County Tries Police Cams

[MH2010]

Sorry pooh bear....

I've already seen the video.  All of the officers invovled were suspended and will face criminal charges. Which is exactly what would happen if a bunch of civilians did the same thing. What exactly would you want done to them?  Shot on the spot? They lost control and went beyond the scope of their duties and will be prosecuted for it.

The bullets are legal for civilian and police use.
Police use the ammo largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation.

You should probably go back to the Mayor Taylor thread now.

[MH2010]

Not that it excuses the behavior of the officers but I guess it should also be noted that the Philly officers are a little stressed out as a result of the killing Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski


Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski
Philadelphia Police Department
Pennsylvania
End of Watch: Saturday, May 3, 2008

Biographical Info
Age: 39
Tour of Duty: 12 years
Badge Number: 486

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Saturday, May 3, 2008
Weapon Used: Rifle; AK-47
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski was shot and killed while responding to a bank robbery call at approximately 11:30 am.

Three men dressed in female Muslim garb had robbed a Bank of America on Aramingo Avenue. Sergeant Liczbinski encountered the suspects on East Schiller Street and stopped their car. As he exited his patrol car, a suspect opened fire with an AK-47, striking Sergeant Liczbinski several times. Several citizens who witnessed the incident rushed to assist Sergeant Liczbinski, wrapping his wounds in an effort to stop the bleeding. Sergeant Liczbinski told them "tell my wife I love her", before he fell into unconsciousness. Another officer and a citizen carried Sergeant Liczbinski into a patrol car and he was transported to a local hospital, where he died from his wounds.

The suspects continued to flee, but crashed their vehicle. Two suspects fled and a third suspect stole another vehicle, but was shot and killed by responding K-9 officers. One suspect was arrested the following day and an arrest warrant was issued for a third suspect.

Sergeant Liczbinski had served with the Philadelphia Police Department for 12 years. He is survived by his wife and three children.

Agency Contact Information
Philadelphia Police Department
One Franklin Square
Philadelphia, PA 19106

Phone: (215) 686-1776

Please contact the Philadelphia Police Department for funeral arrangements or for survivor benefit fund information.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Not that it excuses the behavior of the officers but I guess it should also be noted that the Philly officers are a little stressed out as a result of the killing Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski


Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski
Philadelphia Police Department
Pennsylvania
End of Watch: Saturday, May 3, 2008

Biographical Info
Age: 39
Tour of Duty: 12 years
Badge Number: 486

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Saturday, May 3, 2008
Weapon Used: Rifle; AK-47
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski was shot and killed while responding to a bank robbery call at approximately 11:30 am.

Three men dressed in female Muslim garb had robbed a Bank of America on Aramingo Avenue. Sergeant Liczbinski encountered the suspects on East Schiller Street and stopped their car. As he exited his patrol car, a suspect opened fire with an AK-47, striking Sergeant Liczbinski several times. Several citizens who witnessed the incident rushed to assist Sergeant Liczbinski, wrapping his wounds in an effort to stop the bleeding. Sergeant Liczbinski told them "tell my wife I love her", before he fell into unconsciousness. Another officer and a citizen carried Sergeant Liczbinski into a patrol car and he was transported to a local hospital, where he died from his wounds.

The suspects continued to flee, but crashed their vehicle. Two suspects fled and a third suspect stole another vehicle, but was shot and killed by responding K-9 officers. One suspect was arrested the following day and an arrest warrant was issued for a third suspect.

Sergeant Liczbinski had served with the Philadelphia Police Department for 12 years. He is survived by his wife and three children.

Agency Contact Information
Philadelphia Police Department
One Franklin Square
Philadelphia, PA 19106

Phone: (215) 686-1776

Please contact the Philadelphia Police Department for funeral arrangements or for survivor benefit fund information.

When police order suspects to lay on the ground, do they realize they are going to star in a Police Stomp Dance?

What was really morbidly fascinating to watch in the Philadelphia Police Stomp Dance was it was so well correographed.

