Red meat: 1804 = $1.8 Billion

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Waterboy, way to completely avoid Gaspar's well-reasoned and thoughtful post.

And by the way, tell us more about this underground system of labor; because the way I see it, unless this illegal labor is occurring literally underground or otherwise out of the sight of the people, there is no place to hide. Plus, who wants to risk felony charges for merely assisting in this underground system.

Guarantee me that the state will actually PROSECUTE businesses that knowingly hire illegal aliens and put them IN THE SAME JAIL that they have reserved for illegals........ and not single out some nominal mexican restaurant.......

Yeah, right.  Like THAT would get republican support...

[inteller]

you know what I think is amusing is the article implying that we should resort to illegal labor so we don't lose 1.8 bill in productivity.

i swear, the same people that feed illegal labor are the same ones who fed this sub prime lending mess.....the SCUMMY DEVELOPERS AND THEIR CONSTRUCTION CONTRACTOR CRONIES!

[FOTD]

Don't they make illegal labor temporarily legal in California to pick the fruit and veggies you eat?

The Randy Terrible for governor campaign is coming to you for your contribution. Currently, it is not in the form of money.

Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD


Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?

I hate it when you make me agree with you FOTD.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by FOTD


Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?

I hate it when you make me agree with you FOTD.

Conan steps back, nods head in disgust...

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Don't they make illegal labor temporarily legal in California to pick the fruit and veggies you eat?

The Randy Terrible for governor campaign is coming to you for your contribution. Currently, it is not in the form of money.

Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?

no, I think it is time to go find the Americans in the statement "these are jobs that Americans won't do" and put their asses to work.

If we REALLY have a labor shortage and we have able bodied Americans on welfare who are NOT working, we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.

But I have a sneaky suspicion the people that blurt out that "these are jobs americans won't do" are really just the scum who prefer to not pay decent wages and engage in other forms on employment abuse.

The construction cronies in this state got caught with their pants down, so now they are throwing out these bull**** dollar numbers to try and get their wage slaves back.

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by inteller
[br we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.

Hello David Duke

JK, sure sounded like it though.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

quote:Originally posted by inteller
[br we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.

Hello David Duke

JK, sure sounded like it though.

do you want your produce picked by an American or an illegal?

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by inteller
no, I think it is time to go find the Americans in the statement "these are jobs that Americans won't do" and put their asses to work.

If we REALLY have a labor shortage and we have able bodied Americans on welfare who are NOT working, we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.

While I do not want to FORCE anyone to work, I think we seriously need to look at people who are sucking off our government programs (not people who NEED it, people who are sucking off of it) and reduce benefits to the point that it is advantageous to work. If you structure the system so a healthy person can sit at home with a roof, heat, and food and live perfectly comfortable... there is little incentive to work to achieve the same end.  

Working your way up or going past entry level to get a better life is a long term goal.  Too many people see in the short term that can do nothing and be about as good off.  If the government offered to sustain my lifestyle with the understanding that I wouldn't get a raise but could sit on my butt all day... it would be a very tempting offer.

quote:
But I have a sneaky suspicion the people that blurt out that "these are jobs americans won't do" are really just the scum who prefer to not pay decent wages and engage in other forms on employment abuse.

It's not that simple.  you can't just raise your wages on everything.  You can only pay someone so much to pick oranges, or people don't buy oranges, and then the packers are out of business, so are the truckers, and the growers.  Or steel workers... you can only pay a steel worker so much.  

When the steel workers demanded higher wages in the 1970's, they ended up with half the number of steel workers (and a death knell for the dominance of the American steel industry).  Same with much of the US manufacturing base, at a certain point the market passes on the labor and forgoes the product, has a machine do it, or goes elsewhere.  It's not a bad thing, it is the market seeking the most efficient means of production.  Which ultimately assures me the highest standard of living possible (if everything cost twice as much I could only consume half as much).

