wastewater and stormwater systems that has been traditionally provided by the third-penny and general obligation bond packages.

"We need to do a better job of matching the expenses with the revenue," Councilor Bill Martinson said in an interview Friday.

"What's been happening is that we've had lower water rates, but we've been subsidizing them by not taking proper care of our streets."

Martinson has made a "Back to Basics" pitch to repair Tulsa's crumbling street system by relying mainly on existing taxes.

His plan would raise more than $1.6 billion for streets between 2010 and 2020.

A component of his proposal is to dedicate all future third-penny and general obligation bond funding to streets.

The council's streets subcommittee, led by Martinson, has been busy determining where the usual recipients of funding from those two sources would be able to make it up.

A Public Works analysis indicates the city's wastewater rate, which is $3.05 per 1,000 gallons, would have to increase over 10 years, reaching to $7.37 per 1,000 gallons.

The average single-family residence uses about 6,000 gallons per month.

So a family's annual bill would go from $219.60 now to $530.64 by the 10th year.

Similarly, the stormwater fee, which is a flat $4.79 per residence, per month, would go up to $7.36. That's a jump from $57.48 per year to $88.32.

The increases also would apply to businesses. Inflation was not factored into the calculations.

"One way or another, we're going to have to pay more to fix our streets," Martinson said.

During a meeting on the subject earlier this week, Councilor Cason Carter questioned how the Tulsa rates would compare with those of surrounding cities at the end of the 10 years.

Public Works Department Assistant Director Ken Hill replied that it's impossible to predict how much other cities would increase their own rates during that period but said Tulsa's current rates are lower.

Another aspect of Martinson's proposal is to capture the city's portion of Tulsa County's Four-to-Fix and Vision 2025 sales tax shares when they expire.

It also would raise the city's property tax levy by 3.3 mills to be in line with Oklahoma City's.

The latest analysis of Tulsa's arterial and residential streets gives them an average "D" grade on the Pavement Condition Index, which was developed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

The streets will soon reach a failing grade if no additional money is allocated.

A city-sponsored "Complete Our Streets" residents panel has recommended significant sales and property tax increases to bring the city's streets to an average grade of a "C," to maintain that level and to do some priority widening.

But Martinson and the subcommittee have been exploring ways to limit the financial burden on taxpayers. They expect to have a plan of action formulated by this spring.

Brian Barber 581-8322

Ouch!

Don't be fooled, the self-serving "analysis" by the City Publik Werkes department is just a scare tactic to maintain the status quo.

What their analysis ASSUMES is that the city spend rate, including $100,000,000's expended on drainage and storm water management, would have to CONTINUE at their historical rate.

It is a false assumption.

When the Bird, Joe, and Mingo Creek drainage projects were completed, they are DONE. Finished.

And,

NOT an on-going capital expenditure needing more Third Penny Sales tax funding.

The Publik Werkes analysis is bunk.

And, Councilor Martinsen is probably smart enough to figure it out like I did.

Or, if he's co-opted by the local power establishment, then he can just join the Yassa-Boss Echo Chamber, controlled by the local Oligarchy power establishment which wants another $1.6 billion in new taxes.

Simple Reason:  They need to feed their greed.

Always.


 []

[FOTD]

FB! It's the Public Diswerks Department. Other than that correction, once again you understand the deep dark underbelly of our city. Let's hope whatever we are confronted with takes care of this for another generation. The role of our city government is not to provide public structures that will cause losses the day they are opened...and the future city hall better put blinders on when TulsaWhirled and the Chamber tells them anything....

[RecycleMichael]

When Bear and FOTD agree...how wrong they must be.

Drainage projects do require ongoing maintenence work. All things require upkeep and maintenence. To say they don't is either foolish or lying. Mowing prices have gone up substantially with rising fuel costs and inlets do get clogged with debris like the many limbs from our December storm.

And to your comment about the reason to fix streets is greed...unbelievable. Who on that panel of volunteer citizens will benefit from better streets any more than all Tulsans?