Like it was either very well Well-Rehearsed, or they had played the Stomp-Dance Gig together many, many times before.....

Do they teach the Stomp-Dance routine at their Police Academies?

Hmmmmmh?

Oh, and from your description, I take it the three stomped-on/clubbed/beaten suspects had NOTHING to do with the bank robbery/police shooting?

Nothing at all?

 [:O]

[MH2010]

Actually, most of the police officers were ineffective with their strikes.  If you want to see an effective mob beating you should watch the Reginald Denny beating video from the 1992 L.A. riots. Reginald barely survived it.  The piece of concrete and the cinder block were brutal.  Sometimes people do bad things.  

And like I said before, they were out of control and beyond the scope of their authority.  They will be prosecuted for their actions.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Actually, most of the police officers were ineffective with their strikes.  If you want to see an effective mob beating you should watch the Reginald Denny beating video from the 1992 L.A. riots. Reginald barely survived it.  The piece of concrete and the cinder block were brutal.  Sometimes people do bad things.  

And like I said before, they were out of control and beyond the scope of their authority.  They will be prosecuted for their actions.

Too bad for Mr. Denny that there were no police around to protect him.

Wonder if any of the LA rioters that beat him nearly to death were ever found or prosecuted?

The TV networks were the leading contributor to the riots.  They showed over and over and over again the video of Rodney King's beating in conjuction with the LA Policemen's acquittal in State Court of all charges.

I never saw the TV networks televise the entire film they'd captured of the Rodney King episode.  

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Actually, most of the police officers were ineffective with their strikes.  If you want to see an effective mob beating you should watch the Reginald Denny beating video from the 1992 L.A. riots. Reginald barely survived it.  The piece of concrete and the cinder block were brutal.  Sometimes people do bad things.  

And like I said before, they were out of control and beyond the scope of their authority.  They will be prosecuted for their actions.

The Philadelphia police are also notorious for giving prisoners "The Nickel Ride".

What's that?

Prisoners hand-cuffed behind their backs are transported unrestrained in the back of police vans.

The police driver intentionally slams on the brakes, or swerves erratically, and the un-belted prisoner goes flying.

Several are now Paraplegics due to Spinal Cord injuries suffered why transporting the prisoner.

Here's some details:

Rides in Police Vans Injure Suspects
Philadelphia -

"At least 20 suspects riding in the back of police vans in recent years suffered injuries ranging from a severed spinal cord to a broken tailbone, reflecting a long-standing tradition of officers using erratic driving to deal with apparently difficult suspects, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported.

Officers call the long-standing ritual a "nickel ride," a term dating to the days when amusement-park rides cost 5 cents.  Rookie officers learn about it as "part of your street training," said Norman A Carter Jr, a retired Philadelphia police corporal.

Although the city has paid more than $2.3 million to settle lawsuits filed by the arrestees, none of the officers has been disciplined for intentionally subjecting passengers to wild rides, the newspaper reported in early Sunday editions.  The city has also been slow to deploy potentially safer vehicles, the paper said.  Two people were permanently paralysed in city police vans.  Most of the 20 victims had clean records and were arrested on minor charges, such as talking back or arguing with police.

"That wagon changed a lot," said Gino Thompson, a father of 11 paralysed from the waist down.  "I can't play football with my kids.  I can't play basketball.  I was a gymnast, a singer, a dancer.  I did it a1l."

Thompson, 40, was arrested in 1994 after a drunken argument with a girlfriend.  He now relies on a wheelchair.  The city paid $600,000 to settle his lawsuit.  The newspaper found 19 similar cases, but reported that they probably represent a fraction of all wagon injuries.

Current and former officers say the erratic driving, in which the officer makes sharp turns, accelerates quickly or slams the brakes, is often falsely attributed to traffic, bad roads or a sudden stop made to avoid an animal.