The fact is, as always, not as simple as we make it out to be.  A better statement would be "these are the jobs not enough Americans won't do at wages the market will bare."  Demand for most products is elastic, the market will not pay a hammer man $20 an hour.  Nor a McDonald's register jockey $15, nor a Walmart register associate $10.  People would sooner go without new homes, cook at home, or shop online.

quote:
The construction cronies in this state got caught with their pants down, so now they are throwing out these bull**** dollar numbers to try and get their wage slaves back.

These numbers are from the Bankers, not the construction company.  Please see my prior post and read the study before going off on it.  The conclusion was not 1804 bad, it was simply that 1804 costs the economy money.  Something the legislature surely knew going in but failed to quantify.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder



It's not that simple.  you can't just raise your wages on everything.  You can only pay someone so much to pick oranges, or people don't buy oranges, and then the packers are out of business, so are the truckers, and the growers.  Or steel workers... you can only pay a steel worker so much.  

When the steel workers demanded higher wages in the 1970's, they ended up with half the number of steel workers (and a death knell for the dominance of the American steel industry).  Same with much of the US manufacturing base, at a certain point the market passes on the labor and forgoes the product, has a machine do it, or goes elsewhere.  It's not a bad thing, it is the market seeking the most efficient means of production.  Which ultimately assures me the highest standard of living possible (if everything cost twice as much I could only consume half as much).

Not picking on you CF, your quote was a great jumping off place for my thoughts.

It's an interesting dichotomy.  On the one hand, we want a solution for welfare, don't want jobs going overseas (or across the border), and don't wan't illegal aliens picking our cabbage.  

On the other, no one wants to pay higher prices for goods to ensure jobs stay here and are manned by legal citizens.

Americans love a bargain and seem to biznitch even more about the means by which they get that bargain.

When quality between items is percieved to be equal or near it, the majority of consumers are generally going to gravitate to the lower price.  If that weren't the case, sale ads in the paper wouldn't have a published price, now would they?  Think of all the sale ads you see or hear during the week.  American consumers are, to a great extent, price driven.

I know I don't give a whole lot of thought to who picked my produce or cut up the dead cow or pig I'm buying.  Fact of the matter is, unless you grow or raise all your own produce and meats you have zero control over whether or not it was harvested, butchered or processed by legal U.S. citizens or not.  

[tim huntzinger]

Here is something sort of along this vein.  CEO of at&t sez that it is hard to find 'skilled' workers in Merca to do customer service, sooooo that is why he still has 5k workers in Bangladesh.  (STORY)

What this idiot is saying is that third world workers are the only ones he can find to work in their slaveshop call centers?  Not for those wages and under those conditions.  And these are not highly skilled BS in Electrical Engineering jobs.  These are jobs that require rudimentary typing skills and the ability to think.

As far as the bankers and their bogus study, they need to **** or produce names of business hurt by their illegal employment practices.  Those companies should have to pay back taxes and every fee that law-abiding companies have to.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder
These numbers are from the Bankers, not the construction company.  Please see my prior post and read the study before going off on it.  The conclusion was not 1804 bad, it was simply that 1804 costs the economy money.  Something the legislature surely knew going in but failed to quantify.

well who do you think loans the construction cartels money to build homes no one needs?

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

quote:Originally posted by inteller
[br we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.

Hello David Duke

JK, sure sounded like it though.

do you want your produce picked by an American or an illegal?

I don't think I've ever given two sh*ts either way.

edit - if it makes it to my table and I can afford it, I'm fine with whomever will do the job.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by inteller
no, I think it is time to go find the Americans in the statement "these are jobs that Americans won't do" and put their asses to work.

If we REALLY have a labor shortage and we have able bodied Americans on welfare who are NOT working, we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.

While I do not want to FORCE anyone to work, I think we seriously need to look at people who are sucking off our government programs (not people who NEED it, people who are sucking off of it) and reduce benefits to the point that it is advantageous to work. If you structure the system so a healthy person can sit at home with a roof, heat, and food and live perfectly comfortable... there is little incentive to work to achieve the same end.  