Your outragious accusations are misguided and your attacks on hard-working civil servants are uncalled for.

You must lead a miserable life to really believe what you write on this forum. The fact that you just attack others and never provide solutions assures me that you don't care to fix anything, but feel compelled to attack all who do.

I certainly hope that you someday appreciate all the work that others do to make Tulsa succeed. Hundreds of public works employees make sure that your water is safe to drink, that your home is safe from flooding, and that your trash is picked up.

I guess you must not need to have a sanitary sewer that works. I forget, bears poop in the woods.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

When Bear and FOTD agree...how wrong they must be.

Drainage projects do require ongoing maintenence work. All things require upkeep and maintenence. To say they don't is either foolish or lying. Mowing prices have gone up substantially with rising fuel costs and inlets do get clogged with debris like the many limbs from our December storm.

And to your comment about the reason to fix streets is greed...unbelievable. Who on that panel of volunteer citizens will benefit from better streets any more than all Tulsans?

Your outragious accusations are misguided and your attacks on hard-working civil servants are uncalled for.

You must lead a miserable life to really believe what you write on this forum. The fact that you just attack others and never provide solutions assures me that you don't care to fix anything, but feel compelled to attack all who do.

I certainly hope that you someday appreciate all the work that others do to make Tulsa succeed. Hundreds of public works employees make sure that your water is safe to drink, that your home is safe from flooding, and that your trash is picked up.

I guess you must not need to have a sanitary sewer that works. I forget, bears poop in the woods.

The stormwater fee was started to coincide with Fed funds for detention ponds. It was not supposed to be an ongoing tax.

Nobody has said anything against fixing the streets.

Some of us learned to not trust city hall because of their word going bad.

Hard working civil servants who fail need to be terminated and replaced with competent civil servants.

The public diswerks department has failed to protect my property from water, trash, noise, visibility issues and on and on. I drink bottled fiter water. Your personal attacks are off base. I agree we need to make the third penny permenant and GO bonding.

[V]Your post is unneccesarily over the top.

[RecycleMichael]

The stormwater fee came after a major flood in Tulsa. Federal funds were also sought.

The city of Tulsa stepped up and made Tulsa one of the most flood-proof cities in the country and were able to convince the feds to pay for over 90% of it.

You are right. My above post was over the top. I apologize to you. Bears just make me crazy.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

The stormwater fee came after a major flood in Tulsa. Federal funds were also sought.

The city of Tulsa stepped up and made Tulsa one of the most flood-proof cities in the country and were able to convince the feds to pay for over 90% of it.

You are right. My above post was over the top. I apologize to you. Bears just make me crazy.

Cool. No doubt storm water management and the corp of engineers solved the mistakes made early on when our local governments allowed housing development in flood plains. Convincing the Feds back then was easier than it would be today....the fee was originally meant to be temporary until all the projects were finalized at which time there would no longer be a fee. At least that was the politcal talk of the time. Back when we had a street and sewar commisioner who was responsible to all areas not just his district. Back in the day when the city wasn't broken. Some of the issue always had to do with collecting enough to fund a project and the timing of the reimbursements from the Feds. I don't think the city ever had a surplus in this account until all the detention areas were constructed in the original plan. I still wonder if the city uses this portion of their revenues to fund other areas of the city.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

When Bear and FOTD agree...how wrong they must be.

Drainage projects do require ongoing maintenence work. All things require upkeep and maintenence. To say they don't is either foolish or lying. Mowing prices have gone up substantially with rising fuel costs and inlets do get clogged with debris like the many limbs from our December storm.

And to your comment about the reason to fix streets is greed...unbelievable. Who on that panel of volunteer citizens will benefit from better streets any more than all Tulsans?

Your outragious accusations are misguided and your attacks on hard-working civil servants are uncalled for.

You must lead a miserable life to really believe what you write on this forum. The fact that you just attack others and never provide solutions assures me that you don't care to fix anything, but feel compelled to attack all who do.