James B Jordan, a lawyer who worked as the police department's in-house corruption monitor from 1996 through 1999, said officers use the "nickel ride" to assert control.  "What better way to show who's in control than stopping at a light and slamming on the brakes, knowing that they're going to go flying?" Jordan asked.  "And maybe the prisoner was yelling, and maybe this will shut him up."

Police Commissioner John F Timoney said he was not aware that officers would intentionally injure prisoners during transport.  "Such behaviour - if it does exist - certainly isn't condoned by myself or anybody else in this department," Timoney said.  "We are making efforts, as much as humanly possible, to reduce the number of incidents where prisoners get hurt in the back of these vans," he said.

Chief Inspector Frank M Pryor, head of the police department's patrol operations, said "nobody did anything about" the rough rides 30 years ago, but insists times have changed.  "If we see that happen, we're on it now," Pryor said.

Eleven of the 20 cases found by the newspaper, however, were never investigated by the department's Internal Affairs division.  Of the other nine incidents, the department suspended one officer for three days for infractions that occurred after the wagon ride, not for the injury itself.  The other eight resulted in no sanctions.

Some cities have phased out wagons or added safety restraints and padding, but only 10 of Philadelphia's 86 wagons have these safety features.  The other vehicles which transport tens of thousands of suspects per year, have a compartment made of fiberglass and plastic with narrow benches.

Calvin Saunders was transported in such a van in 1997 when he was arrested for driving a stolen car.  During the ride, he was propelled from his seat and rammed his head against a wall.  Now a quadriplegic, Saunders cannot feed, bathe or dress himself.  The city paid him a $1.2 million settlement to help cover his lifetime medical care."

Source: The Sunday Star-Ledger (Morris County NJ edition) 3 June 2001 from the Associated Press.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Actually, most of the police officers were ineffective with their strikes.  If you want to see an effective mob beating you should watch the Reginald Denny beating video from the 1992 L.A. riots. Reginald barely survived it.  The piece of concrete and the cinder block were brutal.  Sometimes people do bad things.  

And like I said before, they were out of control and beyond the scope of their authority.  They will be prosecuted for their actions.

The Philadelphia police are also notorious for giving prisoners "The Nickel Ride".

What's that?

Prisoners hand-cuffed behind their backs are transported unrestrained in the back of police vans.

The police driver intentionally slams on the brakes, or swerves erratically, and the un-belted prisoner goes flying.

Several are now Paraplegics due to Spinal Cord injuries suffered why transporting the prisoner.

Here's some details:

Rides in Police Vans Injure Suspects
Philadelphia -

"At least 20 suspects riding in the back of police vans in recent years suffered injuries ranging from a severed spinal cord to a broken tailbone, reflecting a long-standing tradition of officers using erratic driving to deal with apparently difficult suspects, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported.

Officers call the long-standing ritual a "nickel ride," a term dating to the days when amusement-park rides cost 5 cents.  Rookie officers learn about it as "part of your street training," said Norman A Carter Jr, a retired Philadelphia police corporal.

Although the city has paid more than $2.3 million to settle lawsuits filed by the arrestees, none of the officers has been disciplined for intentionally subjecting passengers to wild rides, the newspaper reported in early Sunday editions.  The city has also been slow to deploy potentially safer vehicles, the paper said.  Two people were permanently paralysed in city police vans.  Most of the 20 victims had clean records and were arrested on minor charges, such as talking back or arguing with police.

"That wagon changed a lot," said Gino Thompson, a father of 11 paralysed from the waist down.  "I can't play football with my kids.  I can't play basketball.  I was a gymnast, a singer, a dancer.  I did it a1l."

Thompson, 40, was arrested in 1994 after a drunken argument with a girlfriend.  He now relies on a wheelchair.  The city paid $600,000 to settle his lawsuit.  The newspaper found 19 similar cases, but reported that they probably represent a fraction of all wagon injuries.

Current and former officers say the erratic driving, in which the officer makes sharp turns, accelerates quickly or slams the brakes, is often falsely attributed to traffic, bad roads or a sudden stop made to avoid an animal.

James B Jordan, a lawyer who worked as the police department's in-house corruption monitor from 1996 through 1999, said officers use the "nickel ride" to assert control.  "What better way to show who's in control than stopping at a light and slamming on the brakes, knowing that they're going to go flying?" Jordan asked.  "And maybe the prisoner was yelling, and maybe this will shut him up."

Police Commissioner John F Timoney said he was not aware that officers would intentionally injure prisoners during transport.  "Such behaviour - if it does exist - certainly isn't condoned by myself or anybody else in this department," Timoney said.  "We are making efforts, as much as humanly possible, to reduce the number of incidents where prisoners get hurt in the back of these vans," he said.

Chief Inspector Frank M Pryor, head of the police department's patrol operations, said "nobody did anything about" the rough rides 30 years ago, but insists times have changed.  "If we see that happen, we're on it now," Pryor said.

Eleven of the 20 cases found by the newspaper, however, were never investigated by the department's Internal Affairs division.  Of the other nine incidents, the department suspended one officer for three days for infractions that occurred after the wagon ride, not for the injury itself.  The other eight resulted in no sanctions.

Some cities have phased out wagons or added safety restraints and padding, but only 10 of Philadelphia's 86 wagons have these safety features.  The other vehicles which transport tens of thousands of suspects per year, have a compartment made of fiberglass and plastic with narrow benches.

Calvin Saunders was transported in such a van in 1997 when he was arrested for driving a stolen car.  During the ride, he was propelled from his seat and rammed his head against a wall.  Now a quadriplegic, Saunders cannot feed, bathe or dress himself.  The city paid him a $1.2 million settlement to help cover his lifetime medical care."

Source: The Sunday Star-Ledger (Morris County NJ edition) 3 June 2001 from the Associated Press.

If the problem was that bad, why didn't the city install cameras in the vans.  Evidently the city believed it was not warranted. Either the injuries were a result of legitimate problems during transport or because of something else besides drivers hitting the brakes.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Actually, most of the police officers were ineffective with their strikes.  If you want to see an effective mob beating you should watch the Reginald Denny beating video from the 1992 L.A. riots. Reginald barely survived it.  The piece of concrete and the cinder block were brutal.  Sometimes people do bad things.  

And like I said before, they were out of control and beyond the scope of their authority.  They will be prosecuted for their actions.

The Philadelphia police are also notorious for giving prisoners "The Nickel Ride".

What's that?

Prisoners hand-cuffed behind their backs are transported unrestrained in the back of police vans.

The police driver intentionally slams on the brakes, or swerves erratically, and the un-belted prisoner goes flying.

Several are now Paraplegics due to Spinal Cord injuries suffered why transporting the prisoner.

Here's some details:

Rides in Police Vans Injure Suspects
Philadelphia -

"At least 20 suspects riding in the back of police vans in recent years suffered injuries ranging from a severed spinal cord to a broken tailbone, reflecting a long-standing tradition of officers using erratic driving to deal with apparently difficult suspects, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported.

Officers call the long-standing ritual a "nickel ride," a term dating to the days when amusement-park rides cost 5 cents.  Rookie officers learn about it as "part of your street training," said Norman A Carter Jr, a retired Philadelphia police corporal.

Although the city has paid more than $2.3 million to settle lawsuits filed by the arrestees, none of the officers has been disciplined for intentionally subjecting passengers to wild rides, the newspaper reported in early Sunday editions.  The city has also been slow to deploy potentially safer vehicles, the paper said.  Two people were permanently paralysed in city police vans.  Most of the 20 victims had clean records and were arrested on minor charges, such as talking back or arguing with police.

"That wagon changed a lot," said Gino Thompson, a father of 11 paralysed from the waist down.  "I can't play football with my kids.  I can't play basketball.  I was a gymnast, a singer, a dancer.  I did it a1l."

Thompson, 40, was arrested in 1994 after a drunken argument with a girlfriend.  He now relies on a wheelchair.  The city paid $600,000 to settle his lawsuit.  The newspaper found 19 similar cases, but reported that they probably represent a fraction of all wagon injuries.

Current and former officers say the erratic driving, in which the officer makes sharp turns, accelerates quickly or slams the brakes, is often falsely attributed to traffic, bad roads or a sudden stop made to avoid an animal.

James B Jordan, a lawyer who worked as the police department's in-house corruption monitor from 1996 through 1999, said officers use the "nickel ride" to assert control.  "What better way to show who's in control than stopping at a light and slamming on the brakes, knowing that they're going to go flying?" Jordan asked.  "And maybe the prisoner was yelling, and maybe this will shut him up."

Police Commissioner John F Timoney said he was not aware that officers would intentionally injure prisoners during transport.  "Such behaviour - if it does exist - certainly isn't condoned by myself or anybody else in this department," Timoney said.  "We are making efforts, as much as humanly possible, to reduce the number of incidents where prisoners get hurt in the back of these vans," he said.

Chief Inspector Frank M Pryor, head of the police department's patrol operations, said "nobody did anything about" the rough rides 30 years ago, but insists times have changed.  "If we see that happen, we're on it now," Pryor said.

Eleven of the 20 cases found by the newspaper, however, were never investigated by the department's Internal Affairs division.  Of the other nine incidents, the department suspended one officer for three days for infractions that occurred after the wagon ride, not for the injury itself.  The other eight resulted in no sanctions.

Some cities have phased out wagons or added safety restraints and padding, but only 10 of Philadelphia's 86 wagons have these safety features.  The other vehicles which transport tens of thousands of suspects per year, have a compartment made of fiberglass and plastic with narrow benches.

Calvin Saunders was transported in such a van in 1997 when he was arrested for driving a stolen car.  During the ride, he was propelled from his seat and rammed his head against a wall.  Now a quadriplegic, Saunders cannot feed, bathe or dress himself.  The city paid him a $1.2 million settlement to help cover his lifetime medical care."

Source: The Sunday Star-Ledger (Morris County NJ edition) 3 June 2001 from the Associated Press.

If the problem was that bad, why didn't the city install cameras in the vans.  Evidently the city believed it was not warranted. Either the injuries were a result of legitimate problems during transport or because of something else besides drivers hitting the brakes.

I don't live in Philadelphia, the City of Brotherly Love.  

I live in the Banana Republic of Tulsa.  I've never heard we have THIS problem.  Apparently, Tulsa prisoners are merely transported in our police cars, which have padded seats, padded doors, and maybe even seat belts.  

Luckily, I've never had nor want the opportunity to sit in the back seat of a TPD cruiser.

Phila. has long history of bad city government under long-serving former Mayor John Street. A bevy of their public officials have been charged with Federal crimes, and sent to prison.

Several quotes attributed to Mr. Street may help frame the quality of his city government:

"The Brothers Are Running The City", John Street uttered this quote right before the murder rate hit an all time high and his best friend was arrested.

" I'm not guilty; I'm Just Black And That Is Why They Are After Me", was the campaign slogan he used to rally supporters with in his successful second term reelection after rumours of corruption in city govt. reached city hall

As to WHY the Philadelphia police vans did not have restraints, it is obvious that the police knew exactly what they were doing, when they purposely slammed on the brakes to send a prisoner, handcuffed behind their backs, flying across the van because they were not belt-restrained in the van.

They had a long, long history of prisoners injured while being transported, going back 30 years.

And, being handcuffed BEHIND their backs, the prisoner had no way of holding on during their Journey to Jail.

As to motivation, psychological studies all the way back to Zimbardo show that when people in authority can abuse a prisoner without consequence, that the prisoner will be abused, with escalating levels of severity of violence.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Sorry pooh bear....

I've already seen the video.  All of the officers invovled were suspended and will face criminal charges. Which is exactly what would happen if a bunch of civilians did the same thing. What exactly would you want done to them?  Shot on the spot? They lost control and went beyond the scope of their duties and will be prosecuted for it.

The bullets are legal for civilian and police use.
Police use the ammo largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation.

You should probably go back to the Mayor Taylor thread now.

Actually, only a Sergeant and 5 officers have been removed from street duty.  The remainder?  TBA.

Back to the police use of explosive ammunition:

The Hague Convention of July 1899 specificially prohibits use of this type of ammunition in warfare:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

If the purpose of shooting a suspect is to disable them from endangering the police or public, a full metal jacket bullet should suffice.

The purpose of these explosive bullets is to increase the likelihood of inflicting a horrendous wound, and death.  That's why they were outlawed in 1899.

Maybe the police can someday afford the citizenry the same degree of protection that the Taliban or Iraqi insurgents are afforded from the use of explosive small arms ammunition.

Remember, the person being shot is still a suspect.  

Amadou Diallo was a SUSPECT, shot at 41 times; 19 hits.

wonder if the NYC plainclothes officers needed to use hollow-point or explosive ammunition on Diallo.  

Overkill?

[cannon_fodder]

I can shed a little light on the hollow point/explosive bullet debate.  In undergrad I took a course in international conflicts that was offered by my University's ROTC college. This was our interpretation of it based on comments made at the convention as well as the Colonels take on it:

From a practical standpoint killing an enemy soldier is bad business.  If you wound him such that he can no longer fight he is no longer a threat to you AND his comrades in arms have to deal with him.  When removed from the field his nation has to exhaust resources to see to his well being.  During a conflict, this is a net LOSS to the wellbeing of that nation (harsh, but cold hard truth).  So risk of wounding the soldier to such an extent that he can still fight is worth it given the added cost if he survives but can not fight.

Also as a practical application military engagements use larger and/or higher velocity projectiles form a great distance and have the ability to rapidly fire repeated rounds usually with the support of many more men.  Thus, the threat of a wounded man continuing the fight before he can be reengaged, should the need arise, is minimal.

Additionally, combatants in war in 1899 were not there voluntarily.    It was considered unfair (beneath civilized countries) to go to extremes and kill some poor bastard who happened to live in Prussia now who was being forced to fight Poland (who used to control his territory).  Through no fault of their own, these men were in harms way, poor them.  Though they still sent them off to fight...

Conversely, a criminal is presumably being shot at on his own accord.  There is no sympathy for the devil and thus, the risk of enabling him to be wounded such that he could still resist is not offset by any practical nor moral obligations.  Meanwhile, there is a substantial risk to officer in engaging a suspect (who very well may be on drugs/crazy) that a single round from a handgun will not incapacitate the suspect.  That risk is concurrent with a risk to the public of the suspect himself as well as the travel of a FMJ round.

As an aside, the 1899 convention also banned gas attacks and "bombing from the air."  That seems odd to me since gas was not a weapon nor air travel even possible at the time.  Both were, of course, readily ignored when they became viable.

The pertinent part of the Convention of 1868 which was adopted by the Hague Convention in 1899:

quote:Considering that the progress of civilization should have the effect of alleviating as much as possible the calamities of war:

That the only legitimate object which States should endeavour to accomplish during war is to weaken the military forges of the enemy;

That for this purpose it is sufficient to disable the greatest possible number of men;

That this object would be exceeded by the employment of arms which uselessly aggravate the sufferings of disabled men, or render their death inevitable;

[custosnox]

As far as hollow points go, I keep two differant types of hollows and then a general metel jacket.  In a situation in which there are others around beside the person you are shooting at, this comes in handy.  While the expanding, and fracturing bullets cause more damage to the person you shooting, it is less likely to exit the person and hit another.  i.e.  someone breaks into my house, I shoot them, if I have the normal full metal jackets, there is a good chance that not only will it exit the person I shot, but could go through a couple of sheet rock walls and hit someone else, like one of my kids.  If I use a fragmenting round (the one I primarly keep loaded), then it is highly unlikely to exit the person, and a missed shot has trouble going through a couple of panels of sheetrock, thus decreasing the chance of me accidently causing harm to one of my kids while trying to protect them.  While I would rather not have the situation come up at all, if it does, I want to protect my kids to the best of my abilities, even if it means causing extensive damage to the person that I am protecting them from.  This same logic applies to law inforcement applications.  A hollow point is far less likely to cause callateral damage then a full metal jacket.  So tell me bear, if you have someone ready to kill you, and he is between you and the cop, and the cop has to shoot him to save you, which round would you rather him have loaded?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by custosnox

As far as hollow points go, I keep two differant types of hollows and then a general metel jacket.  In a situation in which there are others around beside the person you are shooting at, this comes in handy.  While the expanding, and fracturing bullets cause more damage to the person you shooting, it is less likely to exit the person and hit another.  i.e.  someone breaks into my house, I shoot them, if I have the normal full metal jackets, there is a good chance that not only will it exit the person I shot, but could go through a couple of sheet rock walls and hit someone else, like one of my kids.  If I use a fragmenting round (the one I primarly keep loaded), then it is highly unlikely to exit the person, and a missed shot has trouble going through a couple of panels of sheetrock, thus decreasing the chance of me accidently causing harm to one of my kids while trying to protect them.  While I would rather not have the situation come up at all, if it does, I want to protect my kids to the best of my abilities, even if it means causing extensive damage to the person that I am protecting them from.  This same logic applies to law inforcement applications.  A hollow point is far less likely to cause callateral damage then a full metal jacket.  So tell me bear, if you have someone ready to kill you, and he is between you and the cop, and the cop has to shoot him to save you, which round would you rather him have loaded?

That's a pretty unlikely hypothetical.  

How about having our Police use ammunition that is at least sanctioned by the august bodies of the Hague and Geneva conventions regarding Small Arms ammunition?

Reason being:

With police increasingly militarized in the U.S., wearing Battle-Rattle, carrying U.S. military Full-Auto Assault Rifes, U.S. military Kevlar Helmets, driving armored cars and APC's, knocking down doors with No-Knock warrants like we do in the Sunni Triangle on an hourly basis, etc., then I feel it is BEST that the civilians be protected by only Full-Metal Jacketed bullets.

I think the police are about as likely to shoot me by accident anyway, so let's use a more humane bullet.

Mr. Bell in NYC was shot at 50 times for DWB (Driving While Black), and Mr. Diallo in NYC shot at 41 times (for Jumping out of his shoes when yelled out to "Freeze" outside his door by 4 plainclothes policemen).  

I hardly think it mattered if Hollow-Points or FMJ were used.

They were ventilated like Swiss Cheese.

Again, just how does a Suspect offer to Surrender when they are being shot at 41 times?

In the Bell case, one policeman even reloaded his 15 round magazine, and emptied the 2nd one, too.

[cannon_fodder]

FB, what was wrong with my analysis and citation to actual text of the document?  Like it or not, those reason are pretty sound and reflect the thought process that caused the rules to go into effect.  If you refuse to address the underlying concerns, it's really a non-issue from here on out.

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

I'm glad it's YOU and not ME insulting about 1/2 of humanity.  

Does the term "Manners" have any meaning to you?

None the less, I take the opprobrium as praise, given my naturally SWEET disposition, and FRESH perspective for bringing useful discussion to this exalted Forum.

Thanks again.

[^]

Which half is he insulting?  I'd like to verify the half to which I belong.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

I'm glad it's YOU and not ME insulting about 1/2 of humanity.  

Does the term "Manners" have any meaning to you?

None the less, I take the opprobrium as praise, given my naturally SWEET disposition, and FRESH perspective for bringing useful discussion to this exalted Forum.

Thanks again.

[^]

Which half is he insulting?  I'd like to verify the half to which I belong.

Which half.

The BETTER half, of course.

[:X]