Working your way up or going past entry level to get a better life is a long term goal.  Too many people see in the short term that can do nothing and be about as good off.  If the government offered to sustain my lifestyle with the understanding that I wouldn't get a raise but could sit on my butt all day... it would be a very tempting offer.

quote:
But I have a sneaky suspicion the people that blurt out that "these are jobs americans won't do" are really just the scum who prefer to not pay decent wages and engage in other forms on employment abuse.

It's not that simple.  you can't just raise your wages on everything.  You can only pay someone so much to pick oranges, or people don't buy oranges, and then the packers are out of business, so are the truckers, and the growers.  Or steel workers... you can only pay a steel worker so much.  

When the steel workers demanded higher wages in the 1970's, they ended up with half the number of steel workers (and a death knell for the dominance of the American steel industry).  Same with much of the US manufacturing base, at a certain point the market passes on the labor and forgoes the product, has a machine do it, or goes elsewhere.  It's not a bad thing, it is the market seeking the most efficient means of production.  Which ultimately assures me the highest standard of living possible (if everything cost twice as much I could only consume half as much).

The fact is, as always, not as simple as we make it out to be.  A better statement would be "these are the jobs not enough Americans won't do at wages the market will bare."  Demand for most products is elastic, the market will not pay a hammer man $20 an hour.  Nor a McDonald's register jockey $15, nor a Walmart register associate $10.  People would sooner go without new homes, cook at home, or shop online.

quote:
The construction cronies in this state got caught with their pants down, so now they are throwing out these bull**** dollar numbers to try and get their wage slaves back.

These numbers are from the Bankers, not the construction company.  Please see my prior post and read the study before going off on it.  The conclusion was not 1804 bad, it was simply that 1804 costs the economy money.  Something the legislature surely knew going in but failed to quantify.

In theory you're right and of course anyone going through business college is taught those fundamentals. But if you hang around long enough you find the few professors, with real life experience, that will share with you the fallacy of the process.

Supply and demand work fine as long as there isn't collusion and administered pricing. We have both. As you pointed out there is just a certain amount we will pay cashiers, even if there are very few with skills to operate the register. That is an end run around the economic law of s&d. Homeland closed up shop, changed their name and then rehired their cashiers at lower wages back in the 80's just to "stay competitive".

This occurs at all levels but CEO where suddenly, good executives are so hard to find that they must be paid hundreds of millions to run companies that practically run themselves. You see, wages can be raised, just not at certain wage levels. In Europe, Microsoft is a bully punished for their monopolistic practices that lead to such abominations as Vista operating systems. Here, we shrug our shoulders and acknowledge Gates as an altruistic genius. Go figure. Of course that's also why oranges cost more there but people don't mind like we do here. Why? Because they are part of the process of increasing wages that accompany increasing prices. We are not. Is inflation out of control in Europe? Well it hasn't made big news if it is. Yes they have slackers too but they long ago learned how to manage immigration.

Let me give you a real life example that I saw yesterday. A good employee of a medical lab is offered a better job with more responsibility at a supervisory level. When she took her current position the dept. was a shambles. She organized it, created harmony between fellow employees, followed the rules and made the area efficient. Five years later she gets her annual raise of around 3%. Barely covers yearly inflation. She always gets good reviews but no other recognition. The new job will require she work her skills once again, but...involves no pay raise. Times are tough you know. Meanwhile white collar execs did real well this year. Think she took the job? Think this is an aberration? No on both accounts.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Don't they make illegal labor temporarily legal in California to pick the fruit and veggies you eat?

The Randy Terrible for governor campaign is coming to you for your contribution. Currently, it is not in the form of money.

Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?

no, I think it is time to go find the Americans in the statement "these are jobs that Americans won't do" and put their asses to work.

If we REALLY have a labor shortage and we have able bodied Americans on welfare who are NOT working, we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.

But I have a sneaky suspicion the people that blurt out that "these are jobs americans won't do" are really just the scum who prefer to not pay decent wages and engage in other forms on employment abuse.

The construction cronies in this state got caught with their pants down, so now they are throwing out these bull**** dollar numbers to try and get their wage slaves back.

Exactly.