I certainly hope that you someday appreciate all the work that others do to make Tulsa succeed. Hundreds of public works employees make sure that your water is safe to drink, that your home is safe from flooding, and that your trash is picked up.

I guess you must not need to have a sanitary sewer that works. I forget, bears poop in the woods.

Relax. Take a pill. Nitroglycerine handy?

RecycleMichael's doing a comparison of apples and oranges.  Again.

When a bar ditch or natural creek is converted into a sloped, concrete-encased drainage canal,
then the 3rd Penny Capital expenditure is OVER.

There may be minor city OPERATING budget expenses to mow or clean a drainage culvert, street drain,or a storm drainage retention pond, but this is minicule compared to paying for heavy equipment operators, dump trucks and concrete trucks to build drainage INFRASTRUCTURE using 3rd Penny Sales tax.

As to the panel of esteemed, learned citizens, they benefit because they are part of a connected FAVORS-TRADING network that runs our city government, including Boards, commissions and authorities.

Cameron and Reynolds, anyone?  Land attorneys running the Water Board?  Setting water policy to subsidize fresh clean water piped to Owasso and Bixby for the next 40 years?

WHAT a DEAL!

Developer flacks like Joe Westervelt running the TMAPC?

Nordam-connected Ms. Kissy-face Meridith Siegheil running the TAIT?

Maybe I'll start to believe that our local Goobermint is a Government Of, For and By the people, rather than a self-serving, Favors-trading network for connected cronies of the local power ruling Oligarchy, when Mr. Michael Bates is appointed to the TMAPC.

Waiting........

Waiting........

Waiting.........

[:O]

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

If that's the deal in ten years, I will move from Tulsa. I know many others will too.

I thought we had an abundance of water in Green Country? Pirates!

This proposal keeps sounding better! []

This water issue is in depth and on topic here:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9211

(just to avoid duplicate threads)

[RecycleMichael]

I think the bear has gone rabid.

I am talking about stormwater and you are talking about people who deal with drinking water.

Apples and oranges back at ya.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I think the bear has gone rabid.

I am talking about stormwater and you are talking about people who deal with drinking water.

Apples and oranges back at ya.

That's cherry picking.

I'm talking about a local Favors-Trading network that picks our pocket 24x7 to benefit a small, elite cadre of the local power establishment, and their allies in the local development and builder community.

The Publik Werkes department study is still fundamentally flawed.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

I'm talking about a local Favors-Trading network that picks our pocket 24x7 to benefit a small, elite cadre of the local power establishment, and their allies in the local development and builder community.

The small, elite cadre...are they like little elves that only you can see?

If I had someone who picked my pocket 24x7, I think I would change to an outfit without pockets...maybe just carry my money around in a ziplock bag.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

I'm talking about a local Favors-Trading network that picks our pocket 24x7 to benefit a small, elite cadre of the local power establishment, and their allies in the local development and builder community.

The small, elite cadre...are they like little elves that only you can see?

If I had someone who picked my pocket 24x7, I think I would change to an outfit without pockets...maybe just carry my money around in a ziplock bag.

Even if you were clothed in aluminum foil, you couldn't keep the tax vampires from penetrating your pocket.  It's all about tiny incremental tax increases:

-8.517% combined city/county/state tax including one of the few states to tax groceries.
-State Income Tax
-Advalorem Tax
-Social Security Tax
-Medicare Tax
-Phone tax
-Local e-911 Tax
-Land Line 911 tax
-Cable TV Franchise Tax
-Franchise and Sales Tax on Natural Gas and Electricity
-Gasoline Tax
-Kaiser River Tax

Oops, cancel the last one.  Maybe later.

Had enough?

Upcoming taxes:

Kaiser River Tax II, III, and IV

Vision 2055

followed by

Vision 2075

14th Renewal of the 3rd Penny "Temporary Sales Tax" in 2050.

MAPS for Mothers (Oklahoma City's 2050 version of the MAPS "temporary" sales tax renewal).

[8